Secrets in maps

[VICE]

I've been tinkering with Doom mapping recently and I realised I really enjoy coming up with tricky secret areas.
I was wondering what different people consider to be fun when it comes to it. I want to add a lot of them and make the entire map a complex den of intrigue, but I'm worried that I'll frustrate players too much, or that they'll miss the point of what I'm trying to make.

Tell me what you think.

 

Links to examples of mapsets with what you consider good quality secret areas would be welcome as well. Maybe I'll learn something.

[FireWarden1000]

There is a difference between Secret Areas, and the main pathway, because you will need space within an area to add Secret Areas. Developing the main pathway is more important than developing the Secret Areas, because you will expect every player to travel through the main pathway, and only a percentage of players will be able to find the Secret Areas.

 

The main problem with adding Secret Areas to a level is gameplay balance, because there are DOOM level developers who will reduce the number of resources in a level, and place the resources in Secret Areas. This means the resources are only accessible by finding Secret Areas instead of playing the main pathway only, which will increase the level difficulty.

 

You will have to decide when to add Secret Areas to a level, because you are the author of the level, and adding at least 1 Secret Area to a level will not hurt anyone.

[ObserverOfTime]

1 hour ago, FireWarden1000 said:

There is a difference between Secret Areas, and the main pathway, because you will need space within an area to add Secret Areas. Developing the main pathway is more important than developing the Secret Areas, because you will expect every player to travel through the main pathway, and only a percentage of players will be able to find the Secret Areas.

 

I find a good compromise to this is designing your map without secrets in mind at first, then as the final layout and design is being finalized, use some of the "empty" and unused space between and around the architecture to place in secret areas. A closet with some goodies here, a path going around the perimeter of a room to reach an "unreachable" item placed somewhere, a teleporter into an actual secret area, etc.

 

Having the main area and path already designed also makes it easier to place the triggers for the secrets into sensible places instead of having to think about this during the main design phase, possibly slowing down production. If the main path is complete, at least you can ship the map if you decide against placing any more secrets without falling behind if that makes any sense. If you do find you have spare time before the deadline, go and work on some of those empty spaces and populate some of them with secrets. Win-win.

 

As for the balance, secrets could provide the player with weapons found in previous levels which ordinarily wouldn't be available to non-continuous players, for example. I know the plasma rifle / rocket launcher is a favourite weapon for secrets, and if the map wouldn't ordinarily give one to the player then that makes for a good secret to keep the pistol-starters happy. Also a good place to put ammo for said weapons, because why would you have plasma cells in your map if you don't give the player the appropriate weapon? Extra health and armor are always safe bets as well that don't upset the balance too much. Players who need it will be glad to have found it, those that don't will still feel good about finding the secret.

 

On a different note, my favourite kind of secret is an early Berserk pack near the start of the map somewhere. It can be the difference of being able to complete the map Tyson-style or simply not having that option to begin with. An early berserk can provide the player with an "alternate" way to play through the map that can lead to quite hilarious outcomes when people try to challenge it that way. And you never know what those speedrunning demons come up with, so it's best to let them cook! It's a simple, minor addition that I think most players will appreciate regardless of their preferred playstyle, giving options that could make the map(s) much more appealing to a small but devout niche in the doom community. You don't have to design your map to be completed that way mind you, that would be a bit much. But it can be surprising to see how the players rise up to the challenge.

[reefer]

it's worth mentioning good secrets should feel intuitive to discover. 

they shouldn't leave the player wondering how the hell they just discovered the secret. easier said than done though. complex, intuitive secrets are really so much more rewarding than secrets that are quick n easy or convoluted and have 10 steps to discover.

[Stabbey]

 

I think it's good policy to ensure your map can be comfortably completed without the player finding any secrets at all.

Secrets should have a "tell" of some kind. This could be a misaligned or prominent texture, a line on the automap which hints at something there, a hidden switch, or an item or area visible from the main part of the map.

Most players dislike secrets which are missable, so when reasonable, make sure it's always possible to get secrets. One-time doors and lifts are frustrating.

 

1 hour ago, ObserverOfTime said:

I find a good compromise to this is designing your map without secrets in mind at first, then as the final layout and design is being finalized, use some of the "empty" and unused space between and around the architecture to place in secret areas. A closet with some goodies here, a path going around the perimeter of a room to reach an "unreachable" item placed somewhere, a teleporter into an actual secret area, etc.

 

Having the main area and path already designed also makes it easier to place the triggers for the secrets into sensible places instead of having to think about this during the main design phase, possibly slowing down production. If the main path is complete, at least you can ship the map if you decide against placing any more secrets without falling behind if that makes any sense. If you do find you have spare time before the deadline, go and work on some of those empty spaces and populate some of them with secrets. Win-win.

 

I don't think you need or even should build a map without secrets, finish it and only after it's finished, then add in secrets. If you have an idea for a secret, go ahead and add it in while you're building the map. Implementing ideas while they're fresh in your head is usually a good idea.

 

And who said anything about a deadline?

[ObserverOfTime]

12 minutes ago, Stabbey said:

I don't think you need or even should build a map without secrets, finish it and only after it's finished, then add in secrets. If you have an idea for a secret, go ahead and add it in while you're building the map. Implementing ideas while they're fresh in your head is usually a good idea.

 

And who said anything about a deadline?

 

Of course you don't have to do any of that, I was merely vomiting out my train of thought in regards to the topic at hand. It can be completely disregarded, I'm no authority or expert for that matter after all. Do whatever is the most comfortable for you, it doesn't matter what some random guy on the internet thinks. My post was just intended to share my perspective, not to be a guideline for others to adhere to. Perhaps I should have made it more clear that I was talking about my preferences and comfort level, instead of trying to tell others what they should and should not do.

 

17 minutes ago, Stabbey said:

Most players dislike secrets which are missable, so when reasonable, make sure it's always possible to get secrets. One-time doors and lifts are frustrating.

 

Yeah, non-repeatable doors are generally pretty loathsome when putting them in secrets. The convolutedness of secrets can be pretty subjective, depending on player experience and other factors. Where one person might struggle for half an hour another person might come along and spot the trigger almost immediately. There are a few generally agreed-upon conventions when designing the tell for secrets that can help, and it might still be worthwhile to solicit feedback from others to make sure it is reasonable. Or don't and just do what feels right, not trying to tell anyone how to live their lives.

[Wahrnehmungskrieg]

Every single sector in the level should be marked as a secret. You will have to forgo things like damaging floors and flickering lights, but it will be worth it, doing this will encourage high amounts of exploration

[zokum]

1 hour ago, Wahrnehmungskrieg said:

Every single sector in the level should be marked as a secret. You will have to forgo things like damaging floors and flickering lights, but it will be worth it, doing this will encourage high amounts of exploration

E4m3-ing the map? The first time I finished it I had like 3% secrets.

[CacoKnight]

Doesn't matter to me, can't find any damn secret to save my life anyway, sometimes I come across them completely involuntarily. Just stopping by to post this gem of a site:

https://classicdoom.com/doommaps.htm

https://classicdoom.com/maps/d1secs/d1.htm

https://classicdoom.com/maps/d2secs/d2.htm

Edited April 3 by CacoKnight

[FireWarden1000]

ObserverOfTime, you have provided excellent level design advice, because I always build the Secret Areas last in a level, and near the end of the development cycle of the level, adding Secret Areas to the level becomes a challenge without interfering with the level balance. Even though a level will contain empty space, the empty space is required to add Things to the level.

 

DOOM levels that were in development for an extended period of time are not guaranteed to attract a large audience, and developers shouldn't feel they are not interesting enough.

This is the reason why developers should set a due date for DOOM level releases, because of diminishing returns, and you only have enough time to release a certain number of levels a year.

[baja blast rd.]

12 hours ago, Wahrnehmungskrieg said:

Every single sector in the level should be marked as a secret. You will have to forgo things like damaging floors and flickering lights, but it will be worth it, doing this will encourage high amounts of exploration

 

Only true in vanilla/limit-removing. Boom and above will let you mark a sector as secret while assigning other effects. 

[Bri]

Just a few. I think it motivates you better when it's a small amount. If I play a map and I see it has in excess of 8 or more secrets, I usually don't bother. And I think it's good practice to make secrets worthwhile with something that can give an advantage in the level - make it rewarding. Unless, of course, you just wanna be funny and put a single health potion in there, in which case does make me laugh when I see stuff like that. :P

[JackDBS]

I like looking for them but sometimes they can be utterly loony to find, like in Struggle.

[rita remton]

i like a moderate amount of secrets because it increases my chance of at least finding 1 of them. i'm terrible at finding such stuff. however, having too many secrets in a map would be a letdown to me at the end map stats. the percentage of finding 1 secret would be lesser with a higher number of secrets. that's just me :P

[BeachThunder]

4 feels like a good number for me. I groan any time I start a level and see 10+ secrets.

[Stabbey]

I try and do at least three secrets. On some maps, this can be a challenge, such as "Dead in Five Minutes," which is only like 10 minutes long and has like three rooms, so I had to be creative in how I squeezed in four secrets.

[Geniraul]

I prefer exploration maps with more secrets which motivate you to progress, like E1M2 and E1M3, although I like it better when all the secrets are marked. I think Doom Zero does a great job in this regard.

[Stupid Bunny]

I never, ever object to more, or bigger, or more elaborate secrets.  I always say the undiscovered parts of a map are my favorites, because it leaves something to look for next time, something to come back to, even if I never find it in my entire life.  I don't even mind if it's super duper arcane (though probably shouldn't be completely arbitrary.)  Want to hide monsters in a secret?  Fuck it hide an entire combat scenario in one.  Go nuts.  Literally I see no downside to more secrets because it's another thing to do in the map and it's not like I'll be in super big trouble if I don't 100% the map on the first attempt.  But that's another rant for another day

 

(This should be obvious and boilerplate but secrets that are required to finish the map are not fun unless it's explicitly a puzzle map built around the concept)

[june gloom]

As long as we're talking stuff that makes logical sense and ideally are more than just a glorified supply closet I don't mind seeing a few scattered around. It's a big part of doomer shooters, to be honest.

[xdarkmasterx]

This many (if you know, you know)

Edited April 5 by xdarkmasterx

[Wahrnehmungskrieg]

Entering a serious mode, what secrets permit and give you, and how they're placed, is far more important than their number.

 

If you remember your first few playthroughs of Doom's E1M2, the secrets in the maze feel like joy against the hitherto (remember, you've been playing Doom at this point from anything from a few minutes to a few hours at this point) uncharted crawl you've been doing. They could have been a single health bonus and still been blessed relief. Secrets are a human presence against demonic invasion.

 

16 hours ago, Stupid Bunny said:

[...]  Want to hide monsters in a secret?  Fuck it hide an entire combat scenario in one.  [...]

 

Secret fights are lovely... whole new secret places with their own combat encounters and requisite places are gorgeous, you're peeling away the orange (often on a later playthrough, if you're like me and don't try to rinse the map to exhaustion on a first playthrough) and encounter a whole new map, the whole map gains a new context impossible if the map simply did not have that area or if the secret areas were simply presented to the player along with the rest without that additional appellation of 'secret' ('unknown territory'). Would much, much, much, much, much, much rather that, than a secret which offers but can't give. Honestly, just make half your map only accessible through a tricky secret in the discovered portion. And read this post.

 

Nothing, to me, deflates a secret more than it being a three-sided room containing munitions and health you've no need for because you've stocked up already. (Imagine a secret with four medikits and a couple boxes of ammo. Useful, maybe, but what if the chaingun saw no use and you're not really the worse for wear? Might as well have opened it to a wall custom-textured with a picture of the mapper giving you the finger. -- Admittedly, such a secret might be helpful later on (redefines the secret as a 'cache' you can rely on, I *do* like that), but in levels with heavy amounts of forward 'propulsion' you probably wouldn't even need to go back to it because the later areas will probably do you good for health and ammo anyway).

[RataUnderground]

I like to add a certain amount of stupid secrets in order to discourage the obsessive search for secrets. I can't say that it works at all, there are always people willing to spend thirty minutes to get the visible 1% bonus helmet behind some bars.

[Pancrasio]

I mostly prefer when the secret doesn't contain anything useful, and instead grants you a secret fight, some kind of weird texture saying whatever interesting thing the mapper wanted to show, weird architecture or a computer map so you can see silly sector art with it... Not sure how many people would just rather have a soulsphere but I guess I like that also. I don't know, I'm pretty basic when it comes to using them in my own levels or finding them in someone else's.

[LadyMistDragon]

I can accept all kinds of secrets - except for the ones that hide critical weapons or ammo or other supplies without which one part of the map or another feels badly balanced at the least and impossible at the worst.

 

Really, the thing Pancrasion said after the secret fight comment might be cool, but 95 percent of the time, we'll never find anything like that. Just so long as there's a reasonable expansion of supplies that leads to comfortable odds of finishing the map, it should be fine.

[Pancrasio]

7 minutes ago, LadyMistDragon said:

Really, the thing Pancrasion said after the secret fight comment might be cool, but 95 percent of the time, we'll never find anything like that. Just so long as there's a reasonable expansion of supplies that leads to comfortable odds of finishing the map, it should be fine.

Yeah. I think I like it mostly because it almost never happens.

[LoatharMDPhD]

// so on my super secret map, and my super super secret map, i have no secrets, but the starting room is marked as secret so the player gets it out of the way immediately and the level starts with the secret noise which i think is nice.... i also like having secret areas that are secret but not marked as such.

[baja blast rd.]

Pretty sure I tend to prefer a higher amount of 'secretiveness' per level. That doesn't really connect to a number; several secrets that are on the small side, or two secrets that are full-fledged sidequests, might end up being comparable. The number would also have to be adjusted for map size anyway -- 4 secrets might be more for a small map than 6 secrets are for a large map. 

Stupid Bunny's first paragraph is essentially my take on it. I'll never let an excess of secrets bait me into a tiresome "completionism at all costs" hunt for them that sours my playthrough. But a lot of the levels that stick with me and prompt me to replay them in the future have areas I end up missing the first time around, which builds this deep sense of curiosity that can linger long past that first playthrough.

 

One important idea is that secrets can function in many possible ways. A secret might not have a big gameplay role -- it might just be a cache of resources you don't need -- but its presence might still do a lot to strength the map's sense of place, like giving you a look into something that helps contextualize the map's theme. In one of Nihility's later maps, which is creepy and tension-racked as they all are -- darkness broken up by flickering lights, the ambient thrums of unplaceable machines -- there's a bright secluded secret office that's like an oasis. It's small and had almost no useful resources for me at the time. But the mood change-up was amazing, and it would have been a good secret even if it were totally empty. For reasons like this, I would caution against looking at secrets only through one lens, whichever that is.

[QuaketallicA]

Depends less on the quantity and more on the quality of the secrets. They should balance feeling interesting and clever to solve, or a nice reward for the discerning eye. Secrets that are too easy to find are underwhelming. Give your player some credit. On the other hand, if they're so obtuse that almost nobody would ever find them if they didn't already know it was there?

 

The nice thing about having lots of secrets in a map, is that even if the average player only finds like 2 or 3 out of 10 secrets, that's still 2 or 3 secrets with helpful items that can aid them in their journey.

 

Another neat thing about secrets is that you can balance the map so that on HMP they're a nice bonus but you can beat the level just fine if you don't find even a single one. But on UV, perhaps the map practically requires you to know most secret locations or otherwise it will be a very tough challenge. You don't have to design it that way, but it adds challenge for those who know the map inside and out.

 

I would rather there be more secrets than less, but regardless each should feel intentionally placed and thought out, like any other element of design. Not just thrown in for the sake of it.

Edited April 8 by QuaketallicA

[QuaketallicA]

On 4/5/2024 at 12:03 PM, Pancrasio said:

I mostly prefer when the secret doesn't contain anything useful, and instead grants you a secret fight, some kind of weird texture saying whatever interesting thing the mapper wanted to show, weird architecture or a computer map so you can see silly sector art with it... Not sure how many people would just rather have a soulsphere but I guess I like that also. I don't know, I'm pretty basic when it comes to using them in my own levels or finding them in someone else's.

 

Well you're not alone. They added those Secret Encounters in Doom Eternal. It is a nice idea. Of course for Serious Sam, every secret is practically going to punish you far worse than whatever armor/health it originally gave anyway. 

[JoeyKelastiof]

I'd say a whole bunch is good, I like finding secrets. I know it's hard to estimate when you're the one making the map but try not to make it too impossible to find. Like secrets that are just a wall or a pillar or something that is the exact same texture as the rest can be really hard to find and a bit of a hit or miss.

My favorite secrets are the ones you find by exploring and trying to get out of the map's main path, or the ones you find by finding small switches etc, or pressing something like a computer. Even wall secrets are good when they're well implemented, and as said above, not the exact same texture / placement as the rest.

Edited April 8 by JoeyKelastiof