Most Hated Design Tropes in Wads?

[Zerofuchs]

Make the map(s) that you enjoy first.

Then take in feedback and make adjustments. 

 

In 99% of cases, if you just make something you personally like, at least a couple others should dig it too. As long as there's a reasonable degree of sincerity involved in creating it. Heck, even a shitpost can be good stuff if you're dedicated enough to the joke. 

 

Least that's the theory I'm going with for my maps lol. But yea, don't seek to avoid the distaste of others - seek your own flavour and revel in it. You can't please everyone.

[Async Unicorn]

I don't like timed / archvile jump secrets and when I don't have ability to explore the map when I reach the exit.

Edited May 21 by Async Unicorn

[Firedust]

I hate ketchup.

[Budoka]

13 hours ago, Acid-Seltzer said:

There are? Do you know of any notable ones? I'd love to see what they're doing.

Play through Mock 2: The Speed of Stupid and/or Experiencing Nirvana to get a mere glimpse at how late you are to that party... or, to go even lower, anything by Doomguy2000. Takeaway is, there's just no point.

[DoomGappy]

Ammo restriction has made me give up on wads that I was completely enjoying otherwise, but that's a personal pet peeve. It makes me almost angry for some reason. 

[Tiramisu]

I thought about this earlier today and I actually had a bit of a hard time coming up with anything - most of the (few) things that actively annoy me in a map (such as overly spacious areas, inconsistent switches or being 100% linear) are better described as either flaws or personal preferences, rather than "tropes".

 

But I think I finally have something here - namely, I don't like it when a map has you collect a key, and then promptly teleports you right in front of where you need to use the key. Most will agree that it's no substitute for a well-designed loop, but I personally would even prefer backtracking over it - it just feels too convenient and video game-y, to the point where it takes me out of the map, so to speak.

Edited May 21 by Tiramisu

[bofu]

MIDIs that get YouTube playthroughs copyright claimed.

[Li'l devil]

1 hour ago, bofu said:

MIDIs that get YouTube playthroughs copyright claimed.

I once put a midi like that on my map, because I had no idea this kind of thing was even possible. I guess it's a testament to how true to the original song that midi was.

[bofu]

Just now, Li'l devil said:

I once put a midi like that on my map, because I had no idea this kind of thing was even possible. I guess it's a testament to how true to the original song that midi was.

I think old wads get a pass, but people really shouldn't do it these days just out of courtesy unless they have something very specific in mind (where that MIDI absolutely is integral to the experience and not just chosen out of personal taste, like Italo Doom having a very specific theme that made its MIDI selection a core part of its identity). There are really good publicly available alternatives these days.

[fruity lerlups]

hot starts where your objective is to just run around like a headless chicken until you can find something to deal with them but the whole map turns out to be an ammunition starve so you're running around constantly stressed dealing with nonsense until it finally lets you kill everything, or any ammo scrum crap in general.. ahem scythe 2 map 23, map 26 and a lot of ribbiks nonsense

Edited May 22 by fruity lerlups
mispelled your because im dumb and gay

[Andromeda]

On 5/21/2024 at 9:37 PM, plums said:

@j4rio himself made this, which is basically unplayable for anyone who isn't j4rio

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/142519-my-first-map-please-be-nice-to-me-_/

I played this :) It's a really good level, but yeah pretty much impenetrable for the average Doomworld member.

 

On 5/22/2024 at 7:12 AM, fruity lerlups said:

hot starts where your objective is to just run around like a headless chicken until you can find something to deal with them but the whole map turns out to be an ammunition starve so you're running around constantly stressed dealing with nonsense until it finally lets you kill everything, or any ammo scrum crap in general.. ahem scythe 2 map 23, map 26 and a lot of ribbiks nonsense

Scythe 2 is one of Ribbiks' (and mine as well) favourite wads IIRC, so it checks out.

Edited May 23 by Andromeda

[Jayextee]

Okay, I got a serious answer.

Map starts, you're in a rotationally-symmetrical area that's just doors. Aside from maybe some coloured key markings they're all identical. Makes me really not wanna play through the map for some reason.

[fruity lerlups]

19 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

Scythe 2 is one of Ribbiks' (and mine as well) favourite wads IIRC, so it checks out.

Scythe 2 is honestly.. pretty damn amazing. I still havent finished it and its CBT is a bit too much for my tastes but when it lets you rip it feels fantastic, I think its gonna stick in my head for a while. After I finish it its gonna be my sisyphian mission to single segment UV max every level, even Death, it just calls to me, ominously. Ive gotten up to level 8 in Sunlust but im so close to finishing Scythe 2 its like.. taunting me, saying "you want to conquer me dont you", and I do, I hate that I do but like I cant die without conquering it, and im worried Sunlust and Speed of Doom will have the same effect on me, just make me feel like.. I havent experienced life and death until Ive single segment UV maxed every freaking level. Thank you Erik Alm, you are an angel and a devil, and youve got under my freaking skin.

[Lila Feuer]

1 hour ago, fruity lerlups said:

Scythe 2 is honestly.. pretty damn amazing. I still havent finished it and its CBT is a bit too much for my tastes but when it lets you rip it feels fantastic, I think its gonna stick in my head for a while. After I finish it its gonna be my sisyphian mission to single segment UV max every level, even Death, it just calls to me, ominously. Ive gotten up to level 8 in Sunlust but im so close to finishing Scythe 2 its like.. taunting me, saying "you want to conquer me dont you", and I do, I hate that I do but like I cant die without conquering it, and im worried Sunlust and Speed of Doom will have the same effect on me, just make me feel like.. I havent experienced life and death until Ive single segment UV maxed every freaking level. Thank you Erik Alm, you are an angel and a devil, and youve got under my freaking skin.

 

Scythe II is a genuinely good wad and I liked it a lot more than the first one, hopefully next time I'll be more prepared for the last five maps. It might also not hurt to do an HMP run for my second playthrough, if only to just get used to the layouts again. And yeah, Erik Alm really did just kick the entire community's ass and leave on that note lol. Shame about Scythe X...

Sunlust on UV will be psychotic if it's anything I've seen judging by decino's playthrough. HMP really is recommended for new players, believe me you are not getting a watered down experience lol. I almost didn't know if I could do God Machine's last couple of fights. UV probably isn't that much different by that point in the wad, but a lot of earlier fights will have surprise cyberdemons that weren't there before and two viles where there was one and so on.
 

I've heard Speed of Doom is pretty tough, haven't played it yet but certainly want to. Dunno if I should just gun for UV on that one for my first playthrough.

[Budoka]

5 hours ago, fruity lerlups said:

Scythe 2 is honestly.. pretty damn amazing. I still havent finished it and its CBT is a bit too much for my tastes but when it lets you rip it feels fantastic, I think its gonna stick in my head for a while. After I finish it its gonna be my sisyphian mission to single segment UV max every level, even Death, it just calls to me, ominously. Ive gotten up to level 8 in Sunlust but im so close to finishing Scythe 2 its like.. taunting me, saying "you want to conquer me dont you", and I do, I hate that I do but like I cant die without conquering it, and im worried Sunlust and Speed of Doom will have the same effect on me, just make me feel like.. I havent experienced life and death until Ive single segment UV maxed every freaking level. Thank you Erik Alm, you are an angel and a devil, and youve got under my freaking skin.

There's also Resurgence if you want more from where that came... I think it's even better than Speed of Doom.

[Acid-Seltzer]

18 hours ago, Lila Feuer said:

 

Scythe II is a genuinely good wad and I liked it a lot more than the first one, hopefully next time I'll be more prepared for the last five maps. It might also not hurt to do an HMP run for my second playthrough, if only to just get used to the layouts again. And yeah, Erik Alm really did just kick the entire community's ass and leave on that note lol. Shame about Scythe X...

Sunlust on UV will be psychotic if it's anything I've seen judging by decino's playthrough. HMP really is recommended for new players, believe me you are not getting a watered down experience lol. I almost didn't know if I could do God Machine's last couple of fights. UV probably isn't that much different by that point in the wad, but a lot of earlier fights will have surprise cyberdemons that weren't there before and two viles where there was one and so on.
 

I've heard Speed of Doom is pretty tough, haven't played it yet but certainly want to. Dunno if I should just gun for UV on that one for my first playthrough.

Kinda vindicating to hear other people haven't finished Scythe 2 either, I thought I just sucked. Just looked up which level I stopped at and was getting increasingly embarrassed thinking it must have been map 28 or something and realizing it was map 24, didn't even get to hell.

[rita remton]

umm...

• items in the middle of pathways, especially narrow hallways. my pet peeve. would be much better if the items were put beside walls in small alcoves/platforms or on daises/tables at the end of the room. this provides an option for the player to pickup the items only when the player wants to.
• maps containing [icon of sin] or any monster spawners. i would try to play as best as i could though, but with much less enthusiasm.
• maps with bad map flow. for example, getting a key from the west side of the map, but player has to backtrack to the door the key opens on the east side of the map 5000 map units away through a complex labyrinth of corridors. would be much better if the map has a looping layout to minimise such backtracking.
• maps that are just too dark to see. imo, it would be much better for the map to have light sources such as torches, cracks in ceiling that see the sky for god rays effects, etc, all spaced accordingly to dimly illuminate the place. would look nicer too.
• maps with difficult puzzles or no monsters at all. bluntly put, i don't want to be sherlock holmes or need to know aerospace engineering when playing doom, just a simple marine that blasts away monsters :P

tq.

Edited May 24 by rita remton
better wordings for clearer explanation

[yakfak]

my pet hates are the opposite of the above five points :3 no offense

looping layouts drive me mad, that's quake stuff, make me limp back home

[rita remton]

2 hours ago, yakfak said:

my pet hates are the opposite of the above five points :3 no offense

 

lol! no offense taken :) it's a good thing that everyone has their own preference. otherwise, fan-made doom maps would be very bland with just samey stuff.

[Reisal]

Hummm...

 

• Lots of hitscanners with little or no cover to hide from.
• Overuse of non-linearity. I get it that it's nice to have multiple paths but too much non-linearity can lead to getting lost or going in circles.
• Ammo/health starvation and overreliance on monster infighting.
• Excessive use of Arch-viles throughout the map.
• Forgetting to remove secret tag on room stairs due to setting it before making the steps.
• Cramped Cyberdemon fights.
• Liberal use of Chaingunner and/or Revenant snipers from 500+ units away.
• Excessive platforming, be it ZDoom or non-ZDoom style.
• Corridors too thin to dodge enemy projectiles.
• Maps with far too many mid and upper tier enemies in groups without adequate weaponry.
• Mega-slaughterwads. I do love myself slaughtermaps but there is a point when it becomes a slog to kill 20+ Hell Knights multiple times, such as Holy Hell.

Edited May 24 by Reisal

[ebrl]

I hate it when authors make the wad they think players want to play instead of making the wad they want to make

[octosquidfunni]

Switches that turn off after a short period of time where you can't see what they're activating.

I hate having to watch switches for a couple seconds after I press them just in case they turn off.

[NaliSeed]

Huge-ass maps with hundreds and hundreds of enemies, i. e. , slaughter maps. Unfortunately, we seem to be getting tons of those lately and less and less classic style maps. 

 

Also, using music from games like Castlevania, Megaman, Final Fantasy, etc. Always annoyed me to no end. 

Edited May 29 by NaliSeed

[WASFDDDDD]

I don't really have any pet peeves, but I do have some advice that works for me:

 

If you're mapping with an advanced source port, try to limit the amount of really long flights of stairs you have in your map, and instead use slopes. Stairs tend to make Doomguy's movement go all floaty, what with how he's technically airborne half the time while moving on them. This doesn't happen with slopes, so they're much better to fight on, or to do anything on really

[Celestin]

Maps that put the only rocket launcher/plasma/BFG in a secret (especially if it's an obscure one), but place a ton of ammo for it throughout the whole map. Have fun grinding stuff with SSG while having a full stack of rockets and no way to use them.

[suzerduzer]

On 5/21/2024 at 1:38 PM, Grain of Salt said:

It's a shame the annotations on that video are gone (forever?) now.

Not to derail this awesome thread but there's a great browser add-on that restores annotations on Youtube videos that once had them (including this one). I believe annotations are actually still accessible on older videos, they're just not viewable by default.

This map is fairly interesting btw, must have been a bitch to route though.

Edited June 10 by suzerduzer

[Horus]

Ultimately people are going to make the kind of maps that they enjoy, not something different to please other people. With this game being around for 30 years it's not surprising that a lot of people's skills have risen to a very high level and they like to make hard maps. That being said, there are still plenty of easier maps and mapsets out there, and even the harder ones often have difficulty settings implemented. No shame in playing on ITYTD or HNTR.

[Shepardus]

Funny how you should mention Junkfood and then rant about how slaughtermaps turn away new players from the game, because many of those maps were made by people who only picked up Doom within the last couple years.

 

7 hours ago, suzerduzer said:

Not to derail this awesome thread but there's a great browser add-on that restores annotations on Youtube videos that once had them (including this one). I believe annotations are actually still accessible on older videos, they're just not viewable by default.

This map is fairly interesting btw, must have been a bitch to route though.

Awesome, I've wanted to see the annotations for that run! Didn't know this existed - even works on my own videos where I thought the annotations had been long lost!

Edited June 10 by Shepardus

[Jayextee]

There's no market at all, since people aren't paying for mere WADs; and nor should they.

[Kinetic]

sorry for derailing the argument with a response to the topic, i wrote this like 8 hrs ago and forgot to post it.

 

For the record hate is absolutely too strong of a word for the below words, "not a big fan of" works better for me imo.

 

Not a big fan of tiny shoot/button switch secrets in huge maps where the sheer surface area of all the walls in the map just make trying to explore every nook and cranny and corner for a switch becomes extremely exhausting, since there isn't any tell, the secret is just something being really small and hard to find. The smaller the swtich/the bigger the map the more my eyebrow raises.

 

Not a big fan of singular health bonus/armor bonus reward secrets. These can be both given in secrets and nonsecret secrets, and sometimes it is given after a long and arduous secret hunt or after some platforming section or some visual treat. Sometimes it is used for comedic effect, sometimes it is used as a simple communication method from mapper to player that the secret has ended. But if given the option of leaving it in vs. leaving it out, I will always leave it out. The singular bonus always comes off as direct communication with a player from the mapper since it's virtually always useless, and the trope has been established a long time ago as a silly "here is your reward for your exploration". I've gotten over the use of it as a joke a long time ago, and as far as being communication that the secret has ended, I find it a bit harmful to a map's atmosphere, unless the atmosphere is silly/shitposty.