Liminal spaces in doom, what even is it ?

[rafael2100]

In my constant daydreams, I always come up with ideas on what map I can do in ultimate doom builder, but they don't really last long because I tend to drown myself in ideas, and I subconsciously forget about some of them.

 

One day, I saw a video of Doctor4t that created a mod that simulated the poolrooms in minecraft, which I thought was really cool, and I wondered if you could do it in doom, and that idea never left my mind, for months. So I finally decided to do some doodles

So, short answer : yes you can, as shown in these pictures of what I made in doom builder (UDMF)

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

(These are doodles more than anything really, so there is still a lot more room for improvement, I do really enjoy the atmosphere on the fourth screenshot tho)

 

Long answer : it's more complicated. Doom is a 30 year old-ish game, and tons of children have created memories in this game, that includes me as well, which is perfect for liminal spaces. One wad that included, but is not limited to liminal spaces, became so popular it popped out of bubble of the doom community and went mainstream, you know and love it, it's myhouse.pk3.

Why am I telling you this ? Usually my personal projects are done by me, and me only, but if you click on the spoiler you see that...

Spoiler

 

...To entirely fill that space with a labyrinth of liminal pools all by myself would take too much time, and the guy who made myhouse.pk3 presumably went insane during its making.

Before I finish this post, I should explain what my plan is. As you can see in this picture, it's divided by 3, it follows the same exact route as the mod of doctor4t, one daylight and bright area (the first 3 pictures), one sunset and dark area (the fourth picture), and an underwater abyss area (no doodles yet :( )

 

 

I want to host a community project to make this a succesful mod, to gain time, but to also make it as high quality as we can, but considering that I have school for 2 more weeks, and then some mandatory stuff for 4 weeks, that means I won't be able to host it for 6 weeks, without considering what my parents plan for the summer holidays. What i'm sure is that I will host it this summer.

What do you think ?

[Lizardcommando]

I have seen some attempts at liminal space style maps but I always really liked the clean white liminal pool rooms, similar to what you have going on in your screenshots and in this video. If you do end up hosting a liminal space Doom project, I'd be willing to join. There's a thread that gives you guideline in what it takes to host a Community Project so take a look at that if you are really serious about hosting one.

[Maximum Matt]

Poolroom Doom.  Get on that

[Tetzlaff]

I think many classic Doom levels have an inherent liminal spaces quality to them: they often resemble human-made structures, but are now devoid of human life, and they all are places of transition.

[LegendaryEevee]

@rafael2100 I love Liminal Spaces! They can absolutely capture a spooky atmosphere.  Especially if you add in the Playstation Final Doom / DooM 64 Ambient Sounds and Background noises instead of the rock / upbeat MIDI tracks.  Here would be some amazing Liminal Space ideas with Pictures.

 

1.  Hotel (which could include your pool idea)

 

2.  Library (they have always freaked me out getting stuck in a Maze like Library.  DooM has flirted with the idea but never went full Liminal that I've seen where you get lost in one).

 

3.  Hospitals (One you rarely see in DooM.  Liminal Spaces already give you a feeling of dread.  Getting lost in a hellacious hospital on top can be nightmare fuel).

 

IF YOU REALLY WANT TO GO FULL TERROR.  Have like one really strong enemy like a Cyberdemon be the only thing in the map with barrely enough Ammo to take it out and have it's wake up silenced so you don't know it's awake as it chases you throughout the map.  Full Amnesia style run for your life until you scrounge up enough ammo to deal with it!

 

Edited May 21 by LegendaryEevee

[Trigsy]

10 minutes ago, Tetzlaff said:

I think many classic Doom levels have an inherent liminal spaces quality to them: they often resemble human-made structures, but are now devoid of human life, and they all are places of transition.

Not even just devoid of human life. They're abstract mazes defined by various metrics of slaughter.

[Tetzlaff]

28 minutes ago, Trigsy said:

Not even just devoid of human life. They're abstract mazes defined by various metrics of slaughter.

 

They are not deliberately abstract. The level names most of the time suggest some purpose and sometimes the structures vaguely resonate with that. That vagueness is also something you often experience in liminal spaces.

[Trigsy]

1 hour ago, Tetzlaff said:

 

They are not deliberately abstract. The level names most of the time suggest some purpose and sometimes the structures vaguely resonate with that. That vagueness is also something you often experience in liminal spaces.

To be clear, I agree with you that old Doom levels have an inherent quality of liminal space to them. They're literally designed to be passed through, and I find that the vagueness of a real-world liminal space can make something concrete feel abstract. I can't help but think of MYHOUSE.WAD and the use of liminal spaces there.

[rafael2100]

2 hours ago, LegendaryEevee said:

@rafael2100 I love Liminal Spaces! They can absolutely capture a spooky atmosphere.  Especially if you add in the Playstation Final Doom / DooM 64 Ambient Sounds and Background noises instead of the rock / upbeat MIDI tracks.  Here would be some amazing Liminal Space ideas with Pictures.

 

1.  Hotel (which could include your pool idea)

 

2.  Library (they have always freaked me out getting stuck in a Maze like Library.  DooM has flirted with the idea but never went full Liminal that I've seen where you get lost in one).

 

3.  Hospitals (One you rarely see in DooM.  Liminal Spaces already give you a feeling of dread.  Getting lost in a hellacious hospital on top can be nightmare fuel).

 

IF YOU REALLY WANT TO GO FULL TERROR.  Have like one really strong enemy like a Cyberdemon be the only thing in the map with barrely enough Ammo to take it out and have it's wake up silenced so you don't know it's awake as it chases you throughout the map.  Full Amnesia style run for your life until you scrounge up enough ammo to deal with it!

 

 

My project is centered around the poolrooms, so i won't focus on the other liminal concepts such as abandoned hospitals, I was intrigued with the library of babel, so I made something in 10 minutes, there's only one bookshelf texture so I can't really add much detail, I still think it looks pretty nice otherwise.

 

Spoiler

I also think that adding a cyberdemon in the middle of a liminal space that chases you around, while sounding like a pretty neat idea, is intrusive to the unique atmosphere of a liminal space. It's still creepy and horrifying, sure, but it's not liminal, and not what i'm looking for. Though I will make sure to add custom sound effects, you can count me on that

 

2 hours ago, Trigsy said:

Not even just devoid of human life. They're abstract mazes defined by various metrics of slaughter.

 

1 hour ago, Tetzlaff said:

 

They are not deliberately abstract. The level names most of the time suggest some purpose and sometimes the structures vaguely resonate with that. That vagueness is also something you often experience in liminal spaces.

 

Most of the time, the layout of the doom maps just don't make sense (certainly not glaring at doom II's city levels), and while some levels do have a semblance of logic in their layout (like idk, the mines ?), they're the exception, not the rule, and I certainly can't blame id for that. But yeah that vagueness does really accentuate that unique atmosphere.

 

But one thing i've not seen talked about, was that this unique atmosphere was also present in my early levels (it's my personal experience, so it may be completely different for you). There's a transition where the builder starts learning about the very basics of doom builder such as texturing and such, before learning the philosophy of making good doom wads, and that is what I think was best showcased on my first ever project on my first ever map, on my second room.

 

There's just something so unique about the things you build during that period of time, I vividly remember after taking a good look at the room I just built that something felt off..., and I think that this was the feeling of liminality. Right now the picture below shows the final version of it, but back then, it was much darker, less detailled and polished

That actually taught to pay more attention to detail and lighting when making a room, though I'm pretty sure that's where my perfectionism came from.

 

To finish this off, here's some more doodle of the concept i'm trying to convey

[LegendaryEevee]

33 minutes ago, rafael2100 said:

there's only one bookshelf texture so I can't really add much detail, I still think it looks pretty nice otherwise.

 

  Hide contents



  That actually taught to pay more attention to detail and lighting when making a room, though I'm pretty sure that's where my perfectionism came from.

 

To finish this off, here's some more doodle of the concept i'm trying to convey

Absolutely my friend (The Library concept looks amazing love how you can add the 3D effect by layering the textures!

 

I tutored college kids in 3D Graphic Design (SolidWorks / AutoCAD) for years, work as an Engineer for several that's why level detail is so important to me.  If you ever see my walkthrough's on my youtube page I don't focus on speed but on teaching and analyzing each map to appreciate the work and artistry in each map.  I want to get lost in them not be led through them on a leash.

 

Your pool concept looks outstanding my friend I feel this is a great concept and would love to playtest and make a promotional trailer for your work once you get some things thrown together.  Just shoot me a message and I'll take a look at as little or however much you'd like.  I love the premise and want to see how this one comes together!

[rafael2100]

1 minute ago, LegendaryEevee said:

Your pool concept looks outstanding my friend I feel this is a great concept and would love to playtest and make a promotional trailer for your work once you get some things thrown together.  Just shoot me a message and I'll take a look at as little or however much you'd like.  I love the premise and want to see how this one comes together!

 

I'll be sure to let you know (and preferably everyone) when I start this project in summer, gotta wait first

[Astar]

Oh yeah, liminal spaces... I feel some kind of special attachment to them. Perhaps this has something to do with my fear of open empty spaces, especially if it all happens against the horizon.

This.
For some reason, this frame awakened a whole range of emotions and feelings in my childhood. It made me anxious and curious, wanting to know what was on the other side:


When MyHose.wad came out, it gave me this:
 

Spoiler

I mean... just look at this shit. It's liminal to the very core.

 

There is something special about this gray-brown sky and empty endless horizon...

[Jayextee]

There's also this: 

I think I'd play a whole WAD of E1 in this style.

[rafael2100]

4 hours ago, Astar said:

Oh yeah, liminal spaces... I feel some kind of special attachment to them. Perhaps this has something to do with my fear of open empty spaces, especially if it all happens against the horizon.

This.
For some reason, this frame awakened a whole range of emotions and feelings in my childhood. It made me anxious and curious, wanting to know what was on the other side:


When MyHose.wad came out, it gave me this:
 

  Hide contents

I mean... just look at this shit. It's liminal to the very core.

 

There is something special about this gray-brown sky and empty endless horizon...

 

That first picture reminds me a lot of map01 of doom II, and that reminded of a time when as a kid I was playing a lot of doom II, and I vividly remember taking a good look of the outside in the picture and I experienced unknown emotions, I just didn't know how to process them

4 hours ago, Astar said:

For some reason, this frame awakened a whole range of emotions and feelings in my childhood. It made me anxious and curious, wanting to know what was on the other side

 

I think this is precisely what I felt at that moment. I just NEEDED to know what was beyond the borders of entryway, but at the same time... I just felt like I shouldn't go there, like I was going to discover a very disheartening truth about this world

 

[rafael2100]

4 hours ago, Jayextee said:

There's also this: 

I think I'd play a whole WAD of E1 in this style.

 

huh, I didn't think about it at all, redecorate the classic levels to make the look like the poolrooms, I'm very compelled to create one room in the poolroom labyrinth that shares the same layout as one level in the doom series just to really mess with the brains of the players

[Astar]

7 minutes ago, rafael2100 said:

That first picture reminds me a lot of map01 of doom II

It is Map01 from PSX Doom 2 :) 

 

My first Doom was Doom on PS1

[rafael2100]

1 minute ago, Astar said:

It is Map01 from PSX Doom 2 :) 

 

My first Doom was Doom on PS1

On second look, it does look like it is, it shared way too many similarities with entryway for it to be your creation, like I originally interpreted it.

[bejiitas_wrath]

Recreate this easily. This is a pool in Mexico, but what could be around that corner...

 

[Astar]

9 hours ago, Jayextee said:

There's also this: 

Not gonna lie, I was sceptical about it.

But daaamn... that's actually cool

[rafael2100]

4 hours ago, bejiitas_wrath said:

Recreate this easily. This is a pool in Mexico, but what could be around that corner...

 

Lemme give this a try

[ASD]

I wanted to do pool rooms in vanilla but thought the interconnected layout would be too challenging to plan on a 2D engine. If anything E3M7 and TNT MAP29 do have something resembling pool rooms.

[Maximum Matt]

Man I was into liminal shit back in '92 when Wolfenstein came out

[rafael2100]

7 hours ago, bejiitas_wrath said:

Recreate this easily. This is a pool in Mexico, but what could be around that corner...

 

Comparisons :

I don't know I might polish it a little further, but so far it looks great

[rafael2100]

Much better

[⇛Marnetmar⇛]

90% of all retro FPS maps are liminal spaces 

[rafael2100]

4 minutes ago, ⇛Marnetmar⇛ said:

90% of all retro FPS maps are liminal spaces 

It's much more complicated than that, we can't really be precise with data here, especially with liminal spaces.

 

Otherwise, that claim is a horrendous simplification of this topic, and mayble slightly inaccurate

[Maximum Matt]

No, entirely accurate.  The feeling you get when you walk around a level after you've killed all the enemies - or THINK you have - is exactly what these 'liminal' games are claiming is a new thing.  

[neubejiita]

[DankMetal]

1 hour ago, neubejiita said:

Hell yeah, this is the kind of liminal space i would love to see.

Recreating the poolrooms and all of that stuff is cool and all, but i find more fascinating these kinds of screenshots, they are like places you would see on a 90's wad, or a baby's first map.

[WASFDDDDD]

This thread legit inspired me to make a liminal map lol

 

I can send you the WAD if you want