why

[Chernobog The Exalted]

map look good

beautiful

good

now is corpse

no beautiful now

"i kill al montser in map"

"no"

I apologise, people make the most heart warming, awe inspiring, touching, uplifting, gladdening, srumdiddlyumptious maps and then decide to make it a slaughter map. The image below isn't the best example but... screw it.

At the end of the day you can do whatever you want, obviously, but why? Another problem: What should an aesthetically pleasing map be? It cannot be an easy map, too wasteful. It cannot be a hard map, too many corpses. It cannot be a hub map, because... Erm, I don't know, sorry.

[Shepardus]

4 minutes ago, ChernobogTheExalted said:

What should an aesthetically pleasing map be? It cannot be an easy map, too wasteful. It cannot be a hard map, too many corpses.

Simple, make it a sadistic platforming map.

[esselfortium]

People generally make maps that they enjoy playing. Doom community output is so diverse and all-encompassing nowadays that not everything is going to be to your taste, but the inverse of that is that there's probably something out there for basically anybody.

[Chernobog The Exalted]

14 minutes ago, esselfortium said:

People generally make maps that they enjoy playing. Doom community output is so diverse and all-encompassing nowadays that not everything is going to be to your taste, but the inverse of that is that there's probably something out there for basically anybody.

sory

[97th Century Fox]

There was a thread I saw recently about tourism in video games or something. Might be a good read, it boils down to there being no shame in playing stuff above your skill ceiling on a lower difficulty or with monsters disable entirely

[Chernobog The Exalted]

Just now, 97th Century Fox said:

There was a thread I saw recently about tourism in video games or something. Might be a good read, it boils down to there being no shame in playing stuff above your skill ceiling on a lower difficulty or with monsters disable entirely

You know, I also thought about some kind of "Doom Tourism", too, make some absolutely beautiful maps and let the players marvel at the magnificence of the displayed talent and craftsmanship

[Stupid Bunny]

1 hour ago, ChernobogTheExalted said:

I apologise, people make the most heart warming, awe inspiring, touching, uplifting, gladdening, srumdiddlyumptious maps and then decide to make it a slaughter map.

 

The silence and solitude of being finally alone and safe in such a spectacular place after a long and gruelling life and death struggle there is as beautiful as anything Doom can create. The beauty of the environment and scale of the threat also heighten each other in some way—danger and beauty are a thrilling combination in the real world (e.g. mountain climbing) and I think the logic carries into map design. Obviously I can appreciate a gorgeous map environment with -nomonsters on as well but to me the experience benefits from an apocalyptic urgency to match it.
 

Also on a more logistical level giant maps struggle to accommodate small numbers of monsters unless they’re heavily subdivided in some way, otherwise the demons become complete nonissues.

 

Obviously there are many gorgeous and uplifting maps that are not slaughter maps out there (noting the term gets abused and misused a lot anyway).  And as I said it’s just as well to enjoy and appreciate the map without all the blood and guts and death everywhere—like essel said everyone enjoys different things—but I think this is some of why people like to map and play things like this.

[Jayextee]

re: DOOM 'tourism'.

I'm not against it. I don't know whether simply wandering around a locale would hold my attention, but in a bigger picture I think a little of it serves purpose.

There have been certain mapsets I've played (Eviternity 1/2, BtSX, some others) that have offered combatless reprieves in some beautiful locales where there's time to just take in the vistas and, importantly, have a breather after a session of hard 'n' heavy monster shooting. IMO they're amazing for rhythm and pacing, too -- the rest period they offer being the remedy to my easily burned-out attention span. There's absolutely nothing wrong with making an amazing-looking map/hub/section of a map with nothing to shoot. DOOM may have originally been conceived as a combat-focused game, but that's not all the game's mechanics and systems can offer.

[apichatpong]

-

Edited March 12, 2024 by apichatpong

[MoiraHeart]

4 hours ago, ChernobogTheExalted said:

 

At the end of the day you can do whatever you want, obviously, but why? 

So you can Trailblaze through it. Get to it, Malcolm Striker was made to wreck havoc on slaughterfests.

[97th Century Fox]

Now that you mention gameplay mods, I'm reminded of Doomkid's POWERGUN

It's a dehacked wad that replaces the vanilla guns with much beefier alternatives, might be a good choice for those looking to make slaughtermaps more accessible

[bofu]

I try to balance this by making wads slaughtery on UV, then lower the monster counts significantly on HNTR. You ultimately can't please everybody, though. For every person who can't stand slaughter, there'll be another one who plays that same level and thinks it's not hard enough or slaughtery enough.

[Doomy__Doom]

6 hours ago, ChernobogTheExalted said:

map look good

beautiful

good

now is corpse

no beautiful now 

-nomonsters

Enjoy.

[Caffeine]

Okuplok isn't even all that great looking. Not bad or ugly, but certainly not "beautiful." It is big, and fills those big areas with ludicrous quantities of monsters. However, its arenas look rather plain and boring. Wads like Sunder at least have gorgeous architecture.

 

If you do not like slaughter maps, then I recommend not playing slaughter maps. It is not like they are difficult to avoid. There are plenty of maps that look really nice and have less spicy monster counts.

[ObserverOfTime]

2 hours ago, Caffeine said:

Okuplok isn't even all that great looking. Not bad or ugly, but certainly not "beautiful." It is big, and fills those big areas with ludicrous quantities of monsters. However, its arenas look rather plain and boring. Wads like Sunder at least have gorgeous architecture.

 

If you want to play an over-the-top slaughter map that's actually well designed (and in a finished state) I can't recommend Cosmogenisis highly enough. Even playing with no monsters, the map is an absolute thing of beauty, the 75k monsters or so it throws at you notwithstanding. You can tell someone spend a significant portion of time just doodling around in doom builder, and there is absolutely enough time to take it all in between the individual fights. And unlike Okuplok, the entire wad actually feels approachable by intermediate-level players. Don't worry, the entirety of the monsters won't come at you all at once, there's a total of like 60ish distinct and separate fights throughout the map.

 

Just have a look at this:

 

The entire map is like 33k map units squared, and provides a truly grand vista for some absolutely massive fights. Some arenas get used multiple times as you pass through the area and unlock new buttons to press, sometimes you get glimpses into areas you don't have access to yet, it is truly well done imho. Just looking at the picture utterly belies the absolute massive scale of the map. I have seen entire maps smaller than some of the monster closets present here, just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

Just don't try to load this one up in GZDoom, it won't end up well for you. PrBoom+ port or similar required.

[JackDBS]

15 minutes ago, ObserverOfTime said:

 

If you want to play an over-the-top slaughter map that's actually well designed (and in a finished state) I can't recommend Cosmogenisis highly enough

I gotta play this one. I think it has the most enemies in any map ever.

[Andromeda]

6 minutes ago, JackDBS said:

I gotta play this one. I think it has the most enemies in any map ever.

Experiencing Nirvana MAP17 has over twice as many.

[ObserverOfTime]

13 minutes ago, JackDBS said:

I gotta play this one. I think it has the most enemies in any map ever.

Even if it doesn't have the most enemies ever, if you are into slaughter this will be an absolute treat and a journey to boot! Just don't try to single-segment it, saving after fights is strongly encouraged. I don't think anyone has ever single-segmented this map afaik.

Edited March 12, 2024 by ObserverOfTime

[rita remton]

1 hour ago, JackDBS said:

I gotta play this one. I think it has the most enemies in any map ever.

there's a map with 1 billion monsters, [here] :P good luck though if you ever play it till the end.

[Maribo]

9 hours ago, 97th Century Fox said:

There was a thread I saw recently about tourism in video games or something. Might be a good read, it boils down to there being no shame in playing stuff above your skill ceiling on a lower difficulty or with monsters disable entirely

Over here, for anyone curious that might have missed it.

 

Stupid Bunny's post is excellent and more or less sums up the "why is slaughter like that" question. Extravagant, spacious, and monolithic architecture in other games might be the locale for some form of giant or god-like enemy in stature, but working with very large enemies in Doom becomes very unwieldy. Infighting, blocking you despite not visibly being that big in the sprite, weird origin spots for projectiles, "weak points" not really existing... yeah. However, Doom does handle large numbers of monsters extremely well (for the most part), thanks to modern hardware. Thus, giant packs of revenants, viles, cybers, pinkies, etc, fill that grand space.

[Chernobog The Exalted]

16 hours ago, Caffeine said:

Okuplok isn't even all that great looking. Not bad or ugly, but certainly not "beautiful." It is big, and fills those big areas with ludicrous quantities of monsters. However, its arenas look rather plain and boring. Wads like Sunder at least have gorgeous architecture.

 

If you do not like slaughter maps, then I recommend not playing slaughter maps. It is not like they are difficult to avoid. There are plenty of maps that look really nice and have less spicy monster counts.

I mean, I did say it's not the best example, but I apologize for my poor and unpopular opinion.

[ObserverOfTime]

On 3/13/2024 at 1:42 AM, ChernobogTheExalted said:

I apologize for my poor and unpopular opinion.

 

I don't want to tell you what to do or anything, but... You shouldn't ever feel sorry for having a particular opinion. An opinion is just that, something individual and personal. You feel the way you do for a reason, there's no need to apologize for that. If you share your opinion in a reasonable manner (which I am pretty sure you did) and someone else takes offence to that then that is literally their problem and not yours. Don't acquiesce to the demands of others that you shouldn't like this, should like that, prefer this, etc. Think for yourself, consider your stance on the topic, and don't fall into the trap of wanting your opinion to be accepted or be popular. No matter what opinion you hold, about half the people will still have opposing opinions (which is fine), so you will never satisfy everyone.

 

I guess what I am really trying to say is that you can feel comfortable sharing your opinion, in the end who cares what anyone else thinks? An opinion does not have to be popular or particularly common. As a matter of fact, I find people with particularly unpopular (but well-reasoned) opinions far more interesting to converse with than those who think what everyone else is thinking also.