Honest opinions on Shores of Hell and Inferno?

[Orchid87]

34 minutes ago, jerrysheppy said:

If I remember my Doom bible correctly, originally the first Hell episode was going to be E2 (entered directly from the Tei Tenga [Phobos] anomaly) and then you'd emerge from it into the corrupted Deimos [or whatever they called it] base for E3.  I'm assuming that's what's meant.

Kind of like what was made later in Doom 3, isn't it? base -> hell -> corrupted base

 

Also, I disagree on Doom 2. In my opinion it has way more consistent texture work and level design that Doom 1, if we compare D1 as a whole and not just KDiTD. The only really ugly Doom 2 map that I can think of is The Citadel. But I might be subjective because I love The Chasm, lol.

[magicsofa]

13 hours ago, Orchid87 said:

I've noticed a fairly recent trend of people criticising Doom 2 for having too many Sandy maps.

 

I don't think that's recent at all, people have been crapping on Sandy maps without proper context for years. Others have also been defending his maps for that time. Mainly by noting that he made a lot of maps in a short time, while having no previous experience with 3D mapping. He was also given all those Tom Hall maps to finish which makes it hard to really criticize him fully for those ones since the base was already there.

 

I'd wager that the majority of people who have played through Doom 2 never learned who made which levels and don't care because they had fun playing the game and are not sitting around here on Doomworld digging up information. Doom 2 levels overall have a more consistent theme (brown) and on a casual playthrough you would probably have a very hard time guessing when a level was made by a different mapper. The level of technical polish is higher across the board with Sandy's maps included, which makes sense as they were all a little more experienced and had Doom 1 as a reference point. Personally I find E2 and E3 to be pretty good, and Doom 2 is also pretty good if a little long-winded. It is hard to compare them gameplay-wise because of the added elements, but to be honest I find some of the bizarre Sandyisms in Doom 2 to be a nice break in the formula. His maps certainly didn't prevent Doom 2 from being a commercial success. I think people who aggressively criticize these maps are just jealous that their name isn't on the most important FPS of all time!

["JL" was too short]

7 minutes ago, magicsofa said:

He was also given all those Tom Hall maps to finish which makes it hard to really criticize him fully for those ones since the base was already there.

For me the issue with this "defense" is that, as I pointed out, the Tom Hall-based maps are usually the more consistently good (or at least nostalgically cherished) of the "Sandy maps".  As far as I'm aware, you don't get crap like E2M9 or MAP21 until Sandy starts trying to set out on his own.

[Gifty]

Doom's level design is funny because there's a little bit of a divide between what I would consider the really well-designed maps, and the ones that have actually come to define the game in modern memory. When game critics laud Doom, they always jump to mention the playful and abstract level design as its standout artistic trait, when the maps that most exemplified that were often, in my opinion, some of the weakest. Knee Deep in the Dead is much closer to what most people today would identify as good shooter level design, but it's also not the material most people (in the medium at large, not necessarily Doom nerds) think of when they're fondly remembering the game. This gets even more extreme in Doom 2, where most of the really solid maps are also the most visually drab, and the more striking designs vary REALLY wildly in quality.

 

Really reinforces the Id-software-as-rock-band analogy; when you've got someone like Sandy throwing out weird abstract jazz-oddysey sound shapes, you want a really rock-solid rhythm section behind him to keep things grounded.

Edited February 22 by Gifty

[magicsofa]

1 hour ago, jerrysheppy said:

For me the issue with this "defense" is that, as I pointed out, the Tom Hall-based maps are usually the more consistently good (or at least nostalgically cherished) of the "Sandy maps".  As far as I'm aware, you don't get crap like E2M9 or MAP21 until Sandy starts trying to set out on his own.

I feel that you are cherry picking. The Tom & Sandy show is about as consistent as Sandy alone:
 

E1M8: Phobos Anomaly------- objectively bad map

 

E2M1: Deimos Anomaly-------  acceptable, not great
E2M2: Containment Area------  people complain about this one a lot (I like it personally)
E2M3: Refinery-----------------  meh
E2M4: Deimos Lab-------------  memorable because of the opening room, that's it

E2M7: Spawning Vats---------- OK this one's a banger

E3M3: Pandemonium----------- pretty good
E3M7: Gate To Limbo----------  awful

The only collaboration map they have in Doom 2 is Map10 (Refueling Base) which is a good one, for sure. So together I would say it's about 50/50. By himself, yes he produced those flops you mentioned, but also some of the most badass and memorable maps such as E3M6 and Map28. Again, probably about 50/50. I think it is also relevant that he was more experimental, unlike Romero who always played it safe. Don't get me wrong, I love E1 to death, but there is never a time in E1 where you think "well this is original." It's the same formula every time and it works... Peterson on the other hand was more willing to take creative risks, and I would argue that his style has informed the more zany and psychedelic side of modern mapping just as much as Romero's clean-cut style has reminded us to take a step back sometimes and focus on serviceability.

[Lisaancelle]

1 hour ago, magicsofa said:

I think people who aggressively criticize these maps are just jealous that their name isn't on the most important FPS of all time!

 

Or maybe they just have an opinion you don't share. it's not always jealousy (technically envy). Just saying. 

["JL" was too short]

41 minutes ago, magicsofa said:

I feel that you are cherry picking.

And I feel like you just have a different view than me on a lot of these maps (which of course you are entitled to, but if we can't agree on what makes a good vs. a bad IWAD map, then it's going to be hard to agree on whether or not Sandy was a good mapper).

E3M7, for instance, is to me a fine map by the IWAD standards.  Visually, the texturing trends a bit monotonous, but if you look at it from the editor or map view you can tell it was made with the involvement of someone who gave a shit about creating an immersive dungeon-crawl-type exploration map.  If that isn't to someone's taste, they won't like it, but at the very least I have no reason to consider it badly done.

 

[Plerb]

E2 is my favorite episode of Doom 1. I like maybe half of the maps in E3.

 

2 hours ago, magicsofa said:

By himself, yes he produced those flops you mentioned, but also some of the most badass and memorable maps such as E3M6 and Map28.

It was recently (re)discovered that Tom Hall actually started E3M6, and there's an unused map made for Doom 1 that ended up being part of MAP28, which might have been started by Tom as well. :P

[Maximum Matt]

3 hours ago, magicsofa said:

there is never a time in E1 where you think "well this is original."

[Doom-X-Machina]

3 hours ago, magicsofa said:

E3M7: Gate To Limbo----------  awful

Literally THE single worst map in all the IWAD's.
I reckon being hung, drawn and quartered would be more enjoyable.

[Noiser]

Sandy made E2M6! Cool dark section, the fake exit, the narrow claustrophobic tunnels. This and E2M4 are the most atmospheric levels of the game imo.

[LadyMistDragon]

Shores of Hell is good, by and large. I could do without the Intermission Music in Refinery, and Fortress of Mystery just flat out sucks but I actually don't quite agree with the consensus on Command Center. It's a bit too large for its own good but there's nothing that imo, is really bad about it. Whereas my opinions on... Deimos Lab tend to seesaw somewhere between genuine creepiness and kind of goofy, but I'll always think that about "They're Going to Get You" and you'll never change my mind!

 

Inferno is not quite as bad as other people make it out to be meanwhile. Ok, the teleporting of Unholy Cathedral might be dis-orienting but if you pay attention (I sure didn't when I first played it:P), you'll realize there's a certain order to where the teleporters take you. The central area is honestly nice-looking and the section with the crushers was quite fun as well. Limbo is obviously much harder to defend, but it's also not terrible, at least until it comes time to find the yellow key. 

 

But we'll just talk about the first two maps. Hell Keep was a map I really liked back in the day since we're immediately deposited in an empty brown field with dead trees that really sets the tone - but of course, nothing else really lives up to it. Slough of Despair on the other hand, was kind of cool to me back in the day for it's portrayal of a dead world and the music naturally, but looking back, it's a sloppy, mean and not exactly fun mess. But other than Dis obviously, I have no serious issues with the other maps. Still, it manages to be the weakest of the original three. 

[Maximum Matt]

12 hours ago, magicsofa said:

E3M7: Gate To Limbo----------  awful

When talking in context of Tom Hall's input, I'm pretty sure he simply did the big opening room and that's it - it's basically a full Sandy map.  

[magicsofa]

18 hours ago, jerrysheppy said:

And I feel like you just have a different view than me on a lot of these maps (which of course you are entitled to, but if we can't agree on what makes a good vs. a bad IWAD map, then it's going to be hard to agree on whether or not Sandy was a good mapper).
 

 

Of course we have different tastes. My point is more that I think the anti-Sandy crowd can get a little out of hand. There are objective reasons to respect him as a mapper, and there are also good reasons to not put such a high standard on IWAD maps. None of these maps can hold a candle to modern masterpieces. The Meta has progressed so much, as well as the tools. Also people can spend a year or more crafting the perfect episode/megawad.

I'm also giving the maps he made (with Tom or not) about a 50% pass rate in terms of just "do I like it." So it's not like I'm claiming he was the best mapper - it just annoys me when people go OMIGOD E2M9 SO BAD ONLY SANDY WOULD DO THIS TO US. I agree that it's a throwaway map, but considering all the other factors it is pretty excusable. Romero gave us 8 of the same apple and they were all pretty good. Sandy gave us an orange, a banana, a grapefruit, an egg, and a tomato. Some were good, some were not so good. I don't really like grapefruit but I'm down with that banana. So in conclusion, I appreciate his creativity even if the results are janky.

[Jayextee]

17 minutes ago, magicsofa said:

Romero gave us 8 of the same apple and they were all pretty good. Sandy gave us an orange, a banana, a grapefruit, an egg, and a tomato. Some were good, some were not so good. I don't really like grapefruit but I'm down with that banana. So in conclusion, I appreciate his creativity even if the results are janky.

This is great, absolutely excellent way of describing what it is precisely about Sandy Petersen that makes him my personal favourite of the OG mappers.

One thing to always bear in mind is how high-concept he is as a level designer, presumably from his background in tabletop gaming and (I assume) GM'ing; in such a game for example, were the GM to tell a party "you're back where you started, everything's the same" and have that mini-scenario play out to "you think you've reached the exit, again, but THE WALLS DROP TO REVEAL THE NASTIEST MONSTER YOU'VE FOUGHT SO FAR" would've been hype as fuck, possibly a highlight of a campaign between friends. But instead, the medium changed from the physical to the virtual, you get E3M9 and it hits different. Or concepts like "monsters aren't the real danger here, the floor itself is and you've only a finite amount of protection against it" being executed as the ever-unpopular E3M7 (which I personally like, and think people are wrong about, for exactly this reason). Love or loathe his approach, he tried things dagnammit. And although Romero was consistently solid with his OG maps, I'd probably say most of the really memorable experiences (for better or worse) came from Sandy.

[Rymante]

Shores of Hell is OK, I actually rather like E2M1 & E2M6.  Not to mention the Cyberdemon remains an imposing foe even today, even though E2M8 gives you plenty room to dodge & plenty cover from it's rockets.

 

Inferno.......ehhhh.  I think E3M6 is the only map I like for it's open ended, outdoors-y nature, but even that map isn't amazing.

 

Enough has been said about E3M5 & E3M7's............questionable design.  I'm honestly not that hot on E3M1 (& by extension, E3M9) either, but for opposite reasons, too simple & straight-forward instead of mazes with annoying design decisions that have you traipsing back & forth across the map with not much exciting happening in between.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

22 hours ago, magicsofa said:

E1M8: Phobos Anomaly------- objectively bad map

Is it? Seems like it was the perfect way to end the shareware with a cliff hanger to get people to buy the rest of the game.

[magicsofa]

37 minutes ago, Cruduxy Pegg said:

Is it? Seems like it was the perfect way to end the shareware with a cliff hanger to get people to buy the rest of the game.

It's just a Hall. The cliff hanger is cool and the Barons are cool. But the map itself is quite boring without those elements.

[drygnfyre]

On 2/22/2024 at 7:10 AM, Foodles said:

What do you mean? Was the episode order meant to be different from what it ended up as?

Based on the press release beta, yes. And frankly, the narrative works better this way. You die at the end of Episode 1, then you wake up in Hell. You fight your way through Hell, and make it back to Deimos. But then you find out Hell has managed to escape, and it's made its way to Earth, setting up Doom 2. This was the order used in Doom 3 and works better. From a gameplay standpoint, this also makes the cyberdemon the final enemy you encounter, and hitscan aside, it's just a tougher fight than the spider mastermind.

 

Doing it this way and making no changes would have resulted in a few oddities, like getting the BFG before the plasma gun. And arguably some easier maps being played later. But I've always liked playing the game this way.

[drygnfyre]

On 2/22/2024 at 5:46 PM, LadyMistDragon said:

It's a bit too large for its own good

I made a thread a long time ago about the layout of this map, and specifically how I felt it didn't really hide the secret exit very well. But reading this comment, I've started to realize how it's actually done pretty well. IIRC, the map has no keys, and tons of doors. So I was thinking about how its large design is likely designed to fatigue. You just keep opening doors and entering rooms, not giving them much thought. Only when you go into random monster closet #whatever do you happen to notice a switch that activates a ramp leading to a teleporter. But on a typical play through, it might be very easy to miss this.

 

It's not my favorite map, but I think it's large size works well for what I think it was trying to do.

Edited February 24 by drygnfyre