DOOM: THE DARK AGES (DOOM 6)

[Man of Doom]

7 hours ago, oneselfSelf said:

With Eternal I think literally most people just don't want to admit that they don't vibe with the game or just that they weren't suited for the type of gameplay Eternal has, so they up the ante just blame the game instead and act like they have vast knowledge of the DOs and DONTs in game development. They just make an ass of themselves in the process and never learn.

Honestly, that’s what all that discourse seems to boil down to.

 

Not only that, it’s worth noting that the whole “X weapon is required to kill this enemy” is absolute BS; while certain strategies are certainly encouraged, they’re not outright required.

If anything, it’s even more encouraged to try different weapon combos and techniques just to experiment with how you can kill enemies differently. Why else do you have entire montages dedicated to how one can just instagib the Marauder with different weapons (including the Combat Shotgun’s full auto mod)?

 

Hell, even with the one enemy that actually does require a specific weapon mod to kill (specifically, using the Microwave Beam to kill the Spirit), you can just get rid of it by killing all other enemies so that it doesn’t have any more enemies to possess in the first place.

 

 

In any case, the official Doom Twitter account made the perfect response years ago (especially given what it was a reply to):

 

 

Put simply, Doom Eternal’s style is simply a different style of Doom; that doesn’t make it any less valid.

[Lila Feuer]

1 hour ago, Man of Doom said:

it’s worth noting that the whole “X weapon is required to kill this enemy” is absolute BS

Yeah it was a bad practice to introduce into the Devil May Cry series with the 2013 reboot by having specialized color coded enemies who can only be hurt by...those respective color coded weapons. Considering that nu-Doom or at least in the case of Eternal and what they're going for with this first-person DMC-like

Spoiler

(which in all fairness did spawn a genre of what I like to call 'rhythm shooters' and there is absolutely nothing wrong with them or Eternal's combat itself)

I would've hoped if they're going to copy someone else's homework they'd copy the correct homework in order to realize this is actually frowned upon and I hope they reconsider for the next game.

Also I'm pretty sure the optimal way to kill the Cacodemon and effectively make it a non-threat on arrival is the combat shotgun's grenade module, otherwise you'll have an annoying spongy monster who will make sure their presence does not go unnoticed. This isn't unique to the Cacodemon either.

Edited June 5 by Lila Feuer

[Gifty]

(I don't kill cacos with the grenades hardly ever anymore. I use the ballista's destroyer beam)

 

(Just because the hint screen tells you of one monster combo doesn't mean it's the only good way!)

Edited June 5 by Gifty

[Ravendesk]

26 minutes ago, Lila Feuer said:

Also I'm pretty sure the optimal way to kill the Cacodemon and effectively make it a non-threat on arrival is the combat shotgun's grenade module, otherwise you'll have an annoying spongy monster who will make sure their presence does not go unnoticed. This isn't unique to the Cacodemon either.

This is true in the very early game, but quite soon after when you have better weapons, RL or charged ballista or ballista+ssg are better for it. Even in early game though rapid fire shotgun alt can arguably be better against cacos than the grenades.

 

Doom Eternal only really introduced monsters that required specific weapon to kill in the first DLC. There weren't any in the main game. In the second DLC they doubled down on this and I think it's almost universally agreed that second dlc is the weakest and this wasn't a good direction. I personally also disliked those new monsters in DLCs. I feel like they tried to fix the problem that didn't need to be fixed and ended up making things worse.

 

Original game however while not having the best balance between weapon upgrades (one choice is often strictly better, although there are weapons with both valid options like shotgun and assault rifle), still allowed absolute freedom in how you kill the enemies and most of the time you were using multiple weapons on higher tier enemies for quickswap combos. It was actually interesting to follow UNM speedruns for the main game after its launch because strategies and weapon upgrade choices were changing over time. There is an established meta in the end but it doesn't really affect first playthoughs.

 

So that criticism about colour coded weapons is partially valid but only for DLC2 and to some extent for DLC1.

Edited June 5 by Ravendesk

[Captain Keen]

12 minutes ago, Ravendesk said:

Original game however while not having the best balance between weapon upgrades (one choice is often strictly better, although there are weapons with both valid options like shotgun and assault rifle), still allowed absolute freedom in how you kill the enemies and most of the time you were using multiple weapons on higher tier enemies for quickswap combos. It was actually interesting to follow UNM speedruns for the main game after its launch because strategies and weapon upgrade choices were changing over time. There is an established meta in the end but it doesn't really affect first playthoughs.

 

So that criticism about colour coded weapons is partially valid but only for DLC2 and to some extent for DLC1.

 

This is a good point. Each DLC leaned more and more heavily into that style of play. Even in the original game, it became more about fighting in a certain specific way in the second half compared to the first half which was more freeform. I think there was a guy on YouTube called Clockner who made these fascinating cinematic videos of Doom 2016 that showed just how much versatility there is in 2016’s combat. He was asked if he would do Eternal videos and said he wasn’t a fan of the gameplay loops in that one because they were too restrictive. But of course some people prefer that kind of combat, especially since there’s still clever ways around things (instagibbing Marauders for example).

 

I do think it’s also a good point above that this site caters to fans of the original Dooms, and 2016 is the closest to those, so it makes sense you have a lot of 2016 fans here. I certainly fall into that category. 2016 actually got me back into Doom, and I played a lot of newer WADs after that and was surprised how much the mapping trends had changed and improved. And Eternal really is almost like a new style of FPS. If you look at all the id games throughout the years there’s really a looootttt of variety.

 

That’s why it’ll be interesting to see where this next Doom (or Quake 1?) goes, since Eternal double and tripled down on its new identity with the DLC. Do they keep going down that path, move away from it, or create something entirely new?

[mrthejoshmon]

I've already gone into detail explaining my inability to enjoy the tone set by newer entries, so no point getting into that now (TL;DR, it's the difference between the Punisher and Spawn, if that makes sense).

 

There is not enough for me to go off of outside of vague outlines, however said outlines are immensely unappealing.

 

Hot take but I think they could do a great game if they made something like Halo 3 ODST, the one where you see the events of the series through the eyes of a regular dude instead of the buffed up super soldier. Make the player a grunt of ARC or the UAC and if you want your bombastic dumb shit then just hand us one of those weird ass mech suits lying around.

[Artyoman]

Love that type of the plot. Normal dude finds cool armor in critical situation and kicks ass immediately

[fishy]

which is funny because that's what doom 4 was going to be. i really want that game to be finished someday.

[jazzmaster9]

I find it interesting that so many people are so afraid of having to, god forbid, switch weapons every few seconds and have a lore not be Tolkien in quality, that we didnt consider that the third game could be very different considering how different 2016 is to Eternal.

 

Like it doesn't have to be 100% 2016 or 100% Eternal 

Edited June 6 by jazzmaster9

[Lila Feuer]

@Ravendesk Fair enough and thank you, I played probably 50% of the game, stopped sometime shortly after 

Spoiler

Doomslayer's goon cave in space gets server raided by khan mommy.

 

[Kroc]

Until nudoom is open source (seriously iD, 2016 was a looong time ago), all discussion about it will ultimately go nowhere.

[Gez]

5 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

have a lore not be Tolkien in quality

No, the problem isn't so much a question of the lore's writing quality; the problem is that Doom is a game that does better without lore.

 

I think I've said it before, but basically, Doom lore is always going to be stupid. And that's fine! It's not inherently a problem to have stupid lore in a video game. I mean, some of the most beloved games have a lore that is basically that a pot-bellied plumber keeps having to rescue a mushroom princess that keeps getting captured by an evil turtle. That's incredibly stupid, and that's okay, that's actually part of the charm.

 

The problem is not in the stupidity of the lore, it's in having a try-hard, in-your-face approach to cramming some stupid lore down your throat. The best part of Doom 2016's lore was when it relied purely on environmental storytelling. The worst part were when it locked you with a monologuing robot that you couldn't even shoot.

 

Doom is a game where environmental storytelling should basically be the only storytelling. Because, let's be honest, the story is stupid (and again, that's not a bad thing in itself) so it should remain in the background. While the story is stupid, the setting is cool. There's a lot of potential to have very moody set pieces, be they some some decaying brutalist industrial complex, some gothic hell temple or some surreal voidscape. Where Doom excels is at ambience and vista. Desperate, frantic fights for survival, alternating with foreboding exploration of sinister places, no one cares about the story anymore when what matters is what you feel while playing. Doom should make you feel anguish before a fight, stress during, and exhilaration of having survived it after, then repeat.

 

So that's where the narrative focus should be, IMO, not in writing some fan-fiction about how the Night Sentinels went forth to Taras Nabad in Argent D'nur by Shor Ethra Regalion, to the house of Samur-Maykr-Betheul-Bazda, he who brought the butter dish to Maligog and the tent peg to the house of Deag Ranak, and there slew they the imps, yea, and placed they the bits in little pots. No, it should be on having simple pretexts for visiting impressive environments and tense situations.

Edited June 6 by Gez

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

4 minutes ago, Kroc said:

Until nudoom is open source (seriously iD, 2016 was a looong time ago), all discussion about it will ultimately go nowhere.

Even if it was open source I doubt the modding community would be all that interesting. What makes you think it'll ever be open source to begin with? And why would it help this discussion at all?

 

Personally I just hope they tone down the silliness and that they hire a writer who doesn't jerk off to WoW Elves while playing Warhammer in the id bathroom.

 

DOOM Eternal:

 

>You're a badass!!

>Keep being a badass!!

>meme moment

>You're still a badass!!

>"WAIT!!! Please read this page from Lord of The Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring that someone left laying around on a floating card for some reason because we couldn't figure out a way to naturally implement our story, so you just have to stop and read some text to understand what's going on in this badass power fantasy where the action never stops!"

>Wow, you're a badass.

[Kroc]

If you can't examine it, pull it apart, mod it and improve it then all discussion ends with what iD decides to do with it. If original DOOM weren't open source it would have been forgotten long ago as a great game, but something stuck in the past that requires some fiddling to get running on new machines, like Daggerfall -- great game, but flawed, and trapped in stasis as the same game it always was even after mods and open-source engine recreations have appeared. DOOM without things like Ashes, Total Chaos or The Golden Souls would just be DOOM.

[Lila Feuer]

14 minutes ago, Gez said:

not in writing some fan-fiction about how the Night Sentinels went forth to Taras Nabad in Argent D'nur by Shor Ethra Regalion, to the house of Samur-Maykr-Betheul-Bazda, he who brought the butter dish to Maligog and the tent peg to the house of Deag Ranak, and there slew they the imps, yea, and placed they the bits in little pots.

I'm so glad it's morning here because this made me howl in the apartment.

[fruity lerlups]

6 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

I find it interesting that so many people are so afraid of having to, god forbid, switch weapons every few seconds and have a lore not be Tolkien in quality, that we didnt consider that the third game could be very different considering how different 2016 is to Eternal.

 

Like it doesn't have to be 100% 2016 or 100% Eternal 

i like the weapon switching in eternal, its one of the best additions, I think Doom eternal has a lot of great elements to the formula, its where it lets you get away with too much stuff and always lets you do the thing you want to do, rather than force you to get creative with limited resources, but let me praise the game for a bit.

Weapon swapping and comboing is satisfying and cool, and the fact you never run out of ammo in doom eternal or ultrakill shows you dont need to "force it" with anything but making it the most optimal way to kill something.

Enemy behaviours and patterns are fantastic, i love the whiplash, dreadknight, marauder, the carcass is like such a fantastic design visually and behaviourally.

Weakpoints are actually kinda cool, a bit overtuned when it lets you trivialize but early game when youre kinda weak it feels really satisfying taking out a manc cannon or arachnotron plasma gun.

The meathook, though overpowered because you just have infinite meathook, is actually really fun, just itd be better if it was limited in use.

The weapons are interesting, the destroyer blade making you use bunnyhop tech to move with it and the stun effect of the microwave beam are two of my favourite levels of depth to a weapon ive ever seen in a game.

So there, theres some praises i have for doom eternal. The game has good things, just i want the push forward/recovery mechanics and fly around the map movement stuff toned down, thats really what makes me just not wanna play the game. The game can work without chainsaw giving you infinite ammo, some levels are even balanced well around that i have a video of me beating blood swamlz deathless without the chainsaw.

what i want is

Doom Eternal minus dash, blood punch and the recharging chainsaw ammo mechanic, with ice bomb, flame belch and meathook being a limited resource you have to collect and manage, and more emphasis on fighting for ground, crowd control and spacing rather than kiting your enemies.

 

 

[jazzmaster9]

So i guess my phrasing should be were afraid that it becomes bad (ie. Has features we dont like) when  the third game could actually be different. I don't know at this point since no one can even agree on what "real doom" is and i kinda tuned out on the Doom Eternal arguing back in 2021

Edited June 6 by jazzmaster9

["JL" was too short]

1 hour ago, Gez said:

The problem is not in the stupidity of the lore, it's in having a try-hard, in-your-face approach to cramming some stupid lore down your throat.

It's both, or to put it precisely, it really gets noticeable when both are bad at once, which they were in Eternal. 

2016 had a few of the segments where you get locked into a room while Hayden talks, but really that was fine with me because the overall lore felt fitting for a Doom game.  Eternal might have had more of the canned segments, but to be honest I still could have tolerated them; what put me off was the new tone and quality of the lore.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

2 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

So i guess my phrasing should be were afraid that it becomes bad (ie. Has features we dont like) when  the third game could actually be different. I don't know at this point since no one can even agree on what "real doom" is and i kinda tuned out on the Doom Eternal arguing back in 2021

Reasonable thoughts are not allowed!

 

I think you're right that it will be different, I think even moreso than 2016 vs Eternal. I haven't even really read any of the info about it yet, but I could see a big change overall revolving around melee to bring it closer to "character action".

[VoanHead]

I just hope that there will be at least mod support for the next doom game. What DE was solely lacking was like a way for people to make custom user made content. 

[dasho]

30 minutes ago, Doom reboot World said:

 Looks like inappropriate ridicule.

 

Is it though

[fishy]

3 minutes ago, VoanHead said:

I just hope that there will be at least mod support for the next doom game. What DE was solely lacking was like a way for people to make custom user made content. 

i wouldn't count on it. they promised mod support for eternal and guess where that went lol

[Firedust]

6 hours ago, fruity lerlups said:

i like the weapon switching in eternal, its one of the best additions, I think Doom eternal has a lot of great elements to the formula, its where it lets you get away with too much stuff and always lets you do the thing you want to do, rather than force you to get creative with limited resources, but let me praise the game for a bit.

Weapon swapping and comboing is satisfying and cool, and the fact you never run out of ammo in doom eternal or ultrakill shows you dont need to "force it" with anything but making it the most optimal way to kill something.

Enemy behaviours and patterns are fantastic, i love the whiplash, dreadknight, marauder, the carcass is like such a fantastic design visually and behaviourally.

Weakpoints are actually kinda cool, a bit overtuned when it lets you trivialize but early game when youre kinda weak it feels really satisfying taking out a manc cannon or arachnotron plasma gun.

 

Doom Eternal minus dash, blood punch and the recharging chainsaw ammo mechanic, with ice bomb, flame belch and meathook being a limited resource you have to collect and manage, and more emphasis on fighting for ground, crowd control and spacing rather than kiting your enemies.

100% agreed. Fantastic enemy design, great weapon comboing.

 

Get rid of the chainsaw/flame belch, because I don't want to feel like I'm forced to melee enemies. Would be better if they restricted specific fights to specific weapons by providing ammo to those weapons only and thus making the player learn how to use the full arsenal. Ammo and armor coming out of demons looks dumb af imo.

Edited June 6 by Firedust

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

1 hour ago, Firedust said:

100% agreed. Fantastic enemy design, great weapon comboing.

 

Get rid of the chainsaw/flame belch, because I don't want to feel like I'm forced to melee enemies. Would be better if they restricted specific fights to specific weapons by providing ammo to those weapons only and thus making the player learn how to use the full arsenal. Ammo and armor coming out of demons looks dumb af imo.

I could do without the flame belch and also the ice bomb shit in general, to be honest. They just aren't all that satisfying to use.

["JL" was too short]

3 hours ago, Doom reboot World said:

that doom eternal is not doom 1-2 and that's bad

It might help the discourse if people realized and/or acknowledged that this argument is not actually being seriously advanced, and if this is the impression anyone gets of people's problems with Doom Eternal then it's because they don't understand the arguments, hope this helps.

[VoanHead]

8 hours ago, fishy said:

i wouldn't count on it. they promised mod support for eternal and guess where that went lol

:(

Honestly DE really could've benefited from mod support for its longevity. DOOM 2016 had snapmap, while limited and quality varies, it's still better than having nothing at all. The closest thing now would just have to look at Embers of Armaggedon's addons of Doom Eternal weapons or even Kar En Tuk (whenever that eventually drops) for mods.

[InfinitePossiblities]

On 5/29/2024 at 1:55 PM, Zemini said:

I don't think so.  Doom Zero was the codename apparently which already suggest it's a prequel.  It also had 600 million in forecast which confirms its existence more than the name itself.  MS will be betting on a "established IP" over something that is a higher risk.  Sadly this puts Quake and Hexen into the unknown .

 

Maybe we get Hexen/Quake lore baked into the game.  Maybe Hexen is the very VERY ancient history of the argenta?  Who knows.

Please let this be real.

[SkeletSpook]

You know what I'm kinda hoping it's not going to be a Quake1 reboot/direct sequel. After all this time I feel like nothing could really live up to the expectations I have for such a game. It might still be a good game but no matter which direction they go with the gameplay, vibe, lore,... it's probably not going to line up with my own personal idea of Quake. Kind of like when you watch a movie adaptation of a book, and it's good but still not quite what you had in mind when reading the book. 

I also think it would probably be a very devisive game for the fans, maybe even moreso than Doom Eternal.

[yakfak]

playing doom 2 while shaking my head to show I don't like how unoptimized its encounters are

[Zemini]

On 6/6/2024 at 9:58 AM, fishy said:

i wouldn't count on it. they promised mod support for eternal and guess where that went lol

 

It was officially stated that the developers at iD are making there games more and more mod friendly as the update their tech.

 

With that said, earlier this year, Doom Eternal did get updated with files that strongly suggest official mod support is coming. 

Edited June 7 by Zemini