Where is the limit between full keyboard and keyboard-mouse ?

[apichatpong]

Very naïve question... General opinion says (with reason) keyboard only offers less speed in movements, less maniability... and so may be more difficult. I don't really want to discuss this : for some personal reasons I know I won't leave "keyboard only" even though I know people who started keyboard only and went to keyboard/mouse never came back...

I know some hard stuff have been beaten keyboards only : Speed of Doom for instance (I know that, nowadays,  it's not considered as hard as it was 15 years ago, but still.. it's hard)...

 

What are the hardest maps/wads beaten (UVmax) keyboards only ?

For people who, at some point, played both : intuitively, where would you put the limit ? What kind of wads are unbeatable with only keyboard ?

 

I'm asking this question because, this morning, I downloaded Firefly and my right (or left ? idk) brain told me : "man, this one you won't beat with just keyboard !" (and maybe I'm wrong ! (I know that, at least  for me, it's a skill issue before a question keyboard/mouse (even if they are interconnected)))

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

Playing keyboard only always puts the player at a disadvantage. I don't think it makes sense looking for some static limit of what's possible because players' determination and practice will always prove me wrong sooner or later. Could something like Sunlust be beaten keyboard only? I'd can't imagine. But I'd never imagine the entire Scythe or SoD to be possible to beat on UV keyboard only, and they were. Remarkable achievements. 

[Kappes Buur]

IMO, the only map which is unbeatable, or at least manageable, with keyboard only is one where monsters do not frag the crap out of you. 

 

So, play only on skill 1 with as few monsters as possible.

[apichatpong]

35 minutes ago, Sneezy McGlassFace said:

I don't think it makes sense looking for some static limit of what's possible because players' determination and practice will always prove me wrong sooner or later.

 I'll guess it's fair to say that !

 

35 minutes ago, Kappes Buur said:

So, play only on skill 1 with as few monsters as possible.

You're right, that's what I mostly do !

 

Re-reading my question, I'm starting to think that, unconsciously, it was a twisted way to convince myself to give a chance to the mouse/keyboard combo...

[Shepardus]

Plenty of challenging WADs have been beaten keyboard-only (like Speed of Doom, as you said). Movement-focused maps (e.g. platforming) are probably the most problematic for keyboard-only players. Glides in particular require mouse movement since they use movement values below walking speed to nudge players into gaps, so I wouldn't expect something like Glidancer to ever be beaten keyboard-only. Maps requiring rapid rotation (e.g. NoYe MAP24) or precise aiming (e.g. GOODWAD MAP09) are also going to be a lot more difficult for keyboard players.

[Murdoch]

You are wanting an objective answer to something which is fundamentally not measurable. A good keyboard player will do better than a bad keyboard and mouse player. But honestly, the best thing to do is learn to play with mouse and keyboard. Don't expect to be good at everything right away. That's just not how life works. Be patient and practice. It really is not that difficult to master, and will become second nature before too long if you stick with it.

Edited March 10, 2024 by Murdoch

[Catpho]

Basically what shep said. As a fellow kb-only player, beyond some very technical hard maps (or gzdoom stuff that requires freelook), you can play 99% of releases in a given year with kb-only.

[apichatpong]

12 minutes ago, Shepardus said:

Plenty of challenging WADs have been beaten keyboard-only (like Speed of Doom, as you said). Movement-focused maps (e.g. platforming) are probably the most problematic for keyboard-only players. Glides in particular require mouse movement since they use movement values below walking speed to nudge players into gaps, so I wouldn't expect something like Glidancer to ever be beaten keyboard-only. Maps requiring rapid rotation (e.g. NoYe MAP24) or precise aiming (e.g. GOODWAD MAP09) are also going to be a lot more difficult for keyboard players.

 

Thanks ! Nice "limit" examples (and made me discover GOODWAD, strange stuff it is !!!)

 

6 minutes ago, Catpho said:

Basically what shep said. As a fellow kb-only player, beyond some very technical hard maps (or gzdoom stuff that requires freelook), you can play 99% of releases in a given year with kb-only.

 

Thanks also, give me some hope ! (even if I never felt really discouraged !)

 

9 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

You are wanting an objective answer to something which is fundamentally not measurable. A good keyboard player will do better than a bad keyboard and mouse player. But honestly, the best thing to do is learn to play with mouse and keyboard. It really is not that difficult to master, and will become second nature before too long if you stick with it. Don't expect to be good at everything right away. That's just not how life works.

 

It's the second thread I open with a question like that, a bit open (and, to some level, a bit silly), my idea is not to have an objective answer but just subjective feelings from diverse people with diverse way to play the game...

I know Doom is an impressive limit pusher : "You really think I can't beat this map !?" "You really think I can't beat this map just punching ?!" "You really think I can't beat this map without firing single shot ?!" "You really think I can't kill 800 cyberdemons with only 1800 cells ?!", "You really think I can't play Doom on my microwave !?" etc so, Sky is the limit

[Andromeda]

56 minutes ago, apichatpong said:

You really think I can't kill 800 cyberdemons with only 1800 cells

This might actually be impossible :P

[apichatpong]

14 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

This might actually be impossible :P

sorry, I was hiding a thing, here : Kill 800 cyberdemons with 1800 cells... and one hundred revenants on a ground where you can't come back once left (thinking of the strategy by ZeroMaster to UVmax Nuts)

Edited March 10, 2024 by apichatpong

[DNSKILL5]

I find that the limits between the two are easier noticed through multiplayer and are more blurry for single player.

I used to play keyboard-only as it was how I played growing up, but as I got older and more interested in deathmatch, I very quickly gravitated towards keyboard and mouse.

 

It was weird and awkward at first, primarily it was learning to reutilize the keyboard with one hand while the other hand is using the mouse for turning movements and shooting. It took practice and repetition to get accustomed to this setup, but eventually it just clicked and I was able to greatly improve my deathmatch skills and easily adapted to using this control scheme in single player, and now I don’t see much need to revert back to keyboard only.

 

I have played the game keyboard only on some laptops more recently if I don’t have an external mouse to use. I could equate it to like learning to ride a bike. Once you learn, you never forget. Still, I have come to prefer how I control the game via mouse + keyboard. 

Edited March 10, 2024 by DNSKILL5

[apichatpong]

2 minutes ago, DNSKILL5 said:

I find that the limits between the two are easier noticed through multiplayer and are more blurry for single player.

I used to play keyboard-only as it was how I played growing up, but as I got older and more interested in deathmatch, I very quickly gravitated towards keyboard and mouse.

 

It was weird and awkward at first, primarily it was learning to reutilize the keyboard with one hand while the other hand is using the mouse for turning movements, shooting, and opening doors. It took practice and repetition to get accustomed  to this setup, but eventually it just clicked and I was able to greatly improve my deathmatch skills and easily adapted to using this control scheme in single player, and now I don’t see much need to revert back to keyboard only.

 

I guess (never tried DM) the difficulty is related to the one I have with the doom marine on scythe II (not impossible but annoying).

[Meerschweinmann]

Depends on the person who plays and the keyboard.

 

A DOOM Keyboard has no disturbing Windows keys that came up with Win95, a wide space key and should be able to press more than four Keys simultaneously without PC speaker beeping :).

90s DOOM players should know what i mean.

 

Yes, when playing DOOM with keyboard there are disadvantages in turning, but a good keyboard player learns to live with that. In the 90s my friends and me were all Keyboard players. Later with DOOM legacy some friends played wasd and mouse. But because of that they were not automatically the best players in deathmatch LANs.

 

Today i've been playing with mouse too, because i can not play keyboard only with todays keyboard layouts and i am more used with it today.

 

Here is a photo of my good old Cherry Keyboard. My old Love with AT connector :) ❤️

 

Spoiler

 

One thing that came in my mind. Our 486 and early Pentium Computers had a character rate or something option in BIOS setup. When the keyboard supported the fastest setting DOOMs playability was even better.

Edited March 10, 2024 by Meerschweinmann

[Noiser]

Keyboard-only movement is more often like driving a car than moving a person, especially when you need to turn quickly. But despite the clear disadvantage, It's also pretty fun and respectively moody as it puts some constraints to your mobility. I recommend it on some spooky\horror themed wads!

[Beginner]

22 hours ago, apichatpong said:

What are the hardest maps/wads beaten (UVmax) keyboards only ?

Off the top of my head gggmork, vdgg and TheV1perK1ller did some serious maps, you can search their demos/videos on dsdarchive or Youtube if you want to. My information is old as hell though, maybe there's some other keyboard-only prodigy out there.

I wouldn't recommend jumping from zero to hardest stuff there is right away, though. There's insurmountable mountain of content that's far more manageable and interesting beyond "too tough for this particular control method" and if I were you I'd rather not be too worried about it. With enough experience, you, probably, will be able to tackle even that type of levels, too. Also, I would like to recommend playing in ports that have "quick 180" bind.

[apichatpong]

34 minutes ago, Beginner said:

Off the top of my head gggmork, vdgg and TheV1perK1ller did some serious maps, you can search their demos/videos on dsdarchive or Youtube if you want to. My information is old as hell though, maybe there's some other keyboard-only prodigy out there.

I wouldn't recommend jumping from zero to hardest stuff there is right away, though. There's insurmountable mountain of content that's far more manageable and interesting beyond "too tough for this particular control method" and if I were you I'd rather not be too worried about it. With enough experience, you, probably, will be able to tackle even that type of levels, too. Also, I would like to recommend playing in ports that have "quick 180" bind.

 

Didn't know these three were keyboards ! Thanks

 

I already started with hard stuff two years ago, nearly 100% cheating, now I restart from"zero" and find my way without frustration, even if I don't get there, i'll still enjoy hardcore stuff in some other way.

[idbeholdME]

A fellow keyboard only player here.

 

Played a ton of WADs, and still have yet to find one I couldn't beat on UV -fast on a keyboard.  Mind you, I only play regular stuff, no gimmicky movement platforming maps and whatnot. The most important thing I can recommend is getting a mechanical keyboard to avoid hitting the input limit.

 

Someone said keyboard only feels like controlling a car, I'd argue the opposite. I really dislike how the game feels and plays when you can turn by mouse flicking without restrictions, doing 180s in 0.1 seconds and the like. The turning speed on keyboard only is the perfect fit for Doom gameplay IMO.

[ReaperAA]

The biggest advantage the mouse provides over keyboard-only play is the faster turning speed, which corresponds to better reaction time when flanked from behind, and better movement control

 

Doom (and even Wolfenstein 3D before it) already supported kb+mouse gameplay style, but because of the heavy autoaiming and the lack of vertical looking, the kb-only play isn't in too much of a disadvantage over a kb+m player compared to post-1996 FPS games, but it is still at least slightly disadvantageous.

 

Unless you are really sure that you can never adapt to kb&m scheme, I think it is definitely worth it to give it a shot. You will struggle initially, even suck. But eventually, you will get better as you become mor comfortable with the control scheme.

 

I used to play Doom, Heretic, Hexen with keyboard only controls as a kid and used arrow keys for movement. Now I use WASD + mouse, and I simply can't go back to the old keyboard-only scheme anymore.

Edited March 11, 2024 by ReaperAA

[apichatpong]

5 hours ago, idbeholdME said:

Someone said keyboard only feels like controlling a car, I'd argue the opposite. I really dislike how the game feels and plays when you can turn by mouse flicking without restrictions, doing 180s in 0.1 seconds and the like. The turning speed on keyboard only is the perfect fit for Doom gameplay IMO.

 

4 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

The biggest advantage the mouse provides over keyboard-only play is the faster turning speed, which corresponds to better reaction time when flanked from behind, and better movement control

 

I understand  the two points of view, only  the perspective are different. It all depends on what you play : when Noiser said keyboards is like "moving a car" he just considered it's slower than human movement (right angle move, for instance), but relative to some specific situations in some doom wads where it's needed and, as ReaperAA said, it's undeniable that you turn faster with mouse !

But, like you idbeholdME, I consider the keyboard movement more human, at least movement that my aging brain can accept !

With all the respect I have for his incredible work, some TAS by RedRecluse feel non-human to me (yeah, its TAS, but some systematic instant U-turn are really too fast ;) ).

It all ends with preferences of one and another, and maybe this "discussion" may feel like discussing the sex of angels, but thank you for sharing your differents points !

[apichatpong]

4 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

Doom (and even Wolfenstein 3D before it) already supported kb+mouse gameplay style, but because of the heavy autoaiming and the lack of vertical looking, the kb-only play isn't in too much of a disadvantage over a kb+m player compared to post-1996 FPS games, but it is still at least slightly disadvantageous.

 

To be honest, coming back to Doom two years ago I was considering keyboard+mouse a treason to the origins ! Quickly learned that my POV was biased ;-)

[Meerschweinmann]

I can only speak for myself.

 

But as i played with "keyboard only" back in the days i was much better in DOOM.

I had learned playing DOOM with keyboard, played DOOM many years "keyboard only" and did so even DOOM Legacy was released and some friends started wasd and mouse.

If my advantage with "keyboard only" was caused by using only the keyboard or the fact that i am minimum 20 years older now, i can not say.

 

When my good Cherry Keyboard from DOS times did not have that AT connector i would test it out how good i can play today with it.

 

And as i said above, when we played DOOM deathmatch back in the days the mouse players were not automatically best. Our best player was even a keyboard only player.

To be honest, there were no optical mice with 8 billions dpi like today and in the early beginning mice had balls that had to be cleaned.

 

I would say quite diplomatically that everyone should use what they can play with best.

We had build maps full of monsters back in the days or played deathmatch LAN and i have never felt that my "keyboard only" playing was a bad thing that gave me big disadvantages. It was only another way to play DOOM.

 

As i began to play DOOM with mouse like the other newer shooters, because newer PCs had no AT or PS/2 connectors, i had never felt like "wow, now i've been so much better in DOOM". To be honest it felt a long time strange to me.

Playing "keyboard only" with those newer keyboards with Windows keys and that short space key was never an alternative for me, because i have pressed too often the wrong buttons. And at that time i did the change to wasd and mouse, all the "Windows" keyboards i had were not able to press more then 4 keys simultaneously, like my good old Cherry keyboard from DOS times that sounds like a typewriter.

Edited March 11, 2024 by Meerschweinmann

[Noiser]

15 hours ago, idbeholdME said:

Someone said keyboard only feels like controlling a car, I'd argue the opposite. I really dislike how the game feels and plays when you can turn by mouse flicking without restrictions, doing 180s in 0.1 seconds and the like. The turning speed on keyboard only is the perfect fit for Doom gameplay IMO.

Just to be clear, I didn't said that in a bad way (I actually prefer keyboard-only to mouse, as I find it very comfy once you get used to it). When I say it's like controlling a car is because of how you have to maneuver your turns with straight inputs, especially when circle-strafing. It reminds me of parking in a way :-)

[ReaperAA]

10 hours ago, apichatpong said:

With all the respect I have for his incredible work, some TAS by RedRecluse feel non-human to me (yeah, its TAS, but some systematic instant U-turn are really too fast ;) ).

 

To be fair, TAS runs are going to feel non-human.

 

Also the instant 180 U-turn in those runs probably isn't because of mouse, but what might be the turn-180 key available in DSDA-Doom (afaik it is disabled when recording a demo with strict/non-TAS demo setting).

 

I too find the turn-180 feature a bit disorienting because while turning with the mouse is fast, it isn't 1 frame instant like in those TAS demos.

[plums]

Tangentially it's interesting to see how many people prefer to play Doom with a gamepad these days. I'm a kb+m user but I would rather play keyboard only than with a gamepad, but for someone who's been playing analog-stick based games for their whole gaming lives I'm sure it feels natural.

 

I wonder if there are any speedrunners or just very skilled players using a pad?

[PasokonDeacon]

There's something to be said for trying multiple control schemes in general, at least for media you're already investing a lot of time and focus into. I used to play KB-only, then transitioned to KB+mouse (sans freelook except for some GZDoom-based works), and I could go back to KB-only without much headache if I feel like it. For me, the higher skill and reaction demands of WADs today makes the KB+M model more viable; I want to start something and not immediately feel like my own controls are holding back my enjoyment. Since I've only got so much time to play games, I tend towards the most flexible controls I can get unless I need an unconventional setup to get what I perceive as the authentic experience.

 

Death of the author is a thing, too. Most of us aren't using KB+M controls a la what Romero designed for Doom in 1993. That early form of mouselook/spring/strafe seems downright alien to most modern players, albeit in large part because it just didn't have the level of adoption as increasingly homogenized gamepad layouts. Fans of genres like survival horror can tell you how much debate still happens over "tank controls", as if there's anything inherently better or worse about earlier Resident Evil-/Silent Hill-type games' controls. Anyone pursuing a hybrid approach is more than valid, even if most genres make it hard or just unsatisfying to find that compromise. I avoid freelook for the most part because I find the horizontal FOV constraints amenable to more focused play, for example. Easily seeing flyers that can block my routes, or fireballs coming from above or below where I feel safe, would detract from my perceived need to keep moving and recalculate my positioning during combat. But I still use mouse aiming to rotate fast in a way that matches how quickly Doomguy can speed through areas—KB-only rotation struggles to keep up!

 

39 minutes ago, plums said:

Tangentially it's interesting to see how many people prefer to play Doom with a gamepad these days. I'm a kb+m user but I would rather play keyboard only than with a gamepad, but for someone who's been playing analog-stick based games for their whole gaming lives I'm sure it feels natural.

 

I wonder if there are any speedrunners or just very skilled players using a pad?

 

Beyond how gamepads have been the paradigm for player controls on stationary/portable consoles since forever, some studies (of varying sample size and methodology quality) point to the difficulty of using keyboards and mice, let alone in tandem, for younger players today. It's becoming a problem mainly due to the dominance of touch/haptic controls for smartphones, a device category that's supplanted much of the laptop and desktop userbase in recent years. So while I doubt the research on this comes close to definitive, I'm also not surprised that many folks my age or younger might do much better via gamepad since, by and large, console manufacturers still abide by established control layouts and ergonomics dating back to the turn of the millennium.

[ObserverOfTime]

When I play keyboard-only I tend to play very differently compared to when I play using mouse and keyboard. I am a lot more conservative in my approaches and tend to play a lot safer when I'm keyboard-only. The reasons for that should be quite apparent when one considers the disadvantage playing keyboard-only confers to the player (or the advantages of playing with keyboard and mouse, if you want to).

 

Consider that the mouse is a fast and precise input device. My muscles have it memorized how far to move the mouse to get from one point of the screen to another. It is as easy as pointing my finger at something, really. The only limit on how fast I can swap between different points on the screen (i.e. Enemies) is how fast I can move my hand. In a similar fashion the reaction time to events is almost as fast as my eyeballs can move, practically instant. There is also zero opportunity cost in going from one side of the screen to the other, because getting back to the other side is, again, virtually instant.

 

But hold on a minute, a keyboard is also a fast and precise input device! Yes, it sure is. But there are differences as far as the game is concerned. A keyboards input is either one of two things: A key is pressed or it is not; a key press event has no velocity, magnitude or vector. It is just a logic-level on/off state. Herein lies the disadvantage of keyboard-only play. To turn the player, a key must be pressed, and a fixed rate of rotation is then applied to the player. This rate can be adjusted to suit one's preferences, but it is necessarily a static constant. This immediately places an upper bound on how fast I can get from one side of the screen to the other, and thus, rotating 180° has an opportunity cost associated with it. Take an extreme example of instantly alternating enemies appearing in front and behind you, in such a situation the fixed turning speed will always have a real cost associated with it. Or consider normal game actions, such as peeking left and right before passing through a doorway, such an action will be performed at whatever your maximum turning speed allows.

 

So what's the problem, if the turning speed is holding me back, why not turn it up to the maximum? Sure this will allow for faster turning, but what I gain for in speed I will lose in precision. If you are someone who has quick reflexes then this might not be an issue, as you can fire off shots as you swing past the enemy at just the right moment and still be alright, but it might still be difficult to accurately hit targets at a distance, or stay on target for continuous fire.

 

Hopefully this illustrates why I feel at a disadvantage when playing keyboard-only. I can make up for a good chunk of it by simply playing a lot more slowly and methodically, but I lack the confidence I feel when I have the mouse in my hand. Maybe I would feel differently if I practised it regularly. For me, the mouse was a welcome addition to Doom, even if I was a complete cynical skeptic in the beginning. These days, FPS without mouse / analogue controllers are unheard of as far as I know.

[Shepardus]

4 hours ago, plums said:

I wonder if there are any speedrunners or just very skilled players using a pad?

There's at least one or two, I recall mmjp08 uses one.

[Catpho]

Kb-only doesn't matter most of the time because playing sp Doom well(-ish) is more of a matter of pattern recognition, not of twitch reflexes. One of the most useful pieces of advice I've been given on this forum (from an rd post a long time ago) is that you shouldn't be running like a madman around imps; instead, you should just stay still and sidestep when the fireballs are near. It sounds counter intuative considering the whole "Doom is about speed" mantra, but monsters in these games tend to be slow and predictable enough that it possible to play shepard with them; ironically, playing too fast is what could get you killed from the random crossfires you stir up. The speed is what gives you a leg up, but it's possible to misuse it.

As for rotation, I probably should've mentioned that I use instant 180 as well (it's on most source ports). Full tank is playable but not very fun.