Mapsets and Maporders and You

[BluePineapple72]

Hey folks!

I've got these wads that I'm sitting on and a few of them have this particular issue that I keep running into. Ordering. With 30+ levels in any given wad I find that it is fairly difficult to figure out what order they should all go into. Although 'easiest to hardest' is a pretty... well... straightforward and completely reasonable ordering strata, I find that there are issues with clumping all of the hardest levels together towards the end. Likewise with community projects, mappers each have their own distinctive flavorings and styles that make their maps unique therefore quantifying a level solely based on it's difficulty leaves some other traits ignored (If I get 5 atmospheric or walking simulator type levels in a project they are objectively going to be the easiest, so I don't want to clump them towards the front.)

 

There's also the issue of mental organization. Trying to keep track of the several different pieces of a level can get pretty tough for me.

 

What methods do you use to pick the map order of your wad? For your community projects how do you go about organizing information to keep yourself from getting lost and whatnot?

 

Spoiler

https://i.imgur.com/OeCyDzx.png

 

This is the spreadsheet I'm using for Die Rowdy. I've got a key for difficulty and a key for the level's theme (1 being realistic, 5 being abstract). I feel as if though it could be more... betterer.

 

Particularly, with this mapset, I'm having an issue finding out where to place MAP39 by Neil Forshaw. That level has 40 or so monsters (sandwiched between two 300+ monster levels) so I feel that it is an appropriate breather between these two. Especially since it is a more atmospheric and horror-driven level I feel that it would be appropriate towards the climatic actiony portions. But there is also the issue of whether or not this level is actually appropriate here. Will it kill the momentum? Will the previous level's supplies ruin this level? Would this level be better suited towards the ending? I just don't know! Making this map order was a pain in the ass, so any future helpings for reorganization will be a HUGE help.

 

[SleepyVelvet]

Quite a dilemma.

 

I'm thinking back to when I was a new player playing AV for the first time.  If I ran into any of the last several maps towards the beginning, there's a good chance I'd stop playing.  Even by my current skill, I still find the last few maps after Map26 Dark Dome to be too much of a slog to be worth playing through back-to-back, so I actually secretly consider Map26 to be AV's de facto final boss map.  That may be because I consider this stretch to be more of back-to-back slog than a difficulty thing, though.

 

I think today regardless, I prefer multiple short episodes of ramping difficulty over alternative orderings.  Walking simulators make more sense as breathers in-between than a single back-to-back clump, of course. 

 

For potential showstoppers, like your difficulty X maps, maybe it should be a secret map at most in that episode, or otherwise be shoved into the end of the WAD.

 

(If using UMAPINFO) Off a whim, I'd say: group by theme first, then sort by difficulty, but put difficulty X maps into secret maps.  That assumes the typical player can pridefully muscle through each last stretch of difficulty A maps as episode finales, and assumes your contributors don't mind their maps having secret exits shoehorned in for difficulty X maps, or having their hard X maps being sequestered into secrets.

 

(If stuck in 32 Map Megawad Structure) I'd do themed episodes from difficulty E-through-A, but just shove the X's into the end of the WAD or into Map31 and Map32 slots.

 

 

PS. in your Die Rowdy example, I see you're wrestling with other degrees of nuance and considerations.  All your X's are all one theme, and you're trying to decide to sacrifice Neil Forshaw's map for the greater good of that episode.  Good luck lol.

 

Thank God I've never run a community project. :)

 

Edit: I'd just put Neil's level at the beginning, per my initial thoughts, and let the X's be one stretch, if I'm following my previous logic consistently.  It's kinda subjective and you know more, of course.

Edited April 11 by SleepyVelvet

[NecrumWarrior]

I think having some difficulty spikes along the way and having a map or two for relief toward the end is a good way to go. Peaks and valleys so to speak, rather than just a linear progression of difficulty. Finding that balance is not so easy or prescriptive though. Ideally you would want to try a few orderings, but I know that the playtesting for that would be long and playtesters at hand are not going to have a lot of time to offer since we can't pay them. It doesn't need to perfect though, this is a hobby we all do for fun after all. My main advice would be not to worry yourself too much thinking about it. 

[Weird Sandwich]

6 minutes ago, NecrumWarrior said:

I think having some difficulty spikes along the way and having a map or two for relief toward the end is a good way to go. Peaks and valleys so to speak, rather than just a linear progression of difficulty. Finding that balance is not so easy or prescriptive though. Ideally you would want to try a few orderings, but I know that the playtesting for that would be long and playtesters at hand are not going to have a lot of time to offer since we can't pay them. It doesn't need to perfect though, this is a hobby we all do for fun after all. My main advice would be not to worry yourself too much thinking about it. 

 

The best way I've seen this expressed is as the "difficulty saw":

 

 

That is, difficulty on average steadily rises but you get peaks and valleys relative to player skill as mentioned. This saw pattern can apply within a map (e.g. with weapon progression), across an episode (with map difficulties), and over the whole wad (with episode difficulties).

 

The page the graph is from has a good discussion on the topic:

 

http://www.davetech.co.uk/difficultycurves

 

[BluePineapple72]

2 hours ago, SleepyVelvet said:

difficulty X maps into secret maps.

I have a few issues hiding hard maps in the secret map slots.

 

1. While it is a nice way to alleviate the difficulty of these levels by having them put into an 'optional' slot, I don't really want to hide people's work like that. It is an error on my part given that PUSS typically doesn't have any sort of metrics or standards for how difficult level submissions should be, but regardless of that I still want to treat everyone's contribution as being a part of the 'main' project equally rather than having to hide some levels.

 

2. PUSS usually has pre-comissioned secret levels that have some sort of goal or theme in mind appropriate for the project. Typically these levels can be difficult, but I find for a level to be secret it needs something beyond just the difficulty for it to be put into that slot.

[RHhe82]

From a player’s perspective: while ordering by difficulty feels like the natural choice, I welcome breathers. Especially in a megawad, I often find myself wishing MAP29/30 wouldn’t be the hardest or the most tedious (as the end-stretch of AV that was already brought up) and instead be some sort of pressure-relief power trip or a short burst. Like in Ancient Aliens, the final actual map is not an easy one, but it’s definitely not the hardest nor the longest.

[Doomy__Doom]

11 hours ago, BluePineapple72 said:

1. While it is a nice way to alleviate the difficulty of these levels by having them put into an 'optional' slot, I don't really want to hide people's work like that. It is an error on my part given that PUSS typically doesn't have any sort of metrics or standards for how difficult level submissions should be, but regardless of that I still want to treat everyone's contribution as being a part of the 'main' project equally rather than having to hide some levels. 

For everything below I'm assuming a) X is a "doomgodding not optional" grade unfit for general consumption and b) the goal is to allow mapper vision and keep those levels in.

 

 

For a fairly regular occurrence like puss it might make sense to introduce a dedicated "play these on HNTR/HMP, you've been warned" episode (via umapinfo or something) as a regular container for extreme difficulty outlier submissions.

Upsides:

- the work is right there on selection screen, not secret/missable

- people who can handle a fair assortment of maps (let's say E-B on your scale) won't be kicked in the teeth in an unpleasant way with no warning

- you could institute a rule that would require maps X-rated on UV to ensure a downgrade of HNTR/HMP to B or lower grade for audience reach, which is more limited than a project-wide restriction. UV crowd is warned explicitly in-game via their episode choice.

 

Downsides:

- loss of breather levels

- loss of continuous benefits at the start

- effectively guarantees "dumping hard levels at the end" issue. You just have two ends now.

 

An episode doesn't satisfy "not hiding levels" in the strictest sense (i.e. unmissable as long as you press "next level"), but honestly I don't think "doomgod-rated", "not randomly kicking in the teeth a far-from-doomgod player who is fine in 90% of the submitted maps" and "smack in the middle of typical linear megawad progression" have an intersection on a Venn diagram. The way I see it, one has to either abandon some of the players (say, enforce downgrade on HNTR but keep HMP/UV as per author vision, or keep only UV and downgrade HMP/HNTR) or put the maps explicitly outside of default path.

 

Alternative to an episode - there could be something like a mini-interlude level before X-rated ones, with text warning and regular/secret exit (umapinfo etc) used in lieu of a skip button. Or, should a given author be on board, a voidspace at the start of such level for the same purpose.

 

 

P.S. Take it with a barrel of salt, I've only ever arranged one community project and more or less went for the saw thing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Stupid Bunny]

It is tricky.  In my two sets ever I've tried to take into account

1. Difficulty progression, approaching it like as a saw as @Weird Sandwich described.  Sometimes a really hard map out of nowhere is kind of fun, especially if there's a bit of a breather a map or two later.  This can of course sometimes be too much, especially in community projects, like with Mortal Trap in Literalism where the sudden insane spike kind of, so I've been told, kept a lot of people from continuing to later less insane maps.  I'm not sure what the best way around this is, I personally wouldn't object to having a crazy or really weird map of mine put in a secret slot because secret maps are cool and curious people will tend to navigate straight to them at some point anyway. 
2. Thematic/narrative progression.  Obviously very subjective and dependent on what the mapper wants to achieve.  This may be very linear, or also seesaw, depending on whether the story is of a gradual progression or repeated punctuated equilibrium of lots of different things happening: Going Down, as an example, kind of achieves both simultaneously, while Scythe II obviously is broken up into very discrete and somewhat thematically homogeneous episodes.  I'm sure there's some good examples of a mapset that e.g. transitions smoothly from techbase to corrupted techbase to straight hell by the end, but I haven't played like any wads ever so someone else will have to provide that example.
3. Variety of play styles.  I try and prevent having too many maps in a row that all play the same way, be that slaughtery, hitscannery, puzzly, long etc.  Otherwise I think sections of the set can become too monotonous.  This can kind of go with both of the above, for instance by having the exploration/walking maps come after some harder ones to change up the pace a bit.  I really like having a lower-monster-count atmospheric/horror map in the very late game to break up what is usually a lot of frenetic action: it can still be made very difficult, but the sudden pause can really heighten the atmosphere at this stage.

[Insaneprophet]

I kind of have an intamite knowledge of the exact mapset you speak of struggling with and have had a very personel experience with it. All I can say is that, to me, there were maybe 4 outliers in difficulty that if found anywhere except the very end or in secret slots may be the type that stop a casual player from either being able to continue on or even desire to continue on. The vast bulk of the maps vary in range from easy to middling to hard to very hard (but doable) and I can understand any order of mixing and matching be it gradual or seesaw back an forth. I am glad I am not in your position as I can undertand all of your issues and wants for the project and its maps. Sorry I really cant offer a definative answer, just another opinion to consider (or not) but I do know that all players have different skill lvls, preferances and tolerances. There were, like I said maybe 4 maps that I just could not handle on UV, and though I had no problems dropping the difficulty to try attempts at them, I feel that goofs up progression when they are sandwiched between or before maps that are easily finishable on the higher difficulty. Hence when I offered my ordering I left them at the end in case a player were to bounce off of them they will have already experienced all the maps they can handle before needing to drop the difficulty lvl. Perhaps multiple episodes selectable at the menu screen is the best sounding option but I have no knowledge of the ease or problems with implementing such a thing. Those are my 15 cents, I know not very useful, but mayhaps of some benefit. Good luck and I thank you for all of your hard work and contributions. Looking forward to the finished product and all that you do. 😀

Edited April 12 by Insaneprophet

[Horus]

Echo others’ thoughts that a strict difficulty curve can get tiresome, peaks and troughs are less offputting imo.

 

I also like to think about aesthetics in terms of map order, not just in terms of the obvious episodic structure (e.g. hell maps at end), but also in terms of their look and feel within a particular episode. A prime example of this is map 30 of mayhem 2020, Fleshipice. It’s not that long or difficult compared to the maps that precede it, but it has a grand and imposing architecture and atmosphere that to me makes it really fit as the choice of final map.

Edited April 12 by Horus

[rita remton]

umm... perhaps you can arrange the maps based on difficulty using the [3-act story structure] as below? the structure is usually used in movies, stage plays, etc. hope this helps, and good luck! :)

Edited April 12 by rita remton