Best sound to replace for music?

[Milkeno]

I have replaced so I can have cool custom music and dialogue when you start the level by using a lift to start the level off but it seems if u run too far from the lift it gets quieter and quieter, Are there sounds hard-coded that disable the 3d sound functionality? (I'd like to make this limit removing not using boom or prboom or zdoom)

Edited June 9 by Milkeno
clarification

[Sinshu]

The following sound effects are hard-coded to disable 3D sound:

• Spider Mastermind's see sound and death sound
• Cyberdemon's see sound and death sound
• Icon of Sin

If DeHackEd is available, modifying one of these sounds to play at the start of the level should work. Without DeHackEd, one possible method could involve setting up a dummy room with an Icon of Sin and using some mechanism to damage it and trigger its pain sound.

[kalensar]

1 hour ago, Milkeno said:

I'd like to make this limit removing not using boom or prboom or zdoom

 

I hate to burst your Bubble but most PWADS based on "limit removing" (chuckle) targeting also means that It is most likely going to have compatibility with the vast majority of Source Ports, but may lack compatibility with Vanilla Doom(Doom2.exe etc) and Chocolate Doom. One other caveat is that if you are using UDMF map format then your Source Port compatibility list does shrink by a fair amount, but stays compatible with GZDoom, Zandronum, Zdoom 2.8, LZDoom or QZDoom-- And iirc DSDA now mostly supports UDMF, -- And probably compatible with DoomsDay and maybe Eternity Engine, but haven't tested those , so I'm just inferring those compats. Im not sure about 3DGE but for its age it is a surprisingly robust Source Port.

 

And for your 3D sound question-- Doom can emulate sound distance base on distance of the player and the object making the sound, That is not a unque feature  to a source, but is in fact a feature found in Vanilla Doom// Hence the enormous amount of scenarios where you hear doors open in the distance from if the activated door is close enough to the player.

Edited June 9 by kalensar
add info

[Milkeno]

On 6/9/2024 at 12:39 AM, Sinshu said:

The following sound effects are hard-coded to disable 3D sound:

• Spider Mastermind's see sound and death sound
• Cyberdemon's see sound and death sound
• Icon of Sin

If DeHackEd is available, modifying one of these sounds to play at the start of the level should work. Without DeHackEd, one possible method could involve setting up a dummy room with an Icon of Sin and using some mechanism to damage it and trigger its pain sound.

Thank you so much Sinshu, I think I can use dehacked but if not I'll definitely use your icon of sin method!

23 hours ago, kalensar said:

may lack compatibility with Vanilla Doom(Doom2.exe etc) and Chocolate Doom.

Oh I didn't know that, I just assumed limit removing meant any source port that wasn't dos like linux doom, I've been using Chocolate Doom for my map and wad

[Gez]

11 hours ago, Sinshu said:

The following sound effects are hard-coded to disable 3D sound:

• Spider Mastermind's see sound and death sound
• Cyberdemon's see sound and death sound
• Icon of Sin

If DeHackEd is available, modifying one of these sounds to play at the start of the level should work. Without DeHackEd, one possible method could involve setting up a dummy room with an Icon of Sin and using some mechanism to damage it and trigger its pain sound.

I don't believe this will work. The hard-coding is not on the sounds themselves, it's on the mobj_t.

 

You got code like this:

	if (actor->type==MT_SPIDER
	    || actor->type == MT_CYBORG)
	{
	    // full volume
	    S_StartSound (NULL, sound);
	}
	else
	    S_StartSound (actor, sound);

 

Not like that:

	if (sound == sfx_cybsit
	    || sound == sfx_spisit)
	{
	    // full volume
	    S_StartSound (NULL, sound);
	}
	else
	    S_StartSound (actor, sound);

The latter would be hardcoding on the sounds, but the former is what is actually used.

[kalensar]

1 hour ago, Milkeno said:

I just assumed limit removing meant any source port that wasn't dos like linux doom

 

I'm not terribly surprised that you , and many others, get confused by some of the common terminology used in Doom Modding. Its like learning a new small dictionary and thankfully most of the terminology can be reasoned out fairly accurately.

 

But yea, Limit Removing basically means Beyond Normal Doom limits. Using Vanilla limits, If you try to build a custom map in a IWAD map slot that is smaller than your PWAD Map, you can actually cause crashes other bugs. The reason for that is because the IWAD map sizes are the maximum limit for each specific map. THat is why when perusing really old PWADs that you'll see they are placed at specific map slots and are not defaulted to MAP01.

The main power that the Limit Removing format brought is that you are no longer limited in map build size that are directly proportional to the IWAD map dimensions.

 

As another aside: Crispy Doom is a limit removing port that based off of Chocolate Doom, rather than Boom.

[Shepardus]

12 minutes ago, kalensar said:

But yea, Limit Removing basically means Beyond Normal Doom limits. Using Vanilla limits, If you try to build a custom map in a IWAD map slot that is smaller than your PWAD Map, you can actually cause crashes other bugs. The reason for that is because the IWAD map sizes are the maximum limit for each specific map. THat is why when perusing really old PWADs that you'll see they are placed at specific map slots and are not defaulted to MAP01.

The main power that the Limit Removing format brought is that you are no longer limited in map build size that are directly proportional to the IWAD map dimensions.

Where'd you get this from? Vanilla Doom doesn't care what the size of the original map was when you replace it. There are plenty of vanilla maps in the MAP01 slot that are far larger than Entryway.

[Xaser]

56 minutes ago, kalensar said:

I'm not terribly surprised that you , and many others, get confused by some of the common terminology used in Doom Modding.

Yeah, and you're making it worse. Your definition for limit-removing is completely wrong -- check the wiki -- the limits in question are things like visplanes, segs, blockmap (which is related to overall map size but in a weird complicated way). The entire concept of "MAP01's map limits are different than MAP02's, etc." you're claiming has no bearing in reality whatsoever.

 

You need to take a break from commenting on the Doom Editing subforums until you get some more experience under your belt. You've been leaving a lot of vague, misleading, off-topic, or flat-out wrong answers lately, and you're leading new users astray. Hell, even this entire "limit-removing" tangent has nothing to do at all with the OP's question. Why are we talking about this here?

 

 

[Milkeno]

15 hours ago, Gez said:

I don't believe this will work. The hard-coding is not on the sounds themselves, it's on the mobj_t.

 

You got code like this:

	if (actor->type==MT_SPIDER
	    || actor->type == MT_CYBORG)
	{
	    // full volume
	    S_StartSound (NULL, sound);
	}
	else
	    S_StartSound (actor, sound);

 

Not like that:

	if (sound == sfx_cybsit
	    || sound == sfx_spisit)
	{
	    // full volume
	    S_StartSound (NULL, sound);
	}
	else
	    S_StartSound (actor, sound);

The latter would be hardcoding on the sounds, but the former is what is actually used.

I've tried it in chocolate doom and it seems like the audio can still be heard from some distance away without getting quieter, if I keep this first level quick I can probably get away with it without anything like a player falling stopping the music.

[kalensar]

50 minutes ago, Shepardus said:

Where'd you get this from?

 

I remember it somewhere from around KDiKDiZD having to use larger maps such Map13 for reasons that made it work. Hardly the easiest example to use but thats the mechanic that I was referencing. Its nice to know that is not constant variable for projects aiming at Chocolate, <3

15 minutes ago, Xaser said:

Hell, even this entire "limit-removing" tangent 

 

This was in the OP, and I figured it was easy to reply about. I dont want this answer to seem like a rebuttal. I am just answering the conversation directed at me in sincerity.

 

16 minutes ago, Xaser said:

You've been leaving a lot of vague, misleading, off-topic, or flat-out wrong answers lately

 

 

Yup people can be wrong, I am no exception .Thank you for the corrected information on the Limit Removing

I'm not trying to mislead or anything, 

The setup on this subforum is almost identical to quora so that is how I've treated it: Anyone that gives the best answer or good solution, kudos. 

Please understand that I'm  tackling the questions being asked, or referencing something in the post Like I showed above. Tongue-in-cheek is how my answers come out at times. 

 I can misinterpret something in the posts --such as the hearing and sound volumes being affected by distance, and the OP wanting a solution that I wildly misinterpreted.Whoops <3

 

I love helping people out, and I like the trouble-shooting process especially on the ZDoom questions. This has been a fun weekend  for me. I am not offended or anything by the points raised or corrected. I'm  participating on my favorite forum, and see no reason why that should be disparaged.  Me answering modding questions is not unusual for me in any venue, primarily ZD-GZD. I don't mind dipping my toes in any subject of Doom.

 

[Xaser]

The volume of replies here unfortunately isn't large enough for the stackoverflow/quora/etc. "best answers rise to the top" model to work*. It's dangerous to leave a non-confident "maybe-answer" here, because you're then relying on someone else swooping in and correcting any mistakes (which doesn't always happen), and relying on the OP (who is often brand-new to Doom modding) to discern which of the two answers is correct, because neither post is likely to have any significant number of upvotes (if any). A bad answer is worse than no answer.

 

I've noticed this particularly with GZDoom questions -- this forum does not have a large number of GZDoom experts, especially when it comes to non-mapping topics (gameplay modding, ZScript, actor stuff in general). At this point it's frankly more prudent to point people at the ZDoom forums and have them ask their question there instead. The forums are less active in general, but a quick perusal of the Scripting subforum shows a much lower ratio of nonsense/wrong answers. :P

 

[*This particular subforum attempts to use this model, but it doesn't work at all in practice. Posts get maybe 1 or 2 upvotes, on rare occasions, and all that does is screw up the order of the posts unless someone goes out of their way to click the "Sort by Date" button up top :P ]


re: KDIKDIZD, it uses Doom2 so the super shotgun works, and it needed to move its starting map to MAP13 so the secret exit in "E1M3" (MAP15) works in vanilla. There are a few hardcoded map-slot-related things in vanilla/limit-removing (boss death actions, secret exits, MAP30 monster telefrags, and a handful of others), but "map size" is not one of them.

Finally, the point from the OP about targeting limit-removing is relevant in the sense that the answer must be limited to what oldschool DEHACKED can do (i.e. no MBF21 or GZDoom features, no MusicChangers, etc), but the map size discussion doesn't have anything at all to do with the OP's actual question about making a "music sound" thing.

[Gez]

5 hours ago, kalensar said:

I remember it somewhere from around KDiKDiZD having to use larger maps such Map13 for reasons that made it work.

Doom episode 1 secret level exits back to E1M4; Doom II's secret level exits back to MAP16. Which MAPxx slot should be used to have E1M4 be in slot MAP16?

 

There's really nothing about map sizes being hardcoded to map slots. The only thing I can think of that has a mechanism like you describe in vanilla is map names, and more generally string replacement, because those strings are baked in the exe, and so using DEHACKED will overwrite those in the exe, which means you can't have "E1M1: Ode to a Small Lump of Green Putty I Found in My Armpit One Midsummer Morning" to replace "E1M1: Hangar". The map themselves? You can go nuts with them. There are plenty of vanilla projects with map sizes much larger than the id software levels; just compare Shadow Port to Entryway.