WADs focused on 100% item completion

[SPG]

I find it fascinating that, out of the end-of-level stats that get attention (kills, secrets, items, time) that items seem to be ignored pretty hard. This is understandable to a certain extent, as it seems common for WADs not to be designed with that focus in mind, so that got me wondering...

Are there any WADs out there that are not just possible to obtain 100% of the items, but designed with that focus in mind?

If so, please post about them and give the category some love! If not, that's a shame. Just imagine using armor bonuses only as the equivalent of challenge coins in a Mario game, placed in an area that's very out in the open and not a puzzle or secret to get into -- instead, it's a platforming challenge, or guarded by a particularly tricky fight, or requires quick reflexes to get.

[LegendaryEevee]

@SPG What makes this so difficult for me is I can never tell what is marked as an item.  I remember during my Walkthrough Guide of E1M5 I believe it was the normal 100 Armor did not count toward the item% but the 200 Mega Armor did it was at that moment I decided to leave Items out of my 100% Walkthrough's i've been doing.  I wish there was a better way of it letting you know what was essential otherwise I supposed just pick up everything possible in every level?
 

To add to your question.  The best version of mandatory 100% items I've ever seen has been MyHouse.pk3.  Literally the only way you can get the "Good" Ending is finding all 16 collectibles scattered throughout all versions of every world.  It would be nice to have a DooM Map that like somehow soft locks you from progressing through the level till a certain amount of items is achieved or maybe instead of items have something different that's tracked.  I love to see peoples ideas on how we can improve the items.  Because if it's not MyHouse.pk3 I flat out ignore it.

Edited May 20 by LegendaryEevee

[DiavoJinx]

In your example (armor helmets strewn about for a collect-a-thon), that sounds like the end level screen Items % stat would be harking back to its origin:

Wolfenstein 3-D's end level stat Treasure.

The downside here for Doom is that multiple items count for the Items stat, including health kits (even if you are at 100+% health, you still need to think to walk over them to get credit).

Also reminds me of ROTT's collectable ankhs (IIRC 100 give you a free life?). Those felt more rooted in Wolf 3-D's treasures.

 

Another way to enforce a design for getting all items is an obscure hunt -- such as placing one Invulnerability Sphere (anything unique & obvious) per level behind a well-hidden secret closet.

 

I don't know of any maps myself to share.

[DiavoJinx]

2 minutes ago, LegendaryEevee said:

It would be nice to have a DooM Map that like somehow soft locks you from progressing through the level till a certain amount of items is achieved or maybe instead of items have something different that's tracked.  I love to see peoples ideas on how we can improve the items.

Perhaps something inspired by Hexen?  Hexen has many puzzles that are "collect X# of mcguffins".

[LegendaryEevee]

@DiavoJinx @SPG Ohh.  I know of one.  I believe it's Fly where eagles dare map of Ancient Aliens.  You are shown a Supersphere way high on a ledge and have to spend a lot of trial and error figuring out how to get to it as it's not as simple as making a jump or climbing I think there was some elevator schenanigans to access it.

[slowfade]

Interesting. I have never thought of this, nor have I seen such wads. Quite likely some maps exists as a gimmick within a wad but I think the idea has potential.

[DiavoJinx]

Now my wheels are turning with this!

 

Yes, use armor helmets as the main pick-up items...

Have multiple sections of the map where you can't open the door to the next section without getting every armor helmet in that section first (2 scripts? One that increments a variable like "AHelm" on every one's pickup, and another script on the door that checks for the value of AHelm before).

Then have some fun, tight hallways that just have armor helmets in a row. Have a couple of secret closets with a cache of them + ammo.
Respawning Items must be set to off!  Can that be prevent from being enabled via a Start script?

[Noiser]

Just now, DiavoJinx said:

Have multiple sections of the map where you can't open the door to the next section without getting every armor helmet in that section first (2 scripts? One that increments a variable like "AHelm" on every one's pickup, and another script on the door that checks for the value of AHelm before).

That's not possible on vanilla or the majority of ports, as far as I know

[Legatron17]

2 hours ago, SPG said:

Are there any WADs out there that are not just possible to obtain 100% of the items, but designed with that focus in mind?

JUMPWAD

[Ravendesk]

Not Even Remotely Fair designed with idea of getting 100% items to be an additional challenge, so the item placements are very deliberate.

And also Jumpwad, yes. Jumpwad even has a speedrunning exception: getting 100% items is a requirement for a UV-MAX run in dsdarchive.

Edited May 20 by Ravendesk

[DiavoJinx]

1 hour ago, Noiser said:

That's not possible on vanilla or the majority of ports, as far as I know

Oh dear.

I use GZDoom and only have use a modicum on ACS scripting.  Seems like there could be a way. =)

[magicsofa]

2 hours ago, DiavoJinx said:

The downside here for Doom is that multiple items count for the Items stat, including health kits (even if you are at 100+% health, you still need to think to walk over them to get credit).

 

Medkits do not count. The items that do count are:

 

Armor bonus

Berserk

Computer area map

Health bonus

Invulnerability

Light amplification visor

Megasphere

Partial invisibility

Supercharge

 

Obviously the intention was to only count special items that the player can always collect. The Area Map is broken because you can only collect one, but if there is more than one in the level then it it still counted and you can never get 100%. 

[DiavoJinx]

1 minute ago, magicsofa said:

 

Medkits do not count. The items that do count are:

 

Armor bonus

Berserk

Computer area map

Health bonus

Invulnerability

Light amplification visor

Megasphere

Partial invisibility

Supercharge

 

Obviously the intention was to only count special items that the player can always collect. The Area Map is broken because you can only collect one, but if there is more than one in the level then it it still counted and you can never get 100%. 

Ah good, that makes perfect sense!

[Shepardus]

150 Line Massacre has secret golden skulls that count toward the item percentage.

[Arsinikk]

19 minutes ago, Shepardus said:

150 Line Massacre has secret golden skulls that count toward the item percentage.

I like how I forgot about this, even though it's partly my project lol

[Arsinikk]

So while it's not required, 200 Line Christmas: Snowy Slaughter features gnomes that you must kill that turn into mushrooms that become pickup-able that are the only thing that counts towards the "item" percentage.

 

So the mini goal of the wad is to find/kill/collect the gnome in every map.

 

 

[Devalaous]

5 hours ago, LegendaryEevee said:

@SPG What makes this so difficult for me is I can never tell what is marked as an item.  I remember during my Walkthrough Guide of E1M5 I believe it was the normal 100 Armor did not count toward the item% but the 200 Mega Armor did it was at that moment I decided to leave Items out of my 100% Walkthrough's i've been doing.  I wish there was a better way of it letting you know what was essential otherwise I supposed just pick up everything possible in every level?
 

To add to your question.  The best version of mandatory 100% items I've ever seen has been MyHouse.pk3.  Literally the only way you can get the "Good" Ending is finding all 16 collectibles scattered throughout all versions of every world.  It would be nice to have a DooM Map that like somehow soft locks you from progressing through the level till a certain amount of items is achieved or maybe instead of items have something different that's tracked.  I love to see peoples ideas on how we can improve the items.  Because if it's not MyHouse.pk3 I flat out ignore it.

 

Mega-armour has never been part of the items count, as you cant pick one up at 200% armour. The general rule is that 'items' are better described as 'power-ups', they are either 'pickup on touch' hell artefacts (spheres, bonuses) or UAC tech thats either permanent (berserk, automap) or longlasting help (lightamp). Mundane things like armour, backpacks and radsuits are not counted as items, even though radsuits clearly follow the powerup formula (Because honestly, who is going to run around putting on all the radsuits?)

[LegendaryEevee]

14 hours ago, Devalaous said:

 

Mega-armour has never been part of the items count, as you cant pick one up at 200% armour. The general rule is that 'items' are better described as 'power-ups', they are either 'pickup on touch' hell artefacts (spheres, bonuses) or UAC tech thats either permanent (berserk, automap) or longlasting help (lightamp). Mundane things like armour, backpacks and radsuits are not counted as items, even though radsuits clearly follow the powerup formula (Because honestly, who is going to run around putting on all the radsuits?)

    Thank you for helping clarify this.  In all of the years of playing I really wasn't sure what items would trigger this since i started before the internet was a big things (back in our LAN party days).  This is what made me think Mega Armor in E1M5.  When i went over here I got the item count up and assumed it was the Mega Armor not even paying attention to the Armor Pickups in the same secret cubby hole.

 

So to help make this information more usable for people going forward I put together a small Cheat Sheet of WHAT COUNTS toward Item%'s so we have something quick and easy to glance at.  And with this see how we can better incorporate Items% into more viable gameplay scenarios instead of being misunderstood and ignored as it seems to go from what I witness.

 

[magicsofa]

I literally just posted that lol

[OnymynO]

I am also intrigued by this idea and wish item-collecting would get more love. I think the current "UV Max" speedrunning category should be renamed to "UV 100KS", and the "UV Max" label should actually be what it implies: MAX, as in everything, including items. I don't see why so many people consider it that much more tedious than killing monsters or tagging secrets; needing to collect items adds that much more to movement/route optimization. In any case, the label "UV Max" is a gross misnomer and should be changed; I will die on this hill.

 

On 5/20/2024 at 5:41 PM, Devalaous said:

Mega-armour has never been part of the items count, as you cant pick one up at 200% armour. The general rule is that 'items' are better described as 'power-ups', they are either 'pickup on touch' hell artefacts (spheres, bonuses) or UAC tech thats either permanent (berserk, automap) or longlasting help (lightamp). Mundane things like armour, backpacks and radsuits are not counted as items, even though radsuits clearly follow the powerup formula (Because honestly, who is going to run around putting on all the radsuits?)

 

I just like to call the tally-percent ones "Artifacts" while the others are "Powerups", even if those names are a bit arbitrary and don't make total sense: https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Thing_types#Artifact_items

 

(The rest being "Weapons", "Ammunition", and "Keys".)

 

23 hours ago, LegendaryEevee said:

 So to help make this information more usable for people going forward I put together a small Cheat Sheet of WHAT COUNTS toward Item%'s so we have something quick and easy to glance at.  And with this see how we can better incorporate Items% into more viable gameplay scenarios instead of being misunderstood and ignored as it seems to go from what I witness.

[table]

 

This information has been known forever and is easily looked up on the wiki and many other places. It is not that hard to remember nine out of eighteen things. Actually, it is only three things: Spheres(4), Bonuses(2), and Other(3).

 

I disagree with that table. Its use of colors and borders is unnecessary and distracting, plus all that negative space. And why is it a giant PNG? It is a text list of nine things, and perhaps a header. Why complicate it? This is fine:

 

On 5/20/2024 at 3:09 PM, magicsofa said:

Armor bonus

Berserk

Computer area map

Health bonus

Invulnerability

Light amplification visor

Megasphere

Partial invisibility

Supercharge

 

Or maybe something like this:

 

[LegendaryEevee]

2 hours ago, OnymynO said:

 

Or maybe something like this:

 

Perfect my friend.  Just threw something together here at work.  This is compact and perfect!  Love the visuals.

[Amaruψ]

 

I'd like to add that the auto-map is a bit of an anomaly when it comes to powerups. Unlike any other powerup in the game, you can't pick one up if you're already carrying one. This means if a map has more than one auto-map to pick up, you can't achieve 100% items. This is, unless you're playing cooperative (since each person can pick up individual auto-maps) or if you're using a source port such as the ZDoom derived ports that allow you to pick up more than one.

[Andromeda]

2 hours ago, OnymynO said:

I think the current "UV Max" speedrunning category should be renamed to "UV 100KS", and the "UV Max" label should actually be what it implies: MAX, as in everything, including items.

 

2 hours ago, OnymynO said:

I don't see why so many people consider it that much more tedious than killing monsters or tagging secrets; needing to collect items adds that much more to movement/route optimization.

While I agree with the latter point, the former is simply impossible at this point and would bring more problems than it would solve. With that said, there's always space for new speedrunning categories provided there's enough interest.

[magicsofa]

1 minute ago, Amaruψ said:

 

I'd like to add that the auto-map is a bit of an anomaly when it comes to powerups. Unlike any other powerup in the game, you can't pick one up if you're already carrying one. This means if a map has more than one auto-map to pick up, you can't achieve 100% items. This is, unless you're playing cooperative (since each person can pick up individual auto-maps) or if you're using a source port such as the ZDoom derived ports that allow you to pick up more than one.

 

Yeah, this is sort of an oversight on the developers, basically it seems that they never expected anyone to put more than one of these in a single level. Of course Peterson forgot about this and put two in Monster Condo, oops! And really there are a number of reasons why you might want to place more than one, for example if your map has some areas that you eventually get locked out of, you might want to give an additional opportunity to find the Area Map later on. Or, you might want to have one that is well hidden early in the level, but then another one that is easier to find but appears much later.

[Amaruψ]

2 hours ago, OnymynO said:

I don't see why so many people consider it that much more tedious than killing monsters or tagging secrets; needing to collect items adds that much more to movement/route optimization. In any case, the label "UV Max" is a gross misnomer and should be changed; I will die on this hill.

 

I think that the dislike for 100% items stems from the original games, since a lot of the original maps have haphazardly placed health and armor bonuses all over the maps. A map as extensive and twisting as Containment Area (E2M2) is a good example of this. Sure, a lot of the custom wads simply avoid this (or increase their value by placing multiple on top of each other), but 100% items have achieved some sort of the "don't place arrows in the map" kind of status.

 

Secrets are often hinted towards by different textured walls or an object pointing towards them. Enemies can simply roam around the map and make noise, making them easy to locate. Items? I don't think a lot of people will bother running halfway across the map to find that one useless health vial that they missed. 

 

While I do agree that UV Max is definitely a misnomer, changing the rules now will retroactively make all of the submitted demos invalid (unless, the rules wouldn't be applied retroactively, don't know.)

[JoeyKelastiof]

Interesting topic! I believe every mapper should make it so that you can get 100% in every category, even in items. Think of the poor completionists being frustrated out there :p .

[Noiser]

3 hours ago, Amaruψ said:

, but 100% items have achieved some sort of the "don't place arrows in the map" kind of status.

Which is quite dumb btw, because there's nothing wrong about arrows in maps. But of course, this is one of those "genius" quotes from Civvie who got repeated ad nauseum for some reason

[Amaruψ]

24 minutes ago, Noiser said:

Which is quite dumb btw, because there's nothing wrong about arrows in maps. But of course, this is one of those "genius" quotes from Civvie who got repeated ad nauseum for some reason

 

Yeah, exactly this.

[Pancrasio]

I definetely see using health bonuses and that kinda shit like coins in a Mario game... So the item count is for additional challenges that aren't hidden, like a tricky jump somewhere in plain view, and secrets... Well, for secret things.

Problem could be hiding items in secrets. You need 100% secrets to have 100% items... Maybe you could just use secrets for easter eggs and whatnot and leave all items out of them?

Interesting way of seeing it.

Edited May 23 by Pancrasio