Is it just me who dislikes Spectres?

[Stabbey]

 

Way too many people just throw specters into brightly lit maps. That's almost always pointless. Keep them in the dark where they belong. Anyone who complains about spectres in dark rooms is usually whining and needs to learn how to deal. It's part of the challenge.

 

2 hours ago, Xaser said:

Spectres as-is are pretty interesting, but IMO they only work "by accident". Sounds weird, but lemme explain.

 

Pinkies are a flawed monster in hindsight, since you can just back up a couple of inches when they start to bite and you'll take no damage. They're really only a threat if you let them surround you or box you into a corner, and even then you can be like goku and avoid damage anyway. They really only work if you mix in other dangerous peeps that deal the actual damage, with the pinkies themselves serving as a sort of "space denier" that restricts player movement. Bit of a self plug, but MAP28 of MAYhem 2020 ("The Scar") shows this technique off in its first big fight. They're certainly not useless, but they're pretty bad at main role you'd think they would fill (i.e. "get too close and take damage").

 

Spectres are much more interesting, though -- since they're hard to see in dark areas, they can sneak up on the player to great effect. That said, the player always has a chance to back up if they hear the bite sound or realize they've hit an ""invisible wall"" in time -- i.e. the pinky's biggest weakness is one of the spectres' biggest strengths; it provides the player a reliable method of defense. If you "fix" the pinky by making them attack faster, or charge forward when attacking, or other techniques to make their bite more potent, then spectres suddenly become way too annoying since you can't avoid damage unless you're lucky enough to see them first. You'd basically have to make their attack different than the pinky... which isn't too hard to do, just not very intuitive. ;)

 

I used them in a dark maze section of my "More Tricks and Traps than you Require" map (there was a little strip of light at floor level so they could be seen if you paid attention), bringing them in with silent teleporters so that the player didn't realize they were there until hearing growls around. They were okay, but it was the return trip where they really shone.
 

Spoiler

 

When a bunch of Arch-Viles got dumped into the maze as well. The AV's wouldn't have been nearly as threatening on their own without the Spectres to block the shots and block the player in, nor would Demons have worked the same way because you could see and dodge them better.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 19 by Stabbey

[Li'l devil]

Spectres are okay when you can see them.

[Yousuf Anik]

I remember the first time I played Doom 2 and entered the map 03 on ITYTD difficulty, I rocketed one Spectre too near and was instantly killed lol :D well, they surely are brilliantly designed and amazing in Doom.

[Colusio]

You need ray tracing for translucency. Translucent  spectres would be very very cool. They have the same size, attack, movement and sounds as the pinky's but they are transparent and hollow.   A striking example of convergent evolution in hell 's bestiary, maybe the  children  of a invisible monster that dies just before the doom guy enters.

[Maximum Matt]

6 hours ago, Somniac said:

The last room in E1M5, where they first appear, especially if you don't get the Light Amplification Visor. It was and arguably still is an iconic moment.

They first show up in E1M3, on UV.... is that their first appearance on HMP?? I may have to go and do some comparisonizing...

5 hours ago, Jayextee said:

and it's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

Kinda off topic, but I always hated this particular expression... who the HELL puts fish in goddamn kettles?!?!!?

***

But yeah, I always think back to when I first got into Doom, learning about the enemies, and was like "okay, the demon doesn't have projectiles, just don't get too close to them and you'll be fine...." and then you find out "yeah but some of them are INVISIBLE" and it's like "awwww shiiiieeeet...."  The perfect counter to the argument that they're not as dangerous, especially when you factor in how DARK the game is...

And I also gotta shout-out the back yard of The Citadel.  Always cool to shoot like fifty of them and get the nice fuzzy carpet effect

[erzboesewicht]

Spectres are an excellent "rocket launcher denier". Throw a rocket launcher in a room and once the player picks it up warp spectres in to protect some more dangerous foes. The player has then got the task to herd them or to do more exact shoots to be able that juicy weapon. Basically, it helps to force the player to concentrate and not shoot around aimlessly :) This works quite well even in a brightly lit room because they can be overseen quite easily, above all if the room has details like pillars, rocks or torches where they can hide temporarily.

Edited May 19 by erzboesewicht

[Lila Feuer]

4 hours ago, Li'l devil said:

Spectres are okay when you can see them.

Those are called Pinkies Koakuma.

Edited May 19 by Lila Feuer

[Wahrnehmungskrieg]

3 hours ago, Maximum Matt said:

[...] who the HELL puts fish in goddamn kettles?!?!!? [...]

In Twin Peaks it happens sometimes.

 

Back on topic I've really liked the visuals that spectres (and you under invis) possess; that shimmering is a real contrast to anything else in the game.

 

One fight with spectres I've liked quite is SoD's map14 bfg secret, which is full of spectres in a room that's pitch black excepting a single wall of white lights. Facing the wall the spectres are plainly visible, but in every other direction the spectres are only sensed through touch, giving them the effects that Xaser mentioned earlier. It's not a difficult fight at all, but as a secret it contrasts very nicely with the rest of the level.

[Amaruψ]

10 hours ago, Devalaous said:

 

It would have been neat if the PS1 version's 'Spectre flag' was in the PC version the whole time, although im not sure how PC-style would have done nightmare flag visuals. Still, Spectre and Nightmare status just being the same flag was neat, ANYTHING could be a spectre or a nightmare spectre

 

To an extent, I'm glad that it isn't. Given how the "difficulty" of Doom's maps comes from revenant vomit most of the time, it'll be super annoying to have them invisible on top of it.

[Somniac]

5 hours ago, Maximum Matt said:

They first show up in E1M3, on UV.... is that their first appearance on HMP?? I may have to go and do some comparisonizing...

 

You're right, they do show up in E1M3 (2 of them) on UV, and theres a single one in E1M4 on all skills. E1M5 is the first time they appear in larger numbers which is probably why I thought of that :p

[fruity lerlups]

play Rush Map12 and you'll discover how evil they are, better yet play Holy Hell.. my god they are used so sadistically!

[Devalaous]

3 hours ago, Amaruψ said:

 

To an extent, I'm glad that it isn't. Given how the "difficulty" of Doom's maps comes from revenant vomit most of the time, it'll be super annoying to have them invisible on top of it.

 

Now someone has to make a mapset based on this, just to annoy you ;D

 

I'd take spectre revenants over stealth revenants anyday tbh

[vanilla_d00m]

They don’t bother me where I don’t want it in the game, when I first saw them I just played the game and didn’t give it any thought.  The pain elementals and lost souls still irritate me a little bit to this day though.  I also felt the revenant seemed a little rushed and just a filler demon but over time accepted the game for what it is (DOOM II)

Edited May 19 by vanilla_d00m

[TheHambourgeois]

OP you should see the sprectre pain elementals i made that spit spectre lost souls

[idbeholdME]

Onr of the best monsters with fast monsters on. In dark areas, sound becomes extremely important. Without fast monsters however, they are entirely pointless, same as regular Demons.

 

The invisibility effect is also next level for its time. Not just simple translucency  which is usually just visible anyway, but an effect nearly invisible in the dark and useless in the light.

 

Whoever is responsible for the fuzz effect is a genius. Best Spectre use I've ever seen was in 1Monster WAD, map 15.

Edited May 19 by idbeholdME

[Critter with Rabies]

In retrospect, i admit this a pretty crappy take.

 

Spectres are fine, i wouldn't say they're the best but they're ok. Plus without them, we probably wouldn't have stuff like translucency and what not.

 

So yeah, i'm sorry Spectres :(

 

 

[Toxisploder]

I don't find spectres much more difficult to deal with than regular demons, even in darkish rooms. The fuzz effect stands out pretty obviously against textures, unless one plays with very low resolution or has a poorly-calibrated monitor. I play cautiously, and most of the time spot them before they get to take a bite out of me.

[Colusio]

2 hours ago, idbeholdME said:

Onr of the best monsters with fast monsters on. In dark areas, sound becomes extremely important. Without fast monsters however, they are entirely pointless, same as regular Demons.

 

 

I feel that the SSG did help with making them pointless except the special use cases mentioned in this tread. I totally agree with fast making them so much better.

[Maximum Matt]

And let's not forget in the IWADs when they put spectres right in front of destination teleporters, like in E4M3 and Tricks 'N Traps

[InfinitePossiblities]

On 5/18/2024 at 2:51 PM, Lucius Wooding said:

Could be worse. You could have, uh... Invisible hurtfloors that follow you around the map like the liquid Terminator?

Sounds like someone better make this.

[Astar]

Nightmare pinkies are better

[Zerofuchs]

I don't really consider them as a separate enemy from the Pinky, since they're just camouflaged variants with no alteration in behaviour or stats. 

Much like their brighter coloured cousin, their primary purpose is essentially that of a meat wall, but it's easy to overuse them in a way that makes fights a slog.

 

From a personal perspective, assuming a "normal" map where a player is largely going to be using bullet weapons or fists to handle them, more than about a dozen in a single encounter can get tedious, particularly in a labyrinth.

 

If we're talking more slaughtery type of scenarios, that's down to how many BFG balls or rockets you want to soak up before the player gets to the juicy centre of the monster blobs.

[idbeholdME]

5 hours ago, Zerofuchs said:

Much like their brighter coloured cousin, their primary purpose is essentially that of a meat wall,

Might have been the intended purpose, but it's not even that in practice. It's a monster that is actually beneficial to the player, as they protect you from projectiles from actually dangerous enemies and you can deal with any number of them by backing into a corner, pulling out a chainsaw, putting a weight on the fire button and taking a nap.

 

With fast however, if you want to use that strategy, it's going to cost you Cells, as Plasma is the only thing with enough rate of fire to reliably painlock fast pinkies.

[Obsidian Plague]

"We ran out of ideas for enemies, here's a pinky but invisible"

...what was stopping them from just making a new unique enemy?

[Donowa]

2 minutes ago, Obsidian Plague said:

"We ran out of ideas for enemies, here's a pinky but invisible"

...what was stopping them from just making a new unique enemy?

gregor punchatz's schedule i guess, the pinky and other hand-drawn doom monsters are mostly just elaborate edits of the pre-existing monster sprites (imp from marines, pinky from baron) and that can only bring you so far when you have a deadline and are working in 1993 a.d.

[Craneo]

I like them BECAUSE of their usage in dark areas 😈

[Gifty]

Spectres are a monster that were able to sneak up on players a lot better in the days of 320x200 resolution, but on modern displays just look kind of silly unless they're totally shrouded in darkness. That's why I'm glad modern source ports like Gzdoom allow you to use alternate fuzz effects to make them hide a little better (and just look cooler) at higher resolutions.

Edited May 21 by Gifty

[Donowa]

spectres work a lot better when you have that faux-refraction effect that some ports let you enable (i think nugget doom added support for it in the latest update)

the darkening is what ruins them imo

[Arsinikk]

I only dislike Spectres because sourceports often render them incorrectly (often times making them harder to see on higher resolutions - especially on 1440p and up). When playing Doom in actual DOS, Spectres work as they should, being slightly obscured but still visible in light areas, while sometimes seemingly invisible in dark areas.

 

It's because of this inconsistency between sourceports, that as a mapper it's hard to use them... As for some players they are tricky to see, while for others they can be essentially invisible. I do like the overall concept of a semi-invisible enemy though. I just wish they were visually consistent per sourceport.

[Doom-X-Machina]

I have no hate toward my dear beloved little darklurker Spectre...

I actually really like how they render in Brutal Doom actually... with glowing eyes...