ByRntStarOEI Posted April 4 (edited) Hello, longtime doomer but new to the forums, just recently joined to get some feedback on a wad I've been working on for the past couple of months. It basically started out as a test wad of different ideas to experiment and learn mapping with UDB. I ended up expanding and refining it as time went on until eventually a somewhat coherent level came of it. Perhaps I've got a bit carried away with it in certain aspects, but it has been a great learning experience for me, so far. It's a large single level that plays out with a fairly linear goal, but with multiple avenues of approach so there is much benefit from exploration. That was the intention anyway... The wad is in Boom format and restricted to only default doom2 textures, so I had to get creative with some of them to get the desired effect. Figured it would be easier to start simple and work my way up from there, should I decide to keep pursuing mapping in the future. Any concerns/criticisms with the map layout and such are appreciated, as I'm sure it's full of beginner mistakes. But basically, I'm trying to get a feel if I'm heading in the right direction or not with doom mapping as well as game playability. I reckon my main concern is monster/item placement and difficulty. I'm a bit unsure how it will play out for others and whether of not it's enjoyable. It's hard to gauge since I've been through it so many times that I already know what to look out for. I feel this is one of the more difficult parts of mapping to balance and need feedback from others to help improve upon it. While I've included the other difficulty levels, I mainly ran my test in UV so I'm certain that some work needs to be done with the different levels as well. I've tested it in both gzdoom and dsdadoom, but imagine any boom source port would work. The only issue that may appear are some minor graphical glitches in software vs the advance renderers. Certain areas appear darker in software mode as well, so I'm not sure if the lighting balance is ideal. What render mode is typically considered the norm? Freelook is recommended, but not required. Jumping and ducking are not required, but I left it available to those prefer to use it. Both probably will make the level slightly easier. Any who, I've probably rambled on far too long already, but the my goal is to eventually release the wad onto the DW/idgames archive, so any feedback for improvement/fixes is greatly welcomed. Thanks! Premise: Spoiler A non linear single player level with heavy emphasis on exploration combined with combat This map may take some time to complete (exploration and back tracking are a must) and can have some rather harsh combat in a few instances, so don't be afraid to save. Not saying it's impossible to do a no-save playthrough, but expect a challenge. Especially on higher difficulties. HNTR being more suited for a relaxing/exploratory playstyle, while UV being more intended for doom veterans or those who played though it before and are looking for a greater challenge. Be warned, however, UV can seem rather unfair when going in blind. Story: You have been hired by the UAC to investigate an ancient temple site located up in the mountains. Your objective is to determine why communications have recently ceased from the archaeological team that was stationed there to study the site. However, your main goal is to collect three unique artifacts that were excavated at the site shortly before communications stopped. These artifacts supposedly contain great power, so the return of these artifacts back to the safety of the UAC will be heavily rewarded. Be warned though, that previous attempts sent to investigate the site have not returned and more than likely resulted in failure, so make sure you bring a side arm. After all, the reason UAC hired you was due to your record of completing previous "challenging jobs"... Screenshots: Spoiler The wad: (I've included the old original version for those who are interested. This is mainly for watching the older gameplay demos posted below). Newest: EXCAVATION.zip Old versions: Spoiler ExcavationPRE.zip ExcavationOLD.zip Edited May 23 by ByRntStarOEI NEW DOWNLOAD UPDATE 24 Quote Share this post Link to post
LVENdead Posted April 4 Welcome to Doomworld! Can we get a screenshot or two? People will be more inclined to check out your map if you show even a little bit of it off. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post
apichatpong Posted April 4 One of my unpopular doom opinion is not liking marble but this map changed my mind (and is far from being limited to marble) : great layout, great exploring, combatwise approachable, bravo ! 3 Quote Share this post Link to post
Stabbey Posted April 4 I'll give this a try soon. I may record a video if I have the HD space. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post
Arwel Posted April 4 Nice work! In my opinion layout is the strongest point here, I've had a lot of fun exploring the map! Quite authentic style too! Regarding combat, I think ammo balance and weapon placement throughout the map is not very consistent. Early on you always lack ammo and have to skip encounters to find some, a bit later you find way too many rockets in every fight and feel stupid for not being able to find rocket launcher which now feels mandatory in those fights due to how many rocket boxes there are everywhere. With a big non-linear map like this I personally would prefer to have multiple rocket launchers in different spots. Also the 4-cyberdemons fight is really fun and cool idea, but it felt very RNG to me, there's not enough space or opportunities to maneuver without save-load cycle until you get a lucky roll to not eat rockets while killing another cybie or running past it downstairs. Maybe even some tiny changes like making cyberdemon rooms a bit larger would make it better. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post
apichatpong Posted April 4 (edited) Playing the map fully, I agree with what Arwel said about ammo and weapons, but still great work ! Edit : to be a bit more precise but don't overconsider my POV (because read my title), I would have felt better with an earlier ssg. It mights be possible to get it way before I got it, though. Anyway, my post short-night, pre-work (non complete)) run on ITYTD this morning was, not easy but managable, this afternoon on HMP it was quite different... Tougher, more challenging, but still very enjoyable. Since I've no problem with saves the 4 cybers fight didn't felt the same way as Arwel but I won't have been against a bit more cells... Once again, don't overconsider my thoughts, balancing weapons and ammo to please everyone is, i think, impossible. Edit 2 : yeah, retried and got the ssg way earlier, it's just a non-linear/strategy thing... Edited April 4 by apichatpong 2 Quote Share this post Link to post
Zesiir Posted April 4 I really enjoyed the architecture and solid use of Marble textures for the first bit of the map. There were plenty of pegged door textures. Sometimes it felt like they were intentional, other times not. Initial combat encounters feel balanced and difficulty ramps up as you proceed further into the map. The non-linear style works good for the most part, but it's easy to get lost and encounter tougher monsters early on before you have the weapons to deal with them. However ammo was always a problem, I could not find a way to get the backpack in the shower room, so I was forced to progress through the map with constantly running out of ammo due to the tough monsters. It also felt like the number of Archviles that spawned in after you had cleared an area felt a bit overdone, it would've been more fun if I had the ammo for it, alas. Once I got to the room with the four Cyberdemons, I gave up. It just wasn't a fun encounter, due to constantly having to dodge projectiles from every concievable angle, and Archviles resurrecting the Revenants. The music is fine, but it gets a bit boring to listen to that same tune. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post
Zahid Posted April 4 great design and miserable gameplay as i was trying my first and no saves i kiiled 200 high end monsters with single shotgun ammo searching seems a major goal in map got ssg n i died i am hoping later part would br more enjoyable as i am getting use to it now my fail fda of 1 hour will try again for sure as i like it.... good work prboom cl9 uv popi9.zip 2 Quote Share this post Link to post
ByRntStarOEI Posted April 4 Thanks for the feedback so far, this is good stuff and helps out a lot. Some of the problems mentioned are thing's I was worried about myself, but ended up second guessing. The multiple avenues one can take makes it a bit hard for me to balance out the pacing and I may have bit off more than I can chew in that regards. But I'm already brain storming some ideas that may help alleviate this as I'm certain it can seem a bit unfair at times, especially for players going in blind and UV difficulty. May be the case where I need to completely change or remove said instances. I'll do a more thorough reply later when I should have more free time, but I appreciate those taking the time to respond. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post
Arwel Posted April 4 12 minutes ago, ByRntStarOEI said: But I'm already brain storming some ideas that may help alleviate this By the way, in addition to the idea I mentioned in previous post (adding multiple spawns of the same weapon in different places, like having multiple RL or SSG), I just had another idea for balacing ammo: for each setpiece try to consider the worst case scenario where player arrived there skipping as many useful rooms as possible and balance ammo / powerups to be just enough for that worst scenario. Might be easier said than done but still 😅 I'm not sure it is perfect strategy though, because this way depending on circumstances player may end up with too much ammo eventually... Maybe it can be a good starting point and afterwards you can remove some of that ammo to make it not too much after player actually visits all the rooms... 🤔 2 Quote Share this post Link to post
apichatpong Posted April 4 I hope that more doomers will give feedback because there really is something with this map, above the marble question mentioned in my first post, i'm not really into story regarding doom, didn't read the story you wrote, but it's not necessary here (and it's quite rare) since you really get some story while playing (no spoilers). ITYTD is very nice to get the story and exploration, and, apart from the ammo/weapon issue already mentioned, HMP and, i imagine, UV, is quite something, the four cyber is one thing but one can also say that every kind of monster is used, in a non slaughter way, to high level of his potential, especially the archviles (absent on ITYTD, they really change the atmosphere on HMP, sneakily placed (or appearing) as they are, repopulating without you realizing it... it gives a real sense of relief when finally you can revisit some places finally monster-emptied). I have a tendancy to be expansive (and a bit invasive), so I'll stop, but the more I think about this map, the more I love it. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post
Napeyear Posted April 5 (edited) Very impressive work. I manged to get halfway through, dying on both UV and HMP before I switched to HNTR, clearing it in 38:21, with 99% kills & 6/10 secrets found. Although I had some gripes with the difficulty and weapon placement, mostly the lack of higher tier weapons in other areas of the map, I think you did a great job in making a nonlinear level that was fun to explore and had great transitions between the marble temple and underground caves, along with some impressive detailing in many areas. You should give yourself more credit, starting off with a nonlinear level is a very tricky task, and requires a great deal of balancing areas and encounters based on what order the player chooses to complete the level (as you may have already seen from other posters who mention a lack of balancing). As others have already said, the level was really difficult on UV and HMP, and I don't think locking the higher tier weapons behind the blue key doors, or deeper into the other areas of the level was a good idea, as it made some fights on HMP and UV way too difficult and even on HNTR some areas drug on a fair bit until you grabbed the SSG and RL. More powerups and ammo before/during these harder sections would have improved the overall experience, or maybe reducing the amount of higher tier monsters earlier on in the level would have worked too in my opinion. As for the multi-cyberdemon encounter towards the end, Zesiir summarizes my thoughts exactly: On 4/4/2024 at 10:03 AM, Zesiir said: Once I got to the room with the four Cyberdemons, I gave up. It just wasn't a fun encounter, due to constantly having to dodge projectiles from every concievable angle, and Archviles resurrecting the Revenants. I managed to beat it on HNTR without saves (I got super lucky as you'll see in my demo notes), but even then it felt really unfair & unreasonably difficult even with invulnerability and a BFG. On HNTR I didn't have to deal with archviles resurrecting the boney-boys, but even then it was really over-tuned in terms of difficulty. Other than the balancing, I thought it was a cool level that has a lot of depth to it. On 4/3/2024 at 9:09 PM, ByRntStarOEI said: I'm trying to get a feel if I'm heading in the right direction or not with doom mapping as well as game playability. You are absolutely heading the right direction, all of the flaws that I've found are within your ability to fix and improve upon. Although some tweaking needs to be done, I think this was an awesome level that does a lot of things right despite the balancing which needs some work. Great job! Demo link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R4hEwt33Tuah58jKI6EWC6xqP8s-RZq9/view?usp=sharing My full comments below (as included in the zip file) Spoiler IWAD: Doom 2 PWAD: The Excavation Map: 1 Author: ByRntStarOEI DEMO NOTES: Player: Napeyear Skill: 2 (Hey! Not Too Rough) Exe: Dsda Doom (Boom) Time: 38:21 Comments: Very cool first level with an extremely ambitious focus on nonlinear progression. This works in benefit of the player and to the players detriment as the higher tier weapons are either locked behind the blue key areas, or deep into the mines where the player is forced to fight off high tier monsters if they choose this route before exploring the blue key areas. In my two demo attempts where I failed to finish the level, I learned this the hard way, grabbing the blue key and exploring the caves instead of entering the blue key areas to grab the SSG or rocket launcher, which made it really hard to progress, and, eventually, dying at the first cyberdemon fight. It sucked having to fight those hordes of cacodemons and spectres along with a cyberdemon with just a shotgun and plasma gun (where I inevitably ran out of ammo). As someone else said in the DW thread, it would have been better if you had extra rocket launchers and SSGs lying around in these other areas of the map, that way the player doesn't feel forced to go through the blue key areas before exploring the rest of the map. Especially if there are plenty of rockets and cells in other parts of the level where their corresponding weapons are absent. You were on the right track with this in the courtyard area where the two spider masterminds and water drainage section was, as the plasma gun and SSG (at least on HNTR) where available in this area, but not until you deal with the monsters guarding them or getting them to all infight, and making a break for the plasma and SSG. The biggest complaint being that the level is way overtuned for HMP and UV, where I made it to the 4 cyberdemon fight and died on both of my first attempts, (on HMP and UV respectively), leading up to this I was sweating for health and ammo and thought maybe some more powerups and armor (along with a little more ammo) would have made it a more pleasant experience. I managed to complete the level with 99% kills, missing 1 monster (if I had to guess it was either a revenant or a spectre in the lava area of the cave that I missed) and grabbed 6/10 secrets. I thought the interior of the marble temple was really well designed, as there were plenty of rooms for the player to explore, and many secrets that you could find, though the red key being locked behind a secret is an odd design choice in my opinion, though in the kitchen where you grab the blue key you can see it through the grating, (which I think offsets this complaint :P) and the outer courtyard area had some neat detailing, especially with the marble waterways, and the satyr/lion faces spilling water out of their mouths. As far as I could tell there was very little texture misalignment, though some texture choices felt a little odd, but nothing that was too garish. In terms of aesthetic this definently felt like your typical Doom 2 wad, but thats not a bad thing at all, it felt very cohesive and the transitions between the caves and marble temple was really well done, and I liked spelunking through the dark caves getting chased by cacos, imps and pinkies. I also thought the verticality of the level was really well done in some areas, especially in the outer courtyard where the cacodemons and pain elementals can fly up on the balcony and hunt you down inside the temple. The dead behemoth in the caves (where the berserk secret is) was amazing and really shows of your versatility when it comes to the Doom 2 textures, I loved how you could climb its arms and legs to get on top of it, and it was one of many highlights in your level. I also thought the lava areas where you grab the plasma gun had some excellent lighting and detail, as the stalactites that protrude from the ceiling were well made, and I liked the the gradient lighting used. As it got darker when you stood beneath them, the bright lava textures makes the room sort of pop thanks to the lighting difference. As other comments said, I think you should either change the 4 way cyberdemon fight or scrap it, because I thought it wasn't really fair. I managed to get lucky on my sucessful run, rushing two cyberdemon while my invulnerabilty was still active, and the revenants managed to infight with two of the cyberdemons. It was a cool idea, but it needed better execution IMO, so it may be better to just nerf the encounter a considerable amount or axe it entirely, this is up to you of course. Even though I complained earlier about the weapon placement/difficulty, I had no problem swallowing my pride and lowering the difficulty to HNTR, beating your map in 38:21. I had made it halfway through on my previous attempts and I was really determined to finsh the level, as I thought it had a lot of awesome ideas. It was well worth the 1 hour & 15 minutes of my total playtime to see the ending. Despite having to replay the level without saves , the gameplay was really good on HNTR after finding a good route to get access to the more powerful guns earlier on, and I think you did a good job with monster selection and placement. It never really felt repetitive or grindy, though when I had no idea where to get the other weapons, this was quite the opposite expierence. The nonlinear nature of the level also lends itself well to multiple playthroughs, and I would gladly follow any updated versions to this level. My included lmp is the longest demo I've recorded in recent memory where I actually survive, and I don't really expect you to sit and watch it, but just know its well over 30 minutes (last 8 minutes I was trying to find ammo to fight the final spidermastermind.. I really wanted to get all kills lol). I give it an 7.5/10 because I thought it was an awesome level to explore and was way deeper than I expected it to be. A higher score would have been granted if it were just a little bit easier/had more weapons lying around for the player. But overall an excellent level that is worth multiple runs. Edited April 6 by Napeyear 3 Quote Share this post Link to post
ByRntStarOEI Posted April 6 So I managed to get some time these past couple of evenings to do some modifications to my wad. I've replaced the download above with the updated version. Sorry for the delayed response, but if figured I would use the time to update the map rather than post out my ideas since I'll be out of town the next few days. That being said, I really appreciate the feedback I have gotten so far. It's really helpful and encouraging. The gameplay demos were awesome and they really helped open my eyes to how other could possibly play out the map. Hats off to Zahid and Napeyear for posting them. (I forgot doom actually had that capability) I apologize for not replying to each of you individually and being in a rush, but I really need to be getting my stuff ready for tomorrow so I'll do a quick list to some of the concerns that were brought up: - I haven't ditched the 4 way cyber battle yet, but hopeful made it more manageable. - The music is actually kind of a placeholder so I'm open to recommendations. Does anyone know of a good midi site in the likes of mod archive? - You could actually get the ssg and rl pretty quickly, but it wasn't made very clear. This has been changed up in the update however.. - I tried to make it where exploration and searching every nook and cranny pays off, so some pickups can be easily missed. - My goal was for the keycards to be optional. You can get through the whole level without ever picking one up. The skullkeys are a requirement though. - I actually kinda pull the story posted above out of my butt because I was afraid the map wouldn't make sense and seem kinda jumbled together (The orginal name for the wad actually was Jumble, lol) - The secrets are intended to be fairly power, but not required. Are they too obvious? Here is a glimpse of some of the changes for those who are interested. Once again, let my know how it plays out. I sure it still going to need some work. Spoiler - Added more ammo and health throughout the map - Fixed some texture mistake I ran across (My first screenshot shows a couple lol) and did some touch up here and there - Tried to make it more clear that the temple area has more than one entrance and doesn't necessarily need a key to get inside - Rearranged some of the weapon pickups. Made the ssg more apparent and to give the player a goal to shoot for. The rl now requires a little more effort to get however. - Made use of an area that wasn't being used, to accommodate a new location for pickups and to draw players back to the area more. - Added yellow key card (might as well since it was the only one not being used :P) - Made expanding the garden area early more forgiving, especially on higher difficulties. It was a bit harsh to have archviles all over the player just for trying a switch out. Not saying they were completely removed however... -Made a few changes to the 4 way cyber fight: -Revenants can no longer be revived on any difficulty -Moved the teleport locations so the player can escape the area without having to get through a cyber -Made the activation triggers for the doors further out so the player has more time to get their bearings when they first teleport in. -Added a invisibility sphere on UV difficulty. -Added more ammo\health in the area. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post
jmac Posted April 6 (edited) Edit: Oops, posted this comment on the wrong map. Edited April 6 by jmac 0 Quote Share this post Link to post
apichatpong Posted April 6 (edited) On 4/6/2024 at 7:14 AM, ByRntStarOEI said: The secrets are intended to be fairly power, but not required. Are they too obvious? Got 5/10 secrets on my playthrough then spent some more time around the map and manage to get (after quite some time) 9/10. Can't find the last one (it's not the one you can obtain after the last evolution of the map, the one that don't give you anything but is real nice). On 4/6/2024 at 7:14 AM, ByRntStarOEI said: Rearranged some of the weapon pickups. Made the ssg more apparent and to give the player a goal to shoot for. The rl now requires a little more effort to get however. Ah Ah, tried the new version : you really don't like "free weapons", I like that ! To be honest, on first impression, the quest for RL and SSG needs both more efforts... ... and you added some monsters ;-) Edit (after what Zahid said) : just a few words about what Zahid said below, the Mucus flow is a great reference for your map, really true. From what I know about BPRD’s work, his texturing inspiration and yours are quite opposite, the melancholy his maps distill is more aerial, space oriented when yours seems more terrestrial and aquatic. To be honest, I’ve seen some great maps directly inspired by the kind of dreamstate Mucus Flow generates but their inspiration, at least to me, is more on the surface than on the spirit. The ammo starvation (or limitation) is not born with BPRD’s map but the radicality it instaured was really something else… In your map, it’s not coming back again and again to the same spot to refuel, it rather is coming back and explore more to find some hidden items, running and letting groups of monsters killing each other (or not). The archviles repopulating I evoked earlier is some kind of counterpart to the respawning chaingunners towers of Mucus flow and the relief I mentioned about your map is close to the one for the Mucus Flow player discovering the secret killing all the stocked chaingunners. Writing this, I’m starting to think that maybe the last secret is like in Mucus Flow, unreachable without cheating. Maybe you didn’t even thought about Mucus Flow while mapping but, for what I know (very limited), not sure I’ve seen maps getting that close to Mucus Flow feelings yet having their own identity. Edit 2 : got the last secret and it seems broken (at least in gzdoom and prboom+) Spoiler the berserk secret location near the dragon count as two secrets but I only managed to get the second secret activation with idclip. Edit 3 : took a peak at UV and realized that the "secret that don't give you anything" I mentioned before gives you, in fact, computer map area, just this item don't appear on HNTR nor HMP. Edit 4 : The BPRD road, once again ? ;-) a cacodemon (thing 1359) is placed outside the map (like in nuts 3) Edit 5 : I don't record demos but here is my detailed "strategy" playthrough on HMP (a bit painful to read) : Spoiler 1 — first area : I kill almost everyone (the yellow door area’s shotgunners included) going back and forth on the bridge and on the water areas without entering the marble temple/castle (so leaving the bridge « intact »), taking all the ammo possible (take the secret soulsphere, tried once to leave it for the end fight, didn’t end well). The run is mostly fast, except for the Hell Knight and some distant imps/zombiemen 2 — enter the marble, wake up the imps, revenants and HK and, circle strafing, make them infight… then go on the right in the room with the half open blue key door, kill the bastards within and also, through open walls, HK and others stuff in the blue keycard room (so the future fight is easier). Slow tempo segment. 3 — come back to the entrance, go west just to get the shells accessible from the outside in the small red keycard room with chaingunner and revenant)(not killing them). Fast tempo. 4 — Quest to ssg : go back east, enter the cavern through the wooden door, kill the low tier monsters with pistol, then a chaingunner on the left (so get chaingun), waking up other monsters, go back to the entrance and jump on the left to attack the revenants with some protection (don’t always end well). Slow cramped tempo Once area cleaned : 5 —jump onto the cavern and shotgun the pinkies/spectres, also go on the left to get shells then run fast to the « cratere » take the yellow key card and instantly go back on my way through the thin rocky stairs (needing to kill some spectre/imps waiting for me and blocking my way) then run fast back to the temple. Slow then very fast tempo 6 — go back to the entrance of the marble area, click the yellow switch then only go west on the bridge to get the ssg. Kill the stuff, a bit helped by infighting. Mid tempo. 7 — Quest for the RL and blue skull key : re-enter the marble area, go west, enter the wooden room/library, ssg the bad stuff, go to the secret with red keycard, kill the new stuff and then go back to the red keycard door, kill chaingunner before opening then the manageable revenant, take all items (blue armor of course) except for the box of shells since the bunch of shotgunners in the « library » refueled me. Mid tempo. 8 — go to the bathroom/toilet, killing first, step by step, the revenant hidden in toilets, then the imps, take some extra health. Slow tempo. 9 — still on the same corridor, open the door to the « garden », quickly run right, open the other door and re-enter marble, kill hitscanners then enter the blue keycard room, kill the teleporting monsters inside the room and on the adjacent one (the one from part 2). Activate the secret with the megasphere but only take it if necessary. Slow tempo. 10 — run to the blue skull room, click the switch, run quickly to get the the RL then, very quickly, come back to the room entrance and rocket what I can (helped by some extra rocket taken along the way) aiming at the most possible to the archviles (after the imps wave). Finish the rest with ssg and chaingun. Finally take the blue skull key and some health/ammo. Very quick then « immobile » but intense. 11 — on my way back, open the second red keycard room, kill the manageable archvile and his friends, take the ammo and the berserk. Mid tempo. 12 — go back in the direction of the garden, before the garden door, go left through blue door, kill hitscanners then take a peak on the balcony to kill sniping revenant. Mid tempo. 13 — descend to the garden, run quick, the order of kills is very RNG, it depends on who start first infighting (the pinkies have tendency to easily get some shots), usually I go first to mancubus and chaingunner. Quick and intense. 14 — the, first part of a cheese strategy : kill two revenants thought the semi-closed stairs leading to the spidermasterminds area. Slow and very patient tempo. At that point, I usually have to come back and take the megasphere from part 9 15 — then come back to part 12, slowly kill monsters open room by open room, get the secret for ammo and the, at that point, unnecessary second yellow keycard. Slow tempo 16 — Quest for the red and yellow skull keys and the plasma/BFG : back to the cavern, kill some remaining spectres, go back to the lava, kill mancubus open the cells secret but take it only if needed (mostly not needed at that point because you get cells on some previously visited armory rooms). Then jump into the « dead dragon » room, ssg some spectres, chaingun and ssg some cacodemons (there are ammo in the room to refuel and you also can went back to find some), save my remaining rockets for the hidden baron. Walk on the monster, face his head, open one of his eyes, secret berserk. Midtempo to fast tempo area. 17 — you then have to go deep in the cave on a path blocked by a not so threatening HK, then you see more and more lava, chaingun some imps and lost souls and fall into another big cave full of lava. Compared to ITYTD where you have a protectionsuit, this area is tougher (half a dozen mancubi and two pain elementals + damaging floor almost everywhere)… quickly go left to get the plasma, use it to kill the pain elementals and a bit for a mancubus or two but save some cells for what is waiting for me after that. Finish the rest with rocket (If I still have some) and mostly ssg. Quick but be careful tempo. 18 — this leads to a tiny transition cave with ammo (and a bit of health) just before The big cave. Enter it fast, run to kill chaingunners, then turn around the big room to generate infight (a bit) and shooting some monsters on my way. Then take the red skull key which, if I remember well, teleports some manageable revenants. Quick and a bit absurd tempo. 19 — one of my favorite part, after the cave is cleaned, I take all the ammo possible, click on the switch opening doors on the stairs area, One cyber appears with two arachnotrons, the three being blocked by stairs to a higher level than yours. Just have the time to rocket an arachnotron while hidden on the left of the stairs, then a whole bunch of cacodemons, some spectres and revenants teleport on your back… not saying it works all the time but, I dance a bit, shoot revenants… with some splash damage, or well directioned rockets, the spectres will mostly be occupied by the cyber and then I end with my group of cacodemons that I slowly lead around the cave to be in the way of cyberdemon’s rockets… One by one, they infight… and lose… In the end I use my saved cells to quickly finish the already damaged cyber. Then, I press the second switch and get the secret armor, backpack… After that, enter the room where the cyber was initially placed, take the huge amount of ammo… and the BFG. Intense then absurdly (but funnily) slow tempo. 20 — The big stuff : after pressing two switches in the last room, a teleport appears, I take it to the four cybers (and 50 revenants + some lost souls) fight. To be honest, only beat the fight once, with luck, on the older version (but I’m not a good doom player), managed to take it twice on the new version, still some luck but also a more complete arsenal. You have some places to hide a bit from the cybers but always for a very short time since revenants are shooting you from nearly everywhere… Anyway, it’s a bit over my skills but, as Zahid said, it’s tough but not impossible (never tried to kill all the revenants). PANIC tempo. 21 — Teleport back to the previous area, take the now free yellow skullkey, press the secret switch and go back my way to the temple through the « secret » climbing path (I love climbing in doom), take a detour to the cells left in the "cratere" secret. Tired but relieved tempo. 22 — Quest for the elevated water and the exit : once in the temple, I go back to the garden and do the second part of the cheesing started on part 14. Some more monsters are agitated in the spider masterminds area, area still semi blocked until you hit some switch… I kill the most possible monsters from behind through this semi-open stairs, then go to the opening switch, press it, kill the pain elementals first, run to kill one spidermastermind (with BFG and some remaining cells)(the other is quickly occupied by others)… and try to survive by running back to the main temple to avoid the melee. Intense and semi-panic tempo. 23 — after area cleaned, go back on the right stairs, to the sluice mechanism, another plasma gun here, kill some stuff, not very hard. Mid tempo. 24 — After the water level is elevated, I go back to the temple, enter the toilets and have the last secret (had it by chance on my first tries of the map, because I like exploring)… then go back to the entrance of the temple, see the canal water is elevated too around the bridge, letting the player go back to the very beginning… but there are a whole lot of new monsters, spidermasterminds, pain elementals, archvile, barons etc… what did I do ? Enter the bridge, go quick on the west, kill arch vile with RL and, if I remember well, a pain elemental while running fast… then quickly go back to the beginning hiding myself behind the spidermastermind (that, with all the flying projectiles, is occupied infighting) and… wait a bit… after some annoying stuff killed, I kill restfully the remaining ones and, with the three skull keys, open the exit to embrace my buddies ! Things I’ve said about the archviles before might have been consequence of some strange choices of strategies… to say it quick, I was much more running quick from fights on my first attempts… anyway, this map, 10/10 (et ouais). Regarding the music, your choice, from my pov, fits quite well : minimalist rampant sadness. One last thing : might seems paradoxal with all the first feedbacks (including mine) but i'll go with Zahid once again, It could be nice to give link to the new version (which, like Napeyear said, is great work) AND also the first version which might feels better for veterans (I guess ?) Edited April 7 by apichatpong 1 Quote Share this post Link to post
Zahid Posted April 6 finally i finished the older version of map on UV without saves here is my demo popi9.zip and i withdraw with all my previous criticism this map is a masterpiece and i wouldnt ask or recommend any changes unless some bug.....gameplay is felt tedious at times but there sould be maps like this and ammo wise this map gave me strong vibes of The Mucus Flow 24 map of Community Chest 2,designed by B.P.R.D and after multiple playthroughs i can assure that it is even more fair ammo wise....although player got to calculate and save almost every bullet,rocket or shell it fired.... cyber area is tricky but not at all impossible.... i tried to achive 100% kills and secrets but i dont think its possiblr as revs in cyber area keeps on resurrected by AVs and cant found 1 secrets as i said earlier its a masterpiece of level with diffrent but great gameplay and its very hard map in non slaughter way..... (there is place where player can get stuck i point it out in my demo) its prboom demo 2 Quote Share this post Link to post
Napeyear Posted April 6 (edited) 14 hours ago, ByRntStarOEI said: Hide contents - Added more ammo and health throughout the map - Fixed some texture mistake I ran across (My first screenshot shows a couple lol) and did some touch up here and there - Tried to make it more clear that the temple area has more than one entrance and doesn't necessarily need a key to get inside - Rearranged some of the weapon pickups. Made the ssg more apparent and to give the player a goal to shoot for. The rl now requires a little more effort to get however. - Made use of an area that wasn't being used, to accommodate a new location for pickups and to draw players back to the area more. - Added yellow key card (might as well since it was the only one not being used :P) - Made expanding the garden area early more forgiving, especially on higher difficulties. It was a bit harsh to have archviles all over the player just for trying a switch out. Not saying they were completely removed however... -Made a few changes to the 4 way cyber fight: -Revenants can no longer be revived on any difficulty -Moved the teleport locations so the player can escape the area without having to get through a cyber -Made the activation triggers for the doors further out so the player has more time to get their bearings when they first teleport in. -Added a invisibility sphere on UV difficulty. -Added more ammo\health in the area. Hey just a heads up ByRntStarOEI, on dsda doom complevel 9 the blue key doors inside the temple don't seem to open when I have the key, however I tested it in GZDoom and it works. This could just be an issue on my end though so I would check it out for yourself. Going to replay the level on GZDoom this time around :P UPDATE: So I finished the level on HMP difficulty, this time using GZDoom and many of my previous comments remain the same, however I think you did a good job addressing many of the issues that I had with the first version of your level. I like that you added the yellow keycard where the old rocket launcher was so the player can go into the graveyard in the beginning area to grab the super shotgun earlier. The updated placement of the rocket launcher was a good idea too in my opinion. Spoiler Having it placed in the chapel area with all the imps was a nice change, and it was fun gibbing the imps while the arch vile desperately tries to hunt you down :) Also, nice job putting the yellow key in such a way that the player can see it in the window from inside the temple it helps to have visual cues so the player doesn't run around like a chicken with its head cut off trying to figure out where to go. I think that having more ammo and health was a good addition the level as well, and though I ran low on ammo in the later stages (such as the final spiderdemon encounter and the four way cyberdemon fight) I think this is due with me not getting monsters to infight like my playthrough of version one, so I'll chalk that up on player error (skill issue anyone?). Great work! I think you are already making some good changes to this level. Spoiler Also, I noticed (at least on HMP) that there was an additional yellow keycard at the bottom of the lava pit (the area where the cell pack secret & lost souls are, before you get to the dead behemoth). Was this intentional? At first I thought it was an error, however it might also work for the non-linear progression you were going for, as the player can ignore the blue key, and go straight here and back outside the temple to get the SSG early. Just curious. Edited April 6 by Napeyear 2 Quote Share this post Link to post
bioshockfan90 Posted April 7 Finished on 4/7/24 on DSDA-doom with a time of 33:55.14 HNTR 94K, 50I, 40S. Some areas are a bit too big for my tastes, almost comically so - and the caves themselves are piss-poor dark, it's hard at the beginning when you're running around headless because the map is so nonlinear and spectres and imps keep popping up with not many weapons to face them with. 3 biggest things I'd change for a future release are texture alignments, thing placement, and secret sectors. I noticed tiny misalignments over the map, especially with staircases. A lot of things like ammo or armor are just BARELY reachable and often tucked into a 64-wide alcove, usually at an angle; making it awkward to grab. Unfortunately I just swapped OSes to Ubuntu and have no idea where the screenshots are stored, but at least 2 secret sectors (1 by an existing secret, 1 by the red keycard) are too thin to stand in, therefore making the map impossible to max. Furthermore, on DSDA-doom, there is a game-breaking bug with the blue key doors not working. I had to noclip through them to progress. Other than that, this was pretty fun and as @apichatpong said in another thread, very '00s reminiscent. I've been playing a lot of Doom 1 wads lately so this was a nice changeup. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post
apichatpong Posted April 7 1 hour ago, bioshockfan90 said: Furthermore, on DSDA-doom, there is a game-breaking bug with the blue key doors not working. I had to noclip through them to progress. Tried it on prboom+ and same problem (while it worked fine on the first version). 2 Quote Share this post Link to post
ByRntStarOEI Posted April 8 Oh shoot, I'll have to look into these when I get back later tomorrow and see if I can get out a quick little update to fix these errors. Not sure what's going on with the blue key door problem being port specific and kudos for catching and figuring out the secrets error. I usually ignore secrets during my test runs so it slipped past me. Once again, thank yall for the feedback as well as the videos. It's much appreciated. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post
ByRntStarOEI Posted April 9 (edited) Alright, so I actually had a decent amount of time to work on my wad today, and I believe I have most of the kinks are ironed out. You may also noticed some new stuff and a few changes (It's hard for me to not tinker around with this wad when I open it up...) Any who, here is what I worked on in list form to keep it simple and to stop me from rambling on for too long (hopefully): Spoiler - Fix the problem with too many secrets being displayed in the total tally. - Fix the issue with the blue key doors not opening. (This one was strange as they worked fine in gzdoom, but not in dsda. It seemed to not like a walk activation linedef in front of a switch linedef??) - Move some Items and enemies that were accidentally moved to weird spots due to me not deselecting them when I went on to work on something else. - Same with the properties of certain items and enemies being wrong since I forget most of the time that they carry over from one another. - Fix and touched up some texture errors - Modified some fights\locations to balance them out some more. - Add some more stuff.... ITS A SECRET TO EVERYBODY - Did some more tinkering around with slade and added a title screen\music! Forgive me for the low quality lol - I'm pretty sure I missed a few things, so they go here. So yeah, this version should play much better than the others. I played through it a few time and I feel the flow and balance of the map is almost there. I believe some more work needs to be done to balance out the difficulty levels, especially for HMP, but I want to get some more input to see what direction I need to take it. Let me know if you run into any more problems. Any suggestions and/or criticisms are welcomed too. I have to cut it short at the moment, but hopefully I'll be able to respond back to some of you tomorrow that had a few questions\concerns. I also have a few questions about certain anomalies I'm encountering in my wad from time to time, that I want to figure out. Once again, thank you to those who gave feedback, as well as, those who gave my wad a shot. Edited April 9 by ByRntStarOEI grammer 4 Quote Share this post Link to post
ByRntStarOEI Posted April 13 (edited) Been a rather busy week, so I didn't have much of an opportunity to work on my wad. Managed to do some touch up here and there with some advice I received from the editing section, though. Also included a readme with the wad now and added CoOp starts. Pretty minor update, so I'm won't bother listing the changes, but rather use the opportunity to reply to some posts above. As usual, any feedback, positive or negative, is appreciated. As far as difficulty balance goes, I believe I just about got it. I'm usually swimming in ammo at the end of HNTR, have more than enough on HMP, and with UV requiring me to be more conservative and making every bullet count. This is all without using the secrets. I reckon a major concern is still the 4-way cyber fight and whether or not it still needs tweaking or just scrapped entirely. I haven't gave much though of what I could possibly replace it with, so I'm keeping with it for now. But it'll probably take a lot of negative feedback on it before I remove it anyway, as I really enjoy how it plays out (Zahid's 2nd demo does a really good job on how I intended this battle to play out. He even does it without the BFG!) On 4/6/2024 at 4:08 AM, Zahid said: finally i finished the older version of map on UV without saves here is my demo popi9.zip and i withdraw with all my previous criticism this map is a masterpiece and i wouldnt ask or recommend any changes unless some bug.....gameplay is felt tedious at times but there sould be maps like this and ammo wise this map gave me strong vibes of The Mucus Flow 24 map of Community Chest 2,designed by B.P.R.D and after multiple playthroughs i can assure that it is even more fair ammo wise....although player got to calculate and save almost every bullet,rocket or shell it fired.... cyber area is tricky but not at all impossible.... i tried to achive 100% kills and secrets but i dont think its possiblr as revs in cyber area keeps on resurrected by AVs and cant found 1 secrets as i said earlier its a masterpiece of level with diffrent but great gameplay and its very hard map in non slaughter way..... (there is place where player can get stuck i point it out in my demo) its prboom demo Thanks! I feel you are a bit to kind to call this map a masterpiece, but it is really encouraging to hear and I'm glad someone is getting enjoyment out of my wad, as I was worried it would be all for nothing when I was close to releasing it. Otherwise, awesome demo, although a bit unfortunate at the end. I really like your mechanical-like play style, using every situation to your advantage to pick apart every challenge thrown at you. You are a great doom player for sure. On 4/6/2024 at 4:08 AM, Zahid said: gameplay is felt tedious at times but there sould be maps like this and ammo wise this map gave me strong vibes of The Mucus Flow 24 map of Community Chest 2,designed by B.P.R.D and after multiple playthroughs i can assure that it is even more fair ammo wise....although player got to calculate and save almost every bullet,rocket or shell it fired.... On 4/6/2024 at 2:36 AM, apichatpong said: Edit (after what Zahid said) : just a few words about what Zahid said below, the Mucus flow is a great reference for your map, really true. From what I know about BPRD’s work, his texturing inspiration and yours are quite opposite, the melancholy his maps distill is more aerial, space oriented when yours seems more terrestrial and aquatic. To be honest, I’ve seen some great maps directly inspired by the kind of dreamstate Mucus Flow generates but their inspiration, at least to me, is more on the surface than on the spirit. The ammo starvation (or limitation) is not born with BPRD’s map but the radicality it instaured was really something else… In your map, it’s not coming back again and again to the same spot to refuel, it rather is coming back and explore more to find some hidden items, running and letting groups of monsters killing each other (or not). The archviles repopulating I evoked earlier is some kind of counterpart to the respawning chaingunners towers of Mucus flow and the relief I mentioned about your map is close to the one for the Mucus Flow player discovering the secret killing all the stocked chaingunners. Writing this, I’m starting to think that maybe the last secret is like in Mucus Flow, unreachable without cheating. Maybe you didn’t even thought about Mucus Flow while mapping but, for what I know (very limited), not sure I’ve seen maps getting that close to Mucus Flow feelings yet having their own identity. Honestly, I haven't heard of that level until now and after looking it up, realized I never played cc2 either. I'll have to give it a shot now, though. That being said, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of influences, from the many wads I've played, in my map, but I would say my main inspirations were "Plutonia: Go 2 it" and to some extent the meagwad "Going down". I played the heck out of "Go 2 it" when I was younger and still come back to it on occasion till this day. I always liked how there were a number of different approaches one could try to tackle the level while also being able to make it as chaotic as one sees fit. It may be nostalgia, but it's one of my top, favorite maps. On 4/6/2024 at 2:36 AM, apichatpong said: Got 5/10 secrets on my playthrough then spent some more time around the map and manage to get (after quite some time) 9/10. Can't find the last one (it's not the one you can obtain after the last evolution of the map, the one that don't give you anything but is real nice). Ah Ah, tried the new version : you really don't like "free weapons", I like that ! To be honest, on first impression, the quest for RL and SSG needs both more efforts... ... and you added some monsters ;-) Edit 2 : got the last secret and it seems broken (at least in gzdoom and prboom+) Reveal hidden contents the berserk secret location near the dragon count as two secrets but I only managed to get the second secret activation with idclip. Edit 3 : took a peak at UV and realized that the "secret that don't give you anything" I mentioned before gives you, in fact, computer map area, just this item don't appear on HNTR nor HMP. Edit 4 : The BPRD road, once again ? ;-) a cacodemon (thing 1359) is placed outside the map (like in nuts 3) Edit 5 : I don't record demos but here is my detailed "strategy" playthrough on HMP (a bit painful to read) : Reveal hidden contents 1 — first area : I kill almost everyone (the yellow door area’s shotgunners included) going back and forth on the bridge and on the water areas without entering the marble temple/castle (so leaving the bridge « intact »), taking all the ammo possible (take the secret soulsphere, tried once to leave it for the end fight, didn’t end well). The run is mostly fast, except for the Hell Knight and some distant imps/zombiemen 2 — enter the marble, wake up the imps, revenants and HK and, circle strafing, make them infight… then go on the right in the room with the half open blue key door, kill the bastards within and also, through open walls, HK and others stuff in the blue keycard room (so the future fight is easier). Slow tempo segment. 3 — come back to the entrance, go west just to get the shells accessible from the outside in the small red keycard room with chaingunner and revenant)(not killing them). Fast tempo. 4 — Quest to ssg : go back east, enter the cavern through the wooden door, kill the low tier monsters with pistol, then a chaingunner on the left (so get chaingun), waking up other monsters, go back to the entrance and jump on the left to attack the revenants with some protection (don’t always end well). Slow cramped tempo Once area cleaned : 5 —jump onto the cavern and shotgun the pinkies/spectres, also go on the left to get shells then run fast to the « cratere » take the yellow key card and instantly go back on my way through the thin rocky stairs (needing to kill some spectre/imps waiting for me and blocking my way) then run fast back to the temple. Slow then very fast tempo 6 — go back to the entrance of the marble area, click the yellow switch then only go west on the bridge to get the ssg. Kill the stuff, a bit helped by infighting. Mid tempo. 7 — Quest for the RL and blue skull key : re-enter the marble area, go west, enter the wooden room/library, ssg the bad stuff, go to the secret with red keycard, kill the new stuff and then go back to the red keycard door, kill chaingunner before opening then the manageable revenant, take all items (blue armor of course) except for the box of shells since the bunch of shotgunners in the « library » refueled me. Mid tempo. 8 — go to the bathroom/toilet, killing first, step by step, the revenant hidden in toilets, then the imps, take some extra health. Slow tempo. 9 — still on the same corridor, open the door to the « garden », quickly run right, open the other door and re-enter marble, kill hitscanners then enter the blue keycard room, kill the teleporting monsters inside the room and on the adjacent one (the one from part 2). Activate the secret with the megasphere but only take it if necessary. Slow tempo. 10 — run to the blue skull room, click the switch, run quickly to get the the RL then, very quickly, come back to the room entrance and rocket what I can (helped by some extra rocket taken along the way) aiming at the most possible to the archviles (after the imps wave). Finish the rest with ssg and chaingun. Finally take the blue skull key and some health/ammo. Very quick then « immobile » but intense. 11 — on my way back, open the second red keycard room, kill the manageable archvile and his friends, take the ammo and the berserk. Mid tempo. 12 — go back in the direction of the garden, before the garden door, go left through blue door, kill hitscanners then take a peak on the balcony to kill sniping revenant. Mid tempo. 13 — descend to the garden, run quick, the order of kills is very RNG, it depends on who start first infighting (the pinkies have tendency to easily get some shots), usually I go first to mancubus and chaingunner. Quick and intense. 14 — the, first part of a cheese strategy : kill two revenants thought the semi-closed stairs leading to the spidermasterminds area. Slow and very patient tempo. At that point, I usually have to come back and take the megasphere from part 9 15 — then come back to part 12, slowly kill monsters open room by open room, get the secret for ammo and the, at that point, unnecessary second yellow keycard. Slow tempo 16 — Quest for the red and yellow skull keys and the plasma/BFG : back to the cavern, kill some remaining spectres, go back to the lava, kill mancubus open the cells secret but take it only if needed (mostly not needed at that point because you get cells on some previously visited armory rooms). Then jump into the « dead dragon » room, ssg some spectres, chaingun and ssg some cacodemons (there are ammo in the room to refuel and you also can went back to find some), save my remaining rockets for the hidden baron. Walk on the monster, face his head, open one of his eyes, secret berserk. Midtempo to fast tempo area. 17 — you then have to go deep in the cave on a path blocked by a not so threatening HK, then you see more and more lava, chaingun some imps and lost souls and fall into another big cave full of lava. Compared to ITYTD where you have a protectionsuit, this area is tougher (half a dozen mancubi and two pain elementals + damaging floor almost everywhere)… quickly go left to get the plasma, use it to kill the pain elementals and a bit for a mancubus or two but save some cells for what is waiting for me after that. Finish the rest with rocket (If I still have some) and mostly ssg. Quick but be careful tempo. 18 — this leads to a tiny transition cave with ammo (and a bit of health) just before The big cave. Enter it fast, run to kill chaingunners, then turn around the big room to generate infight (a bit) and shooting some monsters on my way. Then take the red skull key which, if I remember well, teleports some manageable revenants. Quick and a bit absurd tempo. 19 — one of my favorite part, after the cave is cleaned, I take all the ammo possible, click on the switch opening doors on the stairs area, One cyber appears with two arachnotrons, the three being blocked by stairs to a higher level than yours. Just have the time to rocket an arachnotron while hidden on the left of the stairs, then a whole bunch of cacodemons, some spectres and revenants teleport on your back… not saying it works all the time but, I dance a bit, shoot revenants… with some splash damage, or well directioned rockets, the spectres will mostly be occupied by the cyber and then I end with my group of cacodemons that I slowly lead around the cave to be in the way of cyberdemon’s rockets… One by one, they infight… and lose… In the end I use my saved cells to quickly finish the already damaged cyber. Then, I press the second switch and get the secret armor, backpack… After that, enter the room where the cyber was initially placed, take the huge amount of ammo… and the BFG. Intense then absurdly (but funnily) slow tempo. 20 — The big stuff : after pressing two switches in the last room, a teleport appears, I take it to the four cybers (and 50 revenants + some lost souls) fight. To be honest, only beat the fight once, with luck, on the older version (but I’m not a good doom player), managed to take it twice on the new version, still some luck but also a more complete arsenal. You have some places to hide a bit from the cybers but always for a very short time since revenants are shooting you from nearly everywhere… Anyway, it’s a bit over my skills but, as Zahid said, it’s tough but not impossible (never tried to kill all the revenants). PANIC tempo. 21 — Teleport back to the previous area, take the now free yellow skullkey, press the secret switch and go back my way to the temple through the « secret » climbing path (I love climbing in doom), take a detour to the cells left in the "cratere" secret. Tired but relieved tempo. 22 — Quest for the elevated water and the exit : once in the temple, I go back to the garden and do the second part of the cheesing started on part 14. Some more monsters are agitated in the spider masterminds area, area still semi blocked until you hit some switch… I kill the most possible monsters from behind through this semi-open stairs, then go to the opening switch, press it, kill the pain elementals first, run to kill one spidermastermind (with BFG and some remaining cells)(the other is quickly occupied by others)… and try to survive by running back to the main temple to avoid the melee. Intense and semi-panic tempo. 23 — after area cleaned, go back on the right stairs, to the sluice mechanism, another plasma gun here, kill some stuff, not very hard. Mid tempo. 24 — After the water level is elevated, I go back to the temple, enter the toilets and have the last secret (had it by chance on my first tries of the map, because I like exploring)… then go back to the entrance of the temple, see the canal water is elevated too around the bridge, letting the player go back to the very beginning… but there are a whole lot of new monsters, spidermasterminds, pain elementals, archvile, barons etc… what did I do ? Enter the bridge, go quick on the west, kill arch vile with RL and, if I remember well, a pain elemental while running fast… then quickly go back to the beginning hiding myself behind the spidermastermind (that, with all the flying projectiles, is occupied infighting) and… wait a bit… after some annoying stuff killed, I kill restfully the remaining ones and, with the three skull keys, open the exit to embrace my buddies ! Things I’ve said about the archviles before might have been consequence of some strange choices of strategies… to say it quick, I was much more running quick from fights on my first attempts… anyway, this map, 10/10 (et ouais). Regarding the music, your choice, from my pov, fits quite well : minimalist rampant sadness. One last thing : might seems paradoxal with all the first feedbacks (including mine) but i'll go with Zahid once again, It could be nice to give link to the new version (which, like Napeyear said, is great work) AND also the first version which might feels better for veterans (I guess ?) Yeah, I believe the ssg, if given out too early, can make a lot of fights trivial and also kinda force the rest of the map to be balanced around ssg play. Of course, That doesn't mean I like having to fight a whole lot of high hp monsters with low powered weapons either, but if it's done right and in a unique way, it can be fun on occasion. But my intention was the player has the choice to either Get it as quickly as possible, but at the risk of things getting out of hand real quick or go the slow careful approach which may take longer to acquire it. Can't say if I succeeded in that regard or not.. Thanks for catching these bugs. Nothing intentional here, just my clumsy mistakes. Great play through write up. Helped me see some ways to improve the map better and I like how everyone seems to gave a different approach to tackling the map. Your feedback and insights have been very helpful and encouraging in keeping me to finish this wad . On 4/6/2024 at 1:37 PM, Napeyear said: Hey just a heads up ByRntStarOEI, on dsda doom complevel 9 the blue key doors inside the temple don't seem to open when I have the key, however I tested it in GZDoom and it works. This could just be an issue on my end though so I would check it out for yourself. Going to replay the level on GZDoom this time around :P UPDATE: So I finished the level on HMP difficulty, this time using GZDoom and many of my previous comments remain the same, however I think you did a good job addressing many of the issues that I had with the first version of your level. I like that you added the yellow keycard where the old rocket launcher was so the player can go into the graveyard in the beginning area to grab the super shotgun earlier. The updated placement of the rocket launcher was a good idea too in my opinion. Reveal hidden contents Having it placed in the chapel area with all the imps was a nice change, and it was fun gibbing the imps while the arch vile desperately tries to hunt you down :) Also, nice job putting the yellow key in such a way that the player can see it in the window from inside the temple it helps to have visual cues so the player doesn't run around like a chicken with its head cut off trying to figure out where to go. I think that having more ammo and health was a good addition the level as well, and though I ran low on ammo in the later stages (such as the final spiderdemon encounter and the four way cyberdemon fight) I think this is due with me not getting monsters to infight like my playthrough of version one, so I'll chalk that up on player error (skill issue anyone?). Great work! I think you are already making some good changes to this level. Reveal hidden contents Also, I noticed (at least on HMP) that there was an additional yellow keycard at the bottom of the lava pit (the area where the cell pack secret & lost souls are, before you get to the dead behemoth). Was this intentional? At first I thought it was an error, however it might also work for the non-linear progression you were going for, as the player can ignore the blue key, and go straight here and back outside the temple to get the SSG early. Just curious. Thanks for catching these bugs and for the great feedback too. I appreciate the encouraging words. Yeah, it was something I took for granted since I knew where everything was and what to expect when I played through it. It wasn't until watching others play it that I realized the certain parts of it was rather obtuse to someone new to playing it. The second Y. key was intentional. Just another option for the player to take (I did make it a little more dangerous than before, however). On 4/7/2024 at 12:53 PM, bioshockfan90 said: Finished on 4/7/24 on DSDA-doom with a time of 33:55.14 HNTR 94K, 50I, 40S. Some areas are a bit too big for my tastes, almost comically so - and the caves themselves are piss-poor dark, it's hard at the beginning when you're running around headless because the map is so nonlinear and spectres and imps keep popping up with not many weapons to face them with. 3 biggest things I'd change for a future release are texture alignments, thing placement, and secret sectors. I noticed tiny misalignments over the map, especially with staircases. A lot of things like ammo or armor are just BARELY reachable and often tucked into a 64-wide alcove, usually at an angle; making it awkward to grab. Unfortunately I just swapped OSes to Ubuntu and have no idea where the screenshots are stored, but at least 2 secret sectors (1 by an existing secret, 1 by the red keycard) are too thin to stand in, therefore making the map impossible to max. Furthermore, on DSDA-doom, there is a game-breaking bug with the blue key doors not working. I had to noclip through them to progress. Other than that, this was pretty fun and as @apichatpong said in another thread, very '00s reminiscent. I've been playing a lot of Doom 1 wads lately so this was a nice changeup. These are all valid criticisms. I agree some areas are a little too big. It was a pain trying to fill them out and balance. A the time, I felt I was a the point of no return and didn't try to shrink them. I learn quite a bit from this mistake however, but if I do more mapping in the future I'll try to keep things smaller in scale. The darkness being to dark is due to me not being able to decide which renderer to map for. I did bring the lightness up a notch in the update however. There is also the options of grabbing the googles in the office area for those who don't like spelunking in the dark. I tried fixing all the texture misalignment's I could find, but I'm pretty sure I missed a few. Thanks for the feedback and pointing out the bugs. Much appreciated On 4/6/2024 at 4:29 PM, Delisk said: Great video! I like how you played a more action/rush play style, as I tried taking that approach into account as well. I'm glad you finished it through completion though, as there were a few moments where I was worried you might be getting feed up. Hopefully you got some enjoyment out of it and it was too frustrating. Thanks everyone for taking the time to try out my wad. Edited April 13 by ByRntStarOEI 4 Quote Share this post Link to post
Zahid Posted April 15 (edited) well i finished new version too on uv i would prefer first version though it was more tight and calculated on ammo,this new version provide lot more shells so its not necessary to start infight or control pain elementals from emitting extra skulls, and ssg near end seems not so contributing plus killing spiders with single shotgun was also boring,extra armors also give more chances to make mistakes..... like the new AV appearance after spider area switch though one thing i forget to admire was awesome and tactical use of backpack i able to achive 100% kills but cant found 1 secrets as its not shown on automap either heres my almost uv max demo again i killed myself at end end time is 1 hour and 3 mins killing all rev in cyber area was boring too btw and new placement of teleporters in that area was also strange imo prboom cl9 popi9 Edited April 15 by Zahid typos 2 Quote Share this post Link to post
apichatpong Posted April 18 After 10 days of holidays, I came back again here (by the way, what an incredible month of april, just went back and so many exciting wads posted during my trip). Well, I can understand Zahid criticism on the last versions since it’s more approachable than the first one, that said, this new version fits perfectly to me. I followed more or less the same path as presented in my last post and some encounters felt a bit tougher yet doable. Some of my « strategies » don’t work anymore (for instance the HK-revenant infight in the entrance of the temple, since the HK wake up before entering and come to the bridge. Here and there, some more monsters (I think). More notably, in the end, it seems that you changed place of some monsters so it’s more difficult to make the spidermastermind infight… but maybe it’s me, and the jet lag). I definitively love the way you can be shot from everywhere (through sneaky open walls, for instance (and among others !) the HK and the chaingunners guarding the temple’s yellow key card that can shoot you while you are rocketing the guys in the RL room) or followed, making you feel constantly harassed but, once again, in a non-slaughter way (nice to know that Go 2 it is an influence of yours for this map, I can see some link, but Got 2 it (that I don’t know that well, tbh) feels more slaugherish)… It wasn’t planned but I had to do another tour on the map before the end fight (I forgot the yellow skull key…) and the atmosphere of this tour was quite something, a mix of threat and, as I already said, relief. It took me quite some time to find the new MS secret, nice one ! Hope we’ll see some more of your work in the future ! 1 Quote Share this post Link to post
ByRntStarOEI Posted April 24 (edited) So, I haven't had the chance to work on my wad much as of late, since some personal stuff came up suddenly and also being busy with work. I also reckon I'm getting a bit burnt out with doom mapping and wanted to take a break for a bit in actually playing some other doom wads I've had my eyes on (I've also recently purchased the system shock remake which doesn't help either). But don't worry, I'm not abandoning it and plan on doing some finishing touches on it when opportunity presents itself, which should be sooner rather than later. On 4/15/2024 at 12:04 PM, Zahid said: well i finished new version too on uv i would prefer first version though it was more tight and calculated on ammo,this new version provide lot more shells so its not necessary to start infight or control pain elementals from emitting extra skulls, and ssg near end seems not so contributing plus killing spiders with single shotgun was also boring,extra armors also give more chances to make mistakes..... like the new AV appearance after spider area switch though one thing i forget to admire was awesome and tactical use of backpack i able to achive 100% kills but cant found 1 secrets as its not shown on automap either heres my almost uv max demo again i killed myself at end end time is 1 hour and 3 mins killing all rev in cyber area was boring too btw and new placement of teleporters in that area was also strange imo prboom cl9 popi9 Once again, great demo and I appreciate the feedback. Watching you play, I can tell you already have a lot of the areas figured out, which probably does make it rather easy. That being said, I was thinking of making UV more geared towards having played though before and looking for a greater challenge. Requiring more careful thought in how one proceeds through the level and rationing out ammo usage. -Also, you may not have realized it, but there is a ssg near the beginning of the map that you could have gotten with the yellow keycard. -I though I actually reduced the amount of armors in UV... -The teleporters were moved for those who want to escape the battle, easier. I felt it didn't change much, since one still has to get through the cybers to push forward anyway. -I agree with killing of revs in the cyber arena and was one of the last things I was working on before getting sidetracked. May make it easier to get to them, to fight or do a less is more approach with a couple of revs that get revived by villes (like old times). I even thought of teleporting in a bunch of barrels at the end of the battle to make them easier to kill. -You seem to have a gift in finding secrets as it appears you find them easily without a sweat. You actually found all of the secrets (Shooting the 2 pegs for the megaorb) , It just didn't activate due to the weird process I did it to make it work. I believe I have a solution to help fix this problem however. Thanks for your time On 4/18/2024 at 10:21 AM, apichatpong said: After 10 days of holidays, I came back again here (by the way, what an incredible month of april, just went back and so many exciting wads posted during my trip). Well, I can understand Zahid criticism on the last versions since it’s more approachable than the first one, that said, this new version fits perfectly to me. I followed more or less the same path as presented in my last post and some encounters felt a bit tougher yet doable. Some of my « strategies » don’t work anymore (for instance the HK-revenant infight in the entrance of the temple, since the HK wake up before entering and come to the bridge. Here and there, some more monsters (I think). More notably, in the end, it seems that you changed place of some monsters so it’s more difficult to make the spidermastermind infight… but maybe it’s me, and the jet lag). I definitively love the way you can be shot from everywhere (through sneaky open walls, for instance (and among others !) the HK and the chaingunners guarding the temple’s yellow key card that can shoot you while you are rocketing the guys in the RL room) or followed, making you feel constantly harassed but, once again, in a non-slaughter way (nice to know that Go 2 it is an influence of yours for this map, I can see some link, but Got 2 it (that I don’t know that well, tbh) feels more slaugherish)… It wasn’t planned but I had to do another tour on the map before the end fight (I forgot the yellow skull key…) and the atmosphere of this tour was quite something, a mix of threat and, as I already said, relief. It took me quite some time to find the new MS secret, nice one ! Hope we’ll see some more of your work in the future ! Thanks for the help and support, much appreciated! I agree with the amount of great content that gets released every week on this site. I never really looked deep into these boards before joining and realized I've been missing out on some great wads once I did. In the past, I mostly just tried out the wads mentioned in the cacoawards and didn't look much beyond that, which is a shame really, because a lot of good wads got overlooked. Yes, I'm finding it a balancing act it trying to make all playstyles fun, but realizing that I probably can't make everyone happy in that regard. The HK waking up before entering the main entrance was an oversight with sound travel which I have in my notes to fix. He shouldn't be coming out like he does currently. This also ties in with the PM you sent me about the bridge activation. Since I made the opening a bit larger for some enemies to get through that couldn't before, it increased the distance of the activation lines without me thinking about it. It shouldn't actually break anything, it just makes the explosion sounds off compared to what's happening. This should be an easy fix, but I have thought about changing this sequence up a bit. It seems most players don't really notice that something is going on with the bridge because they are too focused on the combat at hand. Perhaps I could make the bridge event happen sooner, so it's more obvious. Glad you liked the new secret as I put a bit of thought in that one and wanted it to be tricky to find (except to the observant player) as it seems a lot of the earlier secrets were pretty easily found by those who played through it. I'm happy you are enjoying my map, as it makes it worth the time I put into building it, knowing at least a few others are getting some enjoyment from it. Thanks Edited April 24 by ByRntStarOEI grammer 2 Quote Share this post Link to post
fuGue_tv Posted May 1 Below is a full playthru, just under two hours. At first I was questioning the balancing, but as I kept progressing, I started to understand the vision behind this level. It was a wonderful experience, especially with voxels!https://youtu.be/ObU7Nh4H82E 1 Quote Share this post Link to post
ByRntStarOEI Posted May 19 On 5/1/2024 at 10:48 AM, fuGue_tv said: Below is a full playthru, just under two hours. At first I was questioning the balancing, but as I kept progressing, I started to understand the vision behind this level. It was a wonderful experience, especially with voxels!https://youtu.be/ObU7Nh4H82E Thanks for playing and making a video. Excellent gameplay here, actually gave me the motivation to fix up this map and complete it. Yeah, the voxels look great, but I've been holding back in using it because I didn't want it to influence how I went about making my map. I'll have to give it a go now though. Great stream, by the way. I really like the laid back nature and will have to keep an eye out for your content in the future. Your feedback was helpful in seeing the thought process of how one goes about playing through the map. Made some minor adjustments to hopefully make the gameplay smoother. This is the second demo I've seen where the SSG near the entrance was missed, but I'm glad you carried on and didn't quit out of frustration. I've released the (hopefully) final version with more content if you're interested in giving it another try. Once again, I appreciate the feedback. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post
ByRntStarOEI Posted May 19 (edited) Greetings! I've finally had some time and motivation these past couple of weeks and used it to updated my map. It's now in a state that I would call complete and just needs some final testing before I go put it up on DW/idgames. The update actually has a bit more changes and content added, so some things may not necessarily play the same as before. Yeah, I know. I've milked this map long enough lol, but I've put it to good use to learn some new things with doom wads you'll see.... I'm not going to give too much away, but I will say there are more ways to complete the map now and secrets to be found too. As far as difficulty goes, it probably still needs some more balance, but I have made some changes to each (with the most in making UV more challenging). Once again, any feedback is appreciated. I'm sure there are still mistakes to be found and adjustments to balance needed. The download has been updated in the first post. Edited May 19 by ByRntStarOEI 3 Quote Share this post Link to post
Napeyear Posted May 20 (edited) Just finished the latest version on GZDoom on UV and I thought it was awesome, I think the balance with ammo/health and item placement was a huge improvement on the other versions (I thought each version that came out improved on the previous one, so sorry if this comment seems repetitive lol), and it's cool to see how far this map has come since the very first version that was posted over a month ago. The additional secrets were really nice too, and I think they really helped with the balancing as well. Spoiler The secret supercharge in the tree was very helpful, it made the first half of the level a lot easier. Also the CK replacement with the blinking eyes was really cool too! The way you give the player hints about how many are in each area once you acquire the computer map was really well thought out too and I had fun trying to figure out where the were at. The second one in the hell area with the cyberdemons and revs was really hard to see, and I had to crank my gamma to max to find it, I would suggest making it glow or the sector it sits in brighter. I loved how the music transitions as you go into certain areas, it makes the level really moody and the music choice was appropriate for each given area. I took a different route than my other playthroughs, and went straight for the yellow key in the cavern and went to the beginning area to grab the SSG, then went for the blue skullkey, the red key, going for the mega armor and secret supercharges along the way, and grabbed the plasma gun before entering the four way cyberdemon fight which I manged to figure out how to beat this time without cheesing! that was a huge morale boost lol. I like the ending level along with the secret ending/fight, which I managed to find after about an hour and a half of total play time, and I had a lot of fun exploring the map. I forgot how large the cavern and temple section was, and I managed to back track quite a bit to find those last secrets, but I managed to get 10/12 secrets. This level was really well made, and I think the work that you put into balancing and adjusting the weapon and key placement really payed off, and made this a really memorable nonlinear level for me. Also, I'm not sure if this was intentional or not, but the level slots are MAP01, MAP03, and MAP04 which I found odd. Was there a reason you skipped the MAP02 slot? Spoiler The secret fight was bizarre and I spent many attempts trying to kill the 'ghost' archvile before realizing you had to avoid his line of sight 4 rotations in a row before you could hit the switch safely and send rockets into the IoS brain. Really cool idea, though people who hate IoS fights may despise it lol. Luckily it's a secret fight so I don't think this is a big problem, and I thought it was pretty fun once I figured out how you are supposed to beat it. Overall, this was the best version of Excavation yet. There are still some minor issues like texture misalignment in the temple, mostly in the doorways leading into the blue skull area, and the northern most teleporter pad on the revenant platform in the four way cyberdemon room was missing lower textures, resulting in a HOM. This same platform wouldn't let me traverse across it whenever I teleported onto it, I think the linedefs were flipped the wrong direction, as I would teleport back to the central area whenever I tried to get off it and explore the revenant platform and I had to noclip to get across it. Despite this, I really enjoyed watching this level come together and playing through each version along the way! Can't wait to see future levels from you. Edited May 21 by Napeyear 2 Quote Share this post Link to post
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