A very simple question

[Homer_hardware]

A very simple question I have about ammo balancing in a doom wad. Is it a bad thing to give the player too much ammo? Or is it better to make ammo scarce so that the player has to save ammo by Berserk packing demons? 

[Professor Hastig]

That entirely depends on what gameplay experience you want to provide. Both approaches have their pros and cons.

If you want to provide a tight experience where the player has to be careful with ammo use, always keep in mind that some players may be bad shots and if you provide too little the map stops being fun.

 

 

[Kinsie]

Yeah, this is a very "how long is a piece of string" question. It really depends on the kind of experience you want to give the player, and how forgiving you want to be for those inevitable mistakes.

[Homer_hardware]

5 minutes ago, Kinsie said:

Yeah, this is a very "how long is a piece of string" question. It really depends on the kind of experience you want to give the player, and how forgiving you want to be for those inevitable mistakes.

For what Im trying to make it is probably better to give the player more ammo than needed.

[Stabbey]

This depends on the experience you want to give the player.

 

I will say that I do not enjoy mandatory use of Berserk for substantial portions of gameplay. Doomguy's primary defense is high mobility allowing them to evade demons, and having to get up close and personal often makes that more difficult. Particularly because it is not something I practice often. In addition, when all you have is a fist, combat gets very repetitive and monotonous, and I don't have the patience for long stretches of forced berserk gameplay.

 

I definitely lean on the side of "provide more ammo than is required" side.

[Cilian]

Make the map what you'd want to play yourself

[VICE]

In my opinion, for classic UV, you should give the player roughly 10% more ammo than they need to kill everything assuming perfect aim, then add some extra ammo in secret areas. Then add more ammo for lower difficulties.
If that's what you meant by ammo balancing, you don't have to be meticulous with it. Make an estimate and then balance it as you playtest, account for different weapon approaches etc.

 

You can also give them a chainsaw or berserk to fall back on to conserve ammo if they need it. My own approach is that if think ammo is tight, I'll engage in melee whenever it's advantageous. This includes sneak attacking barons with berserk if there's only one or two or they haven't spotted me yet. :)

Edited April 22 by VICE

[Artinum]

For me, the main aim of a map should be that it's fun to play. If Berserk packs and punching demons into a fine red paste is how that map works, then fine, but if you're primarily expecting your players to shoot things, it's generally a good idea to give them more ammo than they need. Missed shots happen easily, and sometimes the RNG is unkind.

 

However, it's also no fun if a map is crawling with more ammo than you can carry. There's something to be said for forcing your players to use different weapon types rather than sticking with one gun for the whole map - it forces them to use a bit of strategy (saving those shotgun shells for the bigger enemies, say, by using up bullets on the smaller ones).

 

The exception, of course, is when ammo shortages are deliberate. Stick the player in a room early on with an Arch Vile and enough ammo, and they'll naturally try to kill it - but if you want them to run and come back later, starting them with virtually no ammunition will be a big hint that they need to move on.

 

Play the game through yourself, see whether you have enough ammunition to make it work, and add more if not. Add a little more on top to account for worse players. Weapons and ammunition in secret areas should be taken into account - is the level too difficult if you don't pick up any secrets? Is it too easy if you do? (A plasma rifle and stash of ammo in a closet somewhere can make a tough map into a complete pushover...)

 

When you're happy that it plays okay for you, get some other people to try it. They'll usually struggle a lot more, as they don't know all your sneaky tricks. Take their feedback on board. Don't change anything based on one opinion, but if several people report they aren't finding enough ammo then it's a good sign that you either need more or to make the stuff they aren't finding more obvious.

[baja blast rd.]

When thinking about ammo balance, it might seem natural to compare the total monster HP to the damage the player can do with the ammo provided -- but in most maps I find that a limited way of thinking.

 

There are many reasons, but the biggest one is that weapons have very different power levels and roles. If the threatening parts of the action are tuned around needing to use the power weapons (this is usually any of the RL, PR, or BFG, but it also can be SSG), and the player has lower-dps weapons (like chaingun and shotgun -- but depending on the action, it also can be SSG), you're generally allowed to provide a lot of the lower-tier ammo without really impacting how generous or stingy the map feels when it comes to the real damage dealers. 

 

So what many maps will do is give extra lower-grade ammo (shells and bullets in a map that is built around RL/PR) as insurance against running completely out of ammo, while the balance still revolves around the player's strongest weapons.

 

This works the other way too. A RL-centered map with lots of bulky mid-tier enemies that has too few rockets might come off as stingy even if it has practically limitless bullets (especially if it lacks SSG or its monsters are positioned in a way that makes them hard to SSG down). Flip that around and go surprisingly scarce on overall ammo but provide lots more rockets and it might feel generous.

[dasho]

I wonder if it would be worth running your WAD through The Populator and relevant configs to see what kind of ammo/weapon balance it pops out.

[Li'l devil]

Always give the player a lot of ammo. Don't be mean!

[MrHellstorm17]

2 minutes ago, Li'l devil said:

Always give the player a lot of ammo. Don't be mean!

I second that. Hate it, when the map basically forces you to Tyson

[camper]

Zombiemans and shotgunners are also a source of ammo.

Spoiler

I really regret that there are no charging stations for the plasmarifle.

 

[Vosolokoviteh]

Good question, it depends on the number of enemies on the map, if the map is full of meaningless enemies (slaughtermap) it is normal to give the player a lot of ammunition.

If it is a map with few enemies like Hell Keep, it would be normal to make them take advantage of the berserk, it is even possible to make maps that do not require any ammunition and are pure berserk.

[EraserheadBaby]

I like to give a berserk and chainsaw early and choke the ammo until about halfway through a level.  Then I open up the enemy count, variety, and ammo availability.

 

But as everyone is saying, it depends on the experience you want to make.

[EraserheadBaby]

3 hours ago, dasho said:

I wonder if it would be worth running your WAD through The Populator and relevant configs to see what kind of ammo/weapon balance it pops out.

you are a wealth of useful information.

[Scypek2]

I'd like to mention that giving roughly the same amount of each ammo pickup may seem like the most natural option, but in practice a box of shells lasts way longer and kills more stuff than a box of bullets, so it's pretty common for maps to end up with way too many shells (also because shotgunners are a very fun enemy to use...) and a deficit of bullets and rockets unless you make an effort to avoid it.

[RDETalus]

I only give the player enough shells and bullets to complete the map with maybe only 10% extra unused ammo remaining. I balance shells and bullets against each other so the player cannot use shotgun or chain gun for the entire map. Usually a 50/50 split so the player has to use both weapons equally. Finally, I put small amounts of cell and rocket ammo in the map secrets as a treat and extra insurance against the player completely running out.

So the way the map works out, you can complete it with only shotgun / chain gun but it's going to be really tight. If you find a few secrets, you will be able to use your plasma / rocket and get more breathing room.

Edited April 23 by RDETalus

[Naarok0fkor]

I really enjoy placing lots of ammo to counter loads of monsters. You can easily run out of health before you run out of ammo...

[Homer_hardware]

19 hours ago, dasho said:

I wonder if it would be worth running your WAD through The Populator and relevant configs to see what kind of ammo/weapon balance it pops out.

What does The Populator do?

[VICE]

10 minutes ago, Homer_hardware said:

What does The Populator do?

It imports monsters from other maps to stimulate your failing economy.

Edited April 23 by VICE