If I add one more sector to my map, everything except items turns black.

[anticlimatic]

I have a rather large map that I've been working on, with a total of:

 

11488 Vertices

13982 Linedefs

25407 Sidedefs

3292 Sectors

910 Things

 

If I add one more sector, anywhere (including floating in space on its own) every line/sector is missing when I test (or just run normally) the map. All the items are still there, floating in the dark, but the sectors are gone.

 

I can add as many dethatched linedefs as I want without crashing the map, but if I make one whole sector bringing my total up to 3293, it crashes.

If I delete other sectors, I can add more again until I get to 3293.

 

Been looking, but I can't find anything that explains what's going on. Anybody experience this?

Edited March 10 by anticlimatic

[Stabbey]

You may have hit the practical limit of map sizes. In addition, even though you have enough space on the overall map grid, maps which occupy more than like a quarter of the overall map grid (or have sectors very very far from the rest of the map) also run into problems, I think because of integer overflow issues.

Edited March 11 by Stabbey

[bofu]

I'm not sure if that's some sort of technical limit there, but if you need to free up room for more sectors, what happens if you merge some existing ones that aren't necessarily connected but have the same properties otherwise? For example, if you have a checkerboard pattern on the floor made from sectors with black texture and sectors with white texture, this would mean all of the black texture sectors would be one merged sector and all of the white texture sectors would be another merged sector.

 

If it lets you add more sectors at that point, that would definitely lend credence to the notion that you've hit some sort of static sector limit, but if it doesn't, then that suggests to me it's more about how many separate surfaces the engine has to deal with.

[plums]

What format are you mapping in, what nodebuilder are you using, and what port(s) are you testing in?

[LoatharMDPhD]

// Less is more sometimes ya know... maybe split her up into a two parter...

[Dark Pulse]

You're probably hitting the Blockmap limit, based on you saying the map is "rather large."

 

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Map_size_limit_(blocks)

[Skronkidonk]

I would change your nodebuilder and see if that solves your issue. Normally if my map is doing funky stuff changing the nodebuilder will fix it.

[anticlimatic]

17 hours ago, plums said:

What format are you mapping in, what nodebuilder are you using, and what port(s) are you testing in?

 

Hey thanks for taking a look at my problem.

 

I'm running updated UDB with GZDoom, UDMF format with ACS scripts.

 

Full disclosure, this is my first map since using Demon on Classic Mac in the 90s, so I am extra dumb at the moment.

 

I am starting to think I might be pushing the limits of the map size in general after reading some of the responses. I do have a bit more confounding data to add:

 

Sometimes I can trigger the crash by just manipulating existing sectors- bringing vertices together to eliminate multiple lines can do it. And the ratio of sectors I eliminate to sectors I can create before it crashes is not 1 to 1. Sometimes 3293 sectors will kill it, sometimes I can get it higher.

 

My map involves a lot of duplicate areas spread way out across the entirety of the space. Might be just too much of a shite show. 

[anticlimatic]

18 hours ago, bofu said:

I'm not sure if that's some sort of technical limit there, but if you need to free up room for more sectors, what happens if you merge some existing ones that aren't necessarily connected but have the same properties otherwise? For example, if you have a checkerboard pattern on the floor made from sectors with black texture and sectors with white texture, this would mean all of the black texture sectors would be one merged sector and all of the white texture sectors would be another merged sector.

 

If it lets you add more sectors at that point, that would definitely lend credence to the notion that you've hit some sort of static sector limit, but if it doesn't, then that suggests to me it's more about how many separate surfaces the engine has to deal with.

I have a number of areas with multiple identical sectors (like chairs in an auditorium). Can I merge them as one sector, even though they aren't connected directly?

 

As mentioned above I have varying reactions to merging sectors. Sometimes it triggers a crash, sometimes it does free up space for more sectors. Mostly the later.

[bofu]

7 minutes ago, anticlimatic said:

I have a number of areas with multiple identical sectors (like chairs in an auditorium). Can I merge them as one sector, even though they aren't connected directly?

 

As mentioned above I have varying reactions to merging sectors. Sometimes it triggers a crash, sometimes it does free up space for more sectors. Mostly the later.

 

As long as they don't need to have separate tags or sound propogation, it should be fine to merge them even if they're not connected. I try only to join sectors that are close together, though.

[anticlimatic]

42 minutes ago, bofu said:

 

As long as they don't need to have separate tags or sound propogation, it should be fine to merge them even if they're not connected. I try only to join sectors that are close together, though.

 

Very cool tip, will try. Thank you. If it works I can eliminate close to 50% of them doing this.

Edited March 11 by anticlimatic

[Stabbey]

I think part of your problem is indeed that your map is spread out over too much space. Compress it together a lot more and see if that helps. If not it could be what DarkPulse said.

 

I have a map which has a 12,000 unit square area (for scenery/skybox as the playable area is a 3000 map unit radius circle) and it's nowhere close to as large as your map.

 

11 minutes ago, anticlimatic said:

 

Very cool tip, will try. Thank you. If it works I can eliminate close to 50% of them doing this.

To be clear, Join and Merge are two slightly different things. Join will say that two sectors which are physically separate are the same sector. Merge will try and eliminate lines to make them one sector - and if those sectors are physically separated, that could be a problem.

 

Merge is best used for identical sectors which are touching. Join is what to use when they're separated.

 

Edited March 11 by Stabbey
join vs merge

[magicsofa]

The large distances between areas are also blowing up the blockmap size.

[bofu]

19 minutes ago, Stabbey said:

I think part of your problem is indeed that your map is spread out over too much space. Compress it together a lot more and see if that helps. If not it could be what DarkPulse said.

 

I have a map which has a 12,000 unit square area (for scenery/skybox as the playable area is a 3000 map unit radius circle) and it's nowhere close to as large as your map.

 

To be clear, Join and Merge are two slightly different things. Join will say that two sectors which are physically separate are the same sector. Merge will try and eliminate lines to make them one sector - and if those sectors are physically separated, that could be a problem.

 

Merge is best used for identical sectors which are touching. Join is what to use when they're separated.

 

They don't have to be touching necessarily, so long as they are close together. If you have a hallway made of three sectors - one where the player and monsters actually walk, and two on the sides that are identical trim sectors for detailing - you can almost always join the two trim sectors even if they don't touch. That doesn't mean you should, but if you're absolutely trying to save sector count, it's worth trying. Just be prepared to unjoin them if something weird happens (such as rendering issues).

[DoomPlayer00]

1 hour ago, anticlimatic said:

 

Hey thanks for taking a look at my problem.

 

I'm running updated UDB with GZDoom, UDMF format with ACS scripts.

 

Full disclosure, this is my first map since using Demon on Classic Mac in the 90s, so I am extra dumb at the moment.

 

I am starting to think I might be pushing the limits of the map size in general after reading some of the responses. I do have a bit more confounding data to add:

 

Sometimes I can trigger the crash by just manipulating existing sectors- bringing vertices together to eliminate multiple lines can do it. And the ratio of sectors I eliminate to sectors I can create before it crashes is not 1 to 1. Sometimes 3293 sectors will kill it, sometimes I can get it higher.

 

My map involves a lot of duplicate areas spread way out across the entirety of the space. Might be just too much of a shite show. 

 

[IMAGE]

 

Try to get rid of some of the empty space between the areas. Have them closer to one another within the builder's grid to see if that fixes the problem.

[rita remton]

just to add what has been mentioned above (make the areas closer together). if the areas are too far apart, quirky things start to happen such as broken teleport closets, etc. making the areas as close as possible also makes it possible to have windows between areas. good luck! :)

[Doom-X-Machina]

On 3/11/2024 at 10:03 AM, anticlimatic said:

11488 Vertices

13982 Linedefs

25407 Sidedefs

3292 Sectors

910 Things 

 

Ehhh, that's not big...
 

7 hours ago, anticlimatic said:

My map involves a lot of duplicate areas spread way out across the entirety of the space. Might be just too much of a shite show. 

This is most likely the issue. Spacing separate areas out really far like that can mess with all sorts of calculations (nodes/blockmap/etc). Bring your separate areas closer together and see if it solves the problem.