World War III?

[Gez]

4 hours ago, Noiser said:

Yes, NATO exapnsionism caused this war.

Nope, it didn't. It's russian expansionism that caused this war.

 

The war was planned very, very long ago -- even before 2014, even before Euromaidan -- and the so-called NATO expansionism is just a stupid pretext that russia has found people gullible enough to believe.

 

Why do you think NATO is popular in the former WarPac countries in the first place? Maybe because russia keeps invading them?

 

Did you know that russia lost the first war in Chechnya, and granted sovereignty to the Chechens? Then a few years after, false flag terrorist attack by the FSB, second war, destruction of Grozny, hundreds of thousands of people killed. Was that because of NATO expansionism? How about the creation of "Transdniestria", was that NATO expansionism, too? The so-called "peacekeepers" were supposed to leave two decades ago, russia signed papers promising it, but then they just stayed there.

 

The war wasn't caused by NATO expansionism. But the war did cause further NATO expansionism, because now Sweden and Finland are in NATO and they didn't want to before 2022.

 

BTW, that enlargement of NATO to Sweden and Finland has been a good opportunity to remind everyone how "NATO expansionism" works. First a country has to want to join NATO. Then it has to be invited to join. Then all parliaments of all involved countries -- the invited one and every single NATO member -- have to ratify it. This has led to some silly horse tradings as certain countries see this as an opportunity for them to haggle in exchange for not vetoing, but anyway.

 

Number of countries that have joined NATO against their will: 0.

 

Also any country can leave NATO if so they wish. They just write an official letter about withdrawing from the alliance, and then it's considered effective one year after. That's in the treaty. No need for a war of independence from NATO.

 

Number of countries that have used this to actually leave: 0.

 

Now let's look at russian expansionism. Number of countries that have joined against their will: all former WarPac countries, and all current members of the russian federation besides Moscovia. The only way to leave is through a war of independence. And then Moscow will invade you again anyway to try to undo this independence, so you'll have to keep fighting wars of independence every five years until you actually join NATO.

Edited June 12 by Gez

[Gez]

1 hour ago, roadworx said:

and the only reason for that is because nato has been loading ukraine up with weapons for the past several years. they would've fallen by now if they hadn't.

Also because russian decision-makers, at all levels, are incredibly corrupt and incompetent.

 

The absolutely pathetic amounts of weapons that the west has given Ukraine would in no be sufficient to explain Ukrainian resistance otherwise. In over two years of war, the West has given Ukraine less stuff than Russia loses in one single month.

[Gez]

4 hours ago, TMMMS said:

or theyd have come to a peace agreement that wouldve satisfied both ukraine and russia

Impossible, russia wanted to either annex Ukraine or turn it into Belarus 2: Novichok Boogaloo; Ukraine wanted to be independent. There was no satisfying both.

4 hours ago, TMMMS said:

something that zelenskyy himself was reportedly game until boris johnson stepped in and told him to not even think about it as nato desperately wants a proxy war with russia even if it means fighting to the last ukrainian

Yeah, that's just more bulllshit talking points from the Kremlin. Utterly false on all points.

 

And be serious: do you really think you can get people fighting against their will? Really? Did Afghanistan teach you nothing?

4 hours ago, TMMMS said:

i even hear zelenskyy has since been using the conflict as an excuse to sell ukraine piece by piece to private interests

Yes of course you hear that; it's one of the kremlin's favorite complete bullshit.

4 hours ago, TMMMS said:

in many ways putin is the new saddam hussein ie yet another american asset who has outlived his usefulness

LOL of course it's because of the USA in the end. Of course poo-tin is just an american ass-et. Nobody on Earth has any agency, except the CIA.

4 hours ago, TMMMS said:

but anyway as i said previously maybe we should go back to talking about the fun kind of doom rather than this...

Yeah, you should.

4 hours ago, Austrian Oak said:

What killed the dinosaurs? The ice age!

No, it was boris johnson and the anglosaxons, I heard it on RT; and Elon Musk even retweeted it, saying "concerning".

[Sonikkumania]

While it is true that Russia should've just stayed on their own side of the border, we really need to pay attention on the war crimes and human right violations commited by the Ukrainean Banderists (Azov, Aidar etc.). They are people who match the "literally Hitler" meme, they're tattooed from head to toes with Neo-Nazi imagery and still worship the SS Galicia regiment. Again this goes both ways, both factions should face international justice.

 

Someone will propably regard this post as Russian apogolism but you can go see these facts yourself from the Web.

[Gez]

28 minutes ago, Sonikkumania said:

While it is true that Russia should've just stayed on their own side of the border, we really need to pay attention on the war crimes and human right violations commited by the Ukrainean Banderists (Azov, Aidar etc.). They are people who match the "literally Hitler" meme, they're tattooed from head to toes with Neo-Nazi imagery (recurring enemy)

You mean like Dmitri Utkin, founder of the Wagner PMC? When Putin shot down his airplane, that was the only act of actual denazification russia did.

 

Or like members of Rusich?

 

The far-right movement in Ukraine got 2% of the votes in the last elections before the war. Far right movements in western Europe have a lot more. Far right movements in Russia itself have even more.

 

But even then, a tattoo, even a distasteful one, is not a war crime. You gotta find actual evidence of actual war crimes from Ukrainians. Meanwhile, the list of war crimes committed by Russians is extremely long. The russian state also worships Stalin, a man whose body count is even greater than his buddy Hitler. (Reminder: the Soviet Union entered WW2 on the side of the Nazis, by jointly invading Poland, following the secret agreement from the Molotov-Ribbentropp pact. They were allied until Hitler's sudden-yet-inevitable betrayal in 1941. Stalin spent the first several day of Barbarossa in complete denial about that, btw, not reacting at all. He had just finished purging the red army of every half-way competent officer they could find just to make sure nobody would threaten him, and now he needed them but they were all dead. The UK had warned him about Hitler's plans beforehand but he had dismissed it as the decadent capitalist west trying to shatter the ironclad alliance of the dictators.)

 

"Both-side-ism" is so very fucking stupid.

 

29 minutes ago, Sonikkumania said:

Someone will propably regard this post as Russian apogolism but you can go see these facts yourself from the Web. 

Noted place where everything is absolutely true 100% of the time, "the Web".

Edited June 13 by Gez

[Sonikkumania]

25 minutes ago, Gez said:

You gotta find actual evidence of actual war crimes from Ukrainians.

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Countries/UA/Ukraine_13th_HRMMU_Report_3March2016.pdf

 

You could also go on Liveleak or any other gore site if you want to see war crimes.

E: I'm done with this thread b4 it gets outta hand. I already told what I wanted to say. Any1 is free to disagree and I'm not defending an hostile country which shares a 900 km wide border with mine.

Edited June 13 by Sonikkumania

[Gez]

29 minutes ago, Sonikkumania said:

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Countries/UA/Ukraine_13th_HRMMU_Report_3March2016.pdf

 

You could also go on Liveleak or any other gore site if you want to see war crimes.

E: I'm done with this thread b4 it gets outta hand. I already told what I wanted to say. Any1 is free to disagree and I'm not defending an hostile country which shares a 900 km wide border with mine.

Have you read it?

 

Quote

 

23.

Nevertheless, the armed conflict in eastern Ukraine has continued. The armed groups exercise control over certain districts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions and carry out sustained and concerted military operations against Ukrainian armed forces. In recent months, most clashes occurred in hotspots along the ‘contact line’ in or close to populated civilian areas. Furthermore, civilians perceived to be affiliated with the armed groups or supporting Ukrainian armed forces were arrested, detained, and subjected to ill-treatment, in violation of the basic and binding protections of common article 3 of the Geneva Conventions. In both Government and armed-group controlled areas of Donetsk and Luhansk regions, OHCHR continued to observe a disregard for the principle of distinction between civilians and those taking active part in hostilities.

 

It's saying that russia is committing these crimes, not Ukraine.

 

The one thing it complains about Ukraine doing is having its military within the cities it's trying to defend, which is an incredibly stupid complaint; and even then they do note that russia's thugs are doing the same thing anyway.

 

Also, quick reminder, none of that would have happened if russia didn't try to take over Ukraine.