DooM II Map15 Secret SOLVED no Pain Elemental required PLEASE CONFIRM!

[LegendaryEevee]

Pardon my excitement on this but I think I found an absolute way to get the infamous final Secret in DooM II's Industrial Zone without needing the Pain Elemental. The videos I do commentary on are currently on the PlayStation 4 Unity port for both DooM and DooM II so this video applies to that Port only if people can please confirm if this works on the other ports as well!

 

If so I think we have a much easier way to do this without taking away from our runs in any way since you can save and quickly reload the save only taking a second or less still keeping all progress from the current run intact, please see the video below I tested this 10 times in a row worked every time without fail.

 

@MtPain27 @ZeroMaster010 @Jaska @Andromeda @elf-alchemist 

 

 

 

Edited May 30 by LegendaryEevee

[Shepardus]

It's been known that you can trigger the secret by saving and loading (it's documented on the wiki); Zero Master's trick is significant because it enables triggering the secret in a demo recording, which does not allow for saving/loading.

[LegendaryEevee]

On DSDA.  The normal windows screen recorder I use when running GZ Doom records everything regardless of saves and loads. As does the Screen Capture on consoles seen here, for those ports it would be viable?

[Shepardus]

Well of course you can point a screen recorder at any port. A screen recording isn't a demo.

[LegendaryEevee]

It's Windows Key + Alt + r it's built into all Windows computers (Part of the Game Bar) so is Console Screen Captures good Lord I've spent years trying to find a way around this secret and I'm immediately thrown down for it.

Edited May 30 by LegendaryEevee

[Stupid Bunny]

Nobody's throwing you down for it--it's cool you discovered this on your own--the only point is that this is a known thing.  Also that a demo is not a screen capture--a screen capture is a recorded video that just captures the monitor output, a demo is a Doom-specific file that can only be played back by the game engine itself by way of some sorcery.  The distinction is mostly relevant for "formal" runs and records and such.

[TheUltimateDoomer666]

28 minutes ago, LegendaryEevee said:

I've spent years trying to find a way around this secret

Should have read the Wiki first (although to be fair I probably would not have known to check the Wiki either).

Edited May 30 by TheUltimateDoomer666

[LegendaryEevee]

26 minutes ago, TheUltimateDoomer666 said:

(although to be fair I probably would not have known to check the Wiki either).

To be honest the only thing I use the Wikia for is if there's a secret I can't find and I'm about to beat my head in over it 😂

 

Okay, now I understand the Demo would cut if saved there (just learned about your DSDA Demos literally 2 weeks ago).  However if the Demo was restarted with a load of the saved game would it not still show the timestamp of how long into the level you were so that you know it's the same run and no Tom Foolery happened?  It just seems at least this is a way that the 100% Secrets could be reached and reached quickly.

 

For example seen below on DSDA Doom it does tell the overall time you've played this is after loading a save on Liminal Doom 2.  Time in the level is 15 mins but Total time played is almost 50.  This could verify it's the same run if the demo was broken into 2 parts?  If you saw Part A = 5:42.15 & Part B started at 5:42.16 you know it'd have to be the same playthrough because of the second and location at the secret.

Edited May 30 by LegendaryEevee

[Edward850]

Demos in Doom don't and can't maintain the effects of loading a save. DSDA does not change this, and if it did it wouldn't be accepted or compatible.

 

The reason why loading a save allows triggering the secret is because the save forgets exactly what sectors you're standing and drops you in the hole as it no longer sees the edge you're standing on.

However a demo is just a continuous series of player inputs it doesn't know how to load a save, and there's no action to record your sectors being forgotten, it simply isn't in the template. Essentially demos are only ever technically single segment, even if an alternate tool allows recording the demo in different segments.

 

Speedrunning rules for vanilla are rather set in stone, so any modification of the above would be void.

Edited May 30 by Edward850

[LegendaryEevee]

30 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

Speedrunning rules for vanilla are rather set in stone, so any modification of the above would be void.

This if fine if it's not possible it's not possible let's at least enjoy the fact there is another option for 100%ing this map without having to use the Pain Elemental Trick every time (when not doing an official speedrun) a lot of time went into discovering this and people are making me feel bad for even sharing this.  Hopefully there are people who this can help.

[Foxpup]

At least part of the negativity stems from the simple fact that allowing saving and loading in speedruns would allow far more shenanigans than this. There is actually quite a lot of game state that is lost/reset when loading a saved game. In particular, saving and loading restores normal gameplay after triggering the all-ghosts bug, thus trivialising any map where that bug can be triggered on demand (though it does allow 100% secrets on E4M3, for what that's worth). There are also less game-breaking but still unfairly beneficial tricks such as making monsters forget their targets and making revenant and archvile attacks miss.

 

Part of the reason Doom speedrunning doesn't need a "glitchless" category is that the single-segment requirement automatically excludes an entire class of known glitches.

[Amaruψ]

2 hours ago, LegendaryEevee said:

 I've spent years trying to find a way around this secret and I'm immediately thrown down for it.

 

1 hour ago, LegendaryEevee said:

a lot of time went into discovering this and people are making me feel bad for even sharing this.

 

Well, for one thing I fail to see any sort of negativity in this thread, so I'm not really sure where you're getting that from. Second, as @Stupid Bunny has already pointed out, while it's great that you've put your own effort into this and come up with a solution entirely on your own, problem is that Saving / Loading causing the players to clip through thin sectors is a bug which is as old as the game itself, and is known by the community for years. Heck, it's one of the reasons people state whenever they mention why they don't like The Chasm. 

 

The Pain Elemental trick is preferred over this for demo compatibility, plus it allows for single-segmented playthroughs, so this trick isn't used for either. Still, it's something that a casual player can utilize if they're going for 100% secrets.

[LegendaryEevee]

3 hours ago, Shepardus said:

It's been known that you can trigger the secret by saving and loading (it's documented on the wiki);

 

3 hours ago, Shepardus said:

Well of course you can point a screen recorder at any port. A screen recording isn't a demo.

 

2 hours ago, TheUltimateDoomer666 said:

Should have read the Wiki first (although to be fair I probably would not have known to check the Wiki either).

 

2 hours ago, Edward850 said:

Speedrunning rules for vanilla are rather set in stone, so any modification of the above would be void.

 

1 hour ago, Foxpup said:

At least part of the negativity stems from the simple fact that allowing saving and loading in speedruns would allow far more shenanigans than this.

 

@Amaruψ  Literally every single comment that has been made.  MY ENTIRE REASON for even letting everyone know is because I have played Doom II since 94.  This secret being inaccessible has always bugged me.  I only learned about the Pain Elemental Secret from watching Decino play this map.  Tried it myself but could only get it to work 1 time on PC (GZ Doom).  Wanted to find a better way.  Did about everything but stand on my head to get it to trigger.  Finally realized saving and reloading this morning could trigger it.  

 

If you know anything about my content.  I DO NOT DO SPEEDRUNS.  I do not care about being the fastest.  I post 100% Guides and Walkthroughs so people wanting to enjoy the game can find everything if they're stuck on something.  Or people that are speed runners may see me do something different than they do that may make their run faster.  I was excited and wanted to tell everyone.  All I got was bashed by literally every comment how it was common knowledge, not special, and nobody cares.  This is why many ppl post that they're depressed in here because I honestly think it would kill people to be nice and supportive of one another instead of just cutting people down and making them feel worse about themselves.  

Edited May 30 by LegendaryEevee

[Foxpup]

Well, the other part of the negativity is that some things just are negative. You asked us (quite emphatically) to confirm this effect of saving and reloading and we did. That confirmation included the inconvenient fact that your discovery has already been discovered and well documented by others before you. I can see how this is disappointing, especially if you put a lot of time and effort into it, but you shouldn't let it discourage you. Not every great idea you have will be a winner; you just have to keep at it and hope the next one will be better.

[GarrettChan]

I mean, the capitalization and tagging a bunch of people sound like a new thing to discover, but in reality, you don't know what's a demo, which is fine.

However, when people pointed out this is known and can't work with a demo, then your attitude is like "I DO NOT DO SPEEDRUNS. I do not care about being the fastest", which is... a bit strange.

 

I don't see how Shepardus throws you down by simply letting you know the fact.

[Redneckerz]

3 hours ago, LegendaryEevee said:

To be honest the only thing I use the Wikia for is if there's a secret I can't find and I'm about to beat my head in over it 😂

 

 

Careful now... You are using the right wiki do you? /S

54 minutes ago, LegendaryEevee said:

All I got was bashed by literally every comment how it was common knowledge, not special, and nobody cares.  This is why many ppl post that they're depressed in here because I honestly think it would kill people to be nice and supportive of one another instead of just cutting people down and making them feel worse about themselves.  

And i get why you are excited. Congratulations! Its awesome you found this on your own.

 

But, sticking to the facts (As most of your quoted posts you label as "bashing", "not special" do), it isn't a new thing to the community. I understand your disappointment, but please understand not everyone shares the same excitement.

 

As for the bolded: I hope you realize its nobody's intent to make you feel bad, and as such that line reads a bit exaggerated.

[OnymynO]

1 hour ago, LegendaryEevee said:

This is why many ppl post that they're depressed in here because I honestly think it would kill people to be nice and supportive of one another instead of just cutting people down and making them feel worse about themselves.  

 

If one gets offended by being informed of reality in a blunt neutral tone, that is on them. I would rather not live in some weird pleasantville twilight zone of fluff and filler.

 

Why not just use a map editor to make a PWAD that fixes the broken secrets for your own personal playthroughs? Speaking of which, has someone made such a thing? It seems like an obvious thing to make, but my initial searches have only yielded a couple separate fixes, not a one-and-done deal.

 

And I must be blind, because I can't even seem to find a complete list of broken secrets, unkillable monsters, and uncollectable items for the official IWADs. Must I read through every map's wiki page individually?

[Gez]

4 hours ago, LegendaryEevee said:

To be honest the only thing I use the Wikia for is if there's a secret I can't find and I'm about to beat my head in over it 😂

Not the wikia, the real true Doom Wiki at DoomWiki.org. Not the wish.com version peddled by the wikifarm magnates.

 

 

3 hours ago, Foxpup said:

Part of the reason Doom speedrunning doesn't need a "glitchless" category is that the single-segment requirement automatically excludes an entire class of known glitches.

Another part is that Doom speedrunning really just uses its own categories. The demo format has meant that Doom's recorded runs were always a very different thing from most other games' recorded runs.

 

Things like the prohibition on saving/loading is partly due to using this demo format. Heck there are games where a quicksave-quickload combo is an expected part of a speedrun, because it allows to do things like skip lengthy cutscenes.

[dasho]

2 hours ago, LegendaryEevee said:

 All I got was bashed by literally every comment how it was common knowledge, not special, and nobody cares.

 

Aside from the "nobody cares" and "not special" things, which didn't happen, what do you want instead? To be lied to and told you are the first one to discover this?

[GarrettChan]

43 minutes ago, OnymynO said:

Why not just use a map editor to make a PWAD that fixes the broken secrets for your own personal playthroughs? Speaking of which, has someone made such a thing? It seems like an obvious thing to make, but my initial searches have only yielded a couple separate fixes, not a one-and-done deal.

 

And I must be blind, because I can't even seem to find a complete list of broken secrets, unkillable monsters, and uncollectable items for the official IWADs. Must I read through every map's wiki page individually?

 

Well, I guess making maps in a PWAD, which copied from an IWAD is probably not a good thing to do, if I understood this correctly... but honestly I guess you can do that as long as not uploading to idgames etc, though, I feel people just accepted things could be broken from years ago. I also like how the category is called UV Max instead of UV 100% because basically just do your best to get the "max" amount of kill/secret instead of a strict 100%.

 

It's hard to compile a complete list of broken stuff, and probably most people wouldn't care about this outside of IWADs. Therefore, there's a UV Max exception debate thing going on in the speedrun subforum, and as expected, it didn't lead to anywhere :P

Edited May 30 by GarrettChan

[EraserheadBaby]

@GarrettChan

I really like your icon

[GarrettChan]

2 minutes ago, EraserheadBaby said:

@GarrettChan

I really like your icon

oh hey, thanks.

[Decay]

2 hours ago, LegendaryEevee said:

 All I got was bashed by literally every comment how it was common knowledge, not special, and nobody cares.  This is why many ppl post that they're depressed in here because I honestly think it would kill people to be nice and supportive of one another instead of just cutting people down and making them feel worse about themselves.  

Nobody "bashed" you, just pointed out that this isn't a discovery and has been documented on the wiki. Furthermore, it's just a secret in the video game DooM II by id software.

 

[Shepardus]

1 hour ago, OnymynO said:

Why not just use a map editor to make a PWAD that fixes the broken secrets for your own personal playthroughs? Speaking of which, has someone made such a thing? It seems like an obvious thing to make, but my initial searches have only yielded a couple separate fixes, not a one-and-done deal.

In GZDoom, the secret is untagged. It's one of a number of patches the source port automatically applies to specific levels.

[Major Arlene]

3 hours ago, LegendaryEevee said:

I was excited and wanted to tell everyone.  All I got was bashed by literally every comment how it was common knowledge, not special, and nobody cares.  This is why many ppl post that they're depressed in here because I honestly think it would kill people to be nice and supportive of one another instead of just cutting people down and making them feel worse about themselves.  

If this is how you react to mild "pushback" about a secret everyone knows about then I have absolutely no idea how you manage to handle a Youtube channel in the first place.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

Sorry but this doesn't make sense. You've been playing this game since 1994, and you had so much interest in this secret that you finally accidentally stumbled upon the "right" way of doing it, but between 1994 and the creation of this thread, you never bothered to search for "Doom2 map15 secret"?

Edited May 30 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[TheUltimateDoomer666]

6 hours ago, LegendaryEevee said:

All I got was bashed by literally every comment how it was common knowledge, not special, and nobody cares.

My post was a lighthearted joke and wasn't meant to be condescending.
 

6 hours ago, LegendaryEevee said:

This is why many ppl post that they're depressed in here because I honestly think it would kill people to be nice and supportive of one another instead of just cutting people down and making them feel worse about themselves.

What an overreaction. You seem to have a knack for interpreting things in the worst possible way. In another thread you posted about how you were "offended" just because someone wondered why you were copy-pasting Google results in a computer help thread. I must agree with Arlene; I have no idea how you run a YouTube channel if everything offends you.

[VICE]

Sometimes, expectations clash with reality.

 

Nobody bashed you, but you're approaching bashable territory if this is your reaction to finding out you're wrong about something.

[DoomGater]

This is a story about a man, who asked for a pill. He have been offered a red pill. Instead, he took a black pill, but actually he would have liked a blue one.