Wolf 3D rewired my brain, now I refuse to use saves unless I'm actually done playing.

[oneselfSelf]

I recently finished Wolf 3D and Spear Of Destiny. Not my favorite games but they were enjoyable and I found the challenge of using the lives instead of saving to be even more fun. I liked it so much that I finished both games without any saves. I just replayed through the original episodes of Doom a moment ago and I also did the same thing, didn't save a single time and if I died I just accepted the punishment. Only died twice in the original episodes, I've died maybe 4 or 5 times in Thy Flesh Consumed so far. Haven't felt any need to use a save. Has this happened to anyone else? I know a few people prefer Pistol Starts but this feels much more different.

[JoJo_BadDoom]

Makes me want to play Wolfenstein again - I do tend to savescum a bit

[wildriot]

7 hours ago, oneselfSelf said:

I recently finished Wolf 3D and Spear Of Destiny. Not my favorite games but they were enjoyable and I found the challenge of using the lives instead of saving to be even more fun. I liked it so much that I finished both games without any saves. I just replayed through the original episodes of Doom a moment ago and I also did the same thing, didn't save a single time and if I died I just accepted the punishment. Only died twice in the original episodes, I've died maybe 4 or 5 times in Thy Flesh Consumed so far. Haven't felt any need to use a save. Has this happened to anyone else? I know a few people prefer Pistol Starts but this feels much more different.

i haven't played wolf 3D in a minute, but i do this with most of the games i play, it makes dying feel like a punishment, like you said and its just peak...

[wildriot]

2 minutes ago, JoJo_BadDoom said:

Makes me want to play Wolfenstein again - I do tend to savescum a bit

this persons pfp hasn't loaded in for me yet istg if its that fucked up dog

[Stabbey]

I do usually play individual fights saveless, but I've never been interested in playing an entire map completely saveless. If you die a bunch, it largely just teaches you to memorize what to do in the early parts of the map. I'm getting too old and redoing stuff I've done before several times no longer holds any appeal to me - my time is more valuable.

[Lila Feuer]

@Stabbey echoes my sentiments, I like to preserve challenge but gd wasted time is still wasted time, though I'd rather lose 20 minutes than lose an hour or more as not all maps are designed by their authors without savegames in mind, otherwise how else are you gonna implement those dickheaded traps that require foreknowledge to overcome?

[Shepardus]

Funnily enough, I've been playing Wolf3D (through the Wolf3D TC for GZDoom) and it's rewired my brain to use saves, because damn, those levels can sure be BS. At least the levels are usually short enough that I don't feel compelled to save in the middle.

[DNSKILL5]

“Sch-sch-sch-Schutzstaffel!”

*ratatatat*
You’ve died on your last life and now welcome to the high score screen.

Edited June 17 by DNSKILL5

[Lila Feuer]

@DNSKILL5 That sudden onset SS machine gun firing sound induces a certain PTSD in avid Wolf players.

[Dubbag]

meanwhile I'm over here opening the console and typing "resurrect" lol.

Edited June 17 by Dubbag

[Daytime Waitress]

I guess it just comes down to your own personal goal with that game.

 

Right now, I'm playing a lot of shmups and my goal there is to learn each game to the point where I can reliably clear it on one credit (1CC). Memorising where enemies will spawn in and when; picking up on what threats I can let by and what enemies I have to eliminate before they shower the screen in bullets; knowing where I can't hope to deal with a bullet pattern and have to bomb to evade an attack, then discovering a way around that so I have one more resource in my back pocket for later, more difficult sections - the acquisition of all this knowledge and seeing the improvement on a stage by stage or title by title basis is enjoyable and rewarding to me.

 

And with Doom, I've almost no desire to improve my level of play to such an extent - finishing a map, let alone a megawad, deathless and saveless isn't a priority for me. And so my goal is just to enjoy the environment and blast popcorn enemies while save scumming - because I need that blow-off after labbing Psikyo games lmao

[Andromeda]

On 6/17/2024 at 10:06 PM, Shepardus said:

Funnily enough, I've been playing Wolf3D (through the Wolf3D TC for GZDoom) and it's rewired my brain to use saves, because damn, those levels can sure be BS. At least the levels are usually short enough that I don't feel compelled to save in the middle.

What frustrates me is how fragile BJ is, any enemy other than dogs can kill him in just two shots from full health if you're unlucky. In Doom, the only enemy able to kill a fully kitted player in just two shots is the strongest boss, the Cyberdemon, so it feels a lot more fair in that regard.

Edited June 19 by Andromeda

[Lila Feuer]

1 hour ago, Andromeda said:

What frustrates me is how fragile BJ is, any enemy other than dogs can kill him in just two shots from full health if you're unlucky. In Doom, the only enemy able to kill a fully kitted player in just two shots is the strongest boss, the Cyberdemon, so it feels a lot more fair in that regard.

 

When you have no armor you'll die in two hits from hell nobles and boners lol.

[idbeholdME]

On 6/17/2024 at 11:32 PM, Lila Feuer said:

That sudden onset SS machine gun firing sound induces a certain PTSD in avid Wolf players.

It's the complete quiteness of Schabbs's zombies that is the most terryfing. The blue guys are pushovers, the zombies have incredibly fast attacks, no alert sound and move surprisingly fast.

 

2 hours ago, Andromeda said:

What frustrates me is how fragile BJ is, any enemy other than dogs can kill him in just two shots from full health if you're unlucky. In Doom, the only enemy able to kill a fully kitted player in just two shots is the strongest boss, the Cyberdemon, so it feels a lot more fair in that regard.

Depends on the distance, as Wolf takes distance into account for damage calculation. Point blank - yeah, 2 shots can easily kill.

Edited June 19 by idbeholdME

[Andromeda]

2 hours ago, Lila Feuer said:

When you have no armor you'll die in two hits from hell nobles and boners lol.

I mean a player with 200% health and armor.

[GarrettChan]

3 hours ago, Andromeda said:

What frustrates me is how fragile BJ is, any enemy other than dogs can kill him in just two shots from full health if you're unlucky. In Doom, the only enemy able to kill a fully kitted player in just two shots is the strongest boss, the Cyberdemon, so it feels a lot more fair in that regard.

You need to do the back and forth dance in Wolf3D. When you're moving, you're less likely to be hit, so you need to keep move back and forth all the time when fighting :p

[Lila Feuer]

1 hour ago, GarrettChan said:

You need to do the back and forth dance in Wolf3D. When you're moving, you're less likely to be hit, so you need to keep move back and forth all the time when fighting :p

It's a tradeoff as damage is universal, it goes both ways, your shots are weaker from a distance but so are theirs. Not completely conducive to how firearms work IRL, unless you account for bullet drop off due to extensive travel time, though naturally getting shot point blank will be more devastating due to higher likelihood of a vital being hit, that said I like Wolf3D's unique portrayal of hitscan combat.
 

2 hours ago, Andromeda said:

I mean a player with 200% health and armor.

Yeah ik what you mean, I was comparing without armor and base health in relation to Wolf3D since there is no topping off health or protection in that game (unless you count certain mods that add an armor system.)

[GarrettChan]

11 minutes ago, Lila Feuer said:

It's a tradeoff as damage is universal, it goes both ways, your shots are weaker from a distance but so are theirs. Not completely conducive to how firearms work IRL, unless you account for bullet drop off due to extensive travel time, though naturally getting shot point blank will be more devastating due to higher likelihood of a vital being hit, that said I like Wolf3D's unique portrayal of hitscan combat.

 

You can keep moving and still have the max damage within 2 units. I'm not talking about taking less damage. I'm talking about you're less likely to get hit.

Edited June 19 by GarrettChan

[Lila Feuer]

@GarrettChan Oh okay, yeah there's also the possibility for you and the enemy to roll zero damage, which is why sometimes a guard will shoot you point blank and somehow "miss".

Spoiler

Divine intervention.

 

[spineapple tea]

On 6/17/2024 at 4:33 PM, Dubbag said:

meanwhile I'm over here opening the console and typing "resurrect" lol.

The resurrect cheat was my absolute beloved when I started playing Doom, in fact I'm pretty sure it taught me how to spell 'resurrect' (I was probably 11 years old).

[Dark Pulse]

On 6/17/2024 at 5:07 PM, DNSKILL5 said:

“Sch-sch-sch-Schutzstaffel!”

And now I'm thinking of Chia Pets. Thanks.

[DiavoJinx]

7 hours ago, Andromeda said:

What frustrates me is how fragile BJ is, any enemy other than dogs can kill him in just two shots from full health if you're unlucky. In Doom, the only enemy able to kill a fully kitted player in just two shots is the strongest boss, the Cyberdemon, so it feels a lot more fair in that regard.

IIRC Wolf 3-D was designed such that the closer the target, the more damage the attacker does.  It goes both ways.  Don't ever let any enemy get close to you ever, unless you shoot first. =)

[WASFDDDDD]

Speaking of saving, one thing I like to do is just load up Doom 2 or smth, play until I die, and then quit the game without saving. I can usually reach the Factory before I get murked by the bullshit lowering platform shotgunner room, if I don't die to one of the inescapable death pits in Tricks and Traps

 

Honestly it's somehow less frustrating to have to restart from the very beginning of the game than it is to have to restart from the beginning of the level, I think you should try it sometime

Edited June 19 by WASFDDDDD

[roadworx]

nah, that never happened to me after playing wolf3d.

 

when i played through wolf3d, it was on the gba (i know, i know...srsly tho, it's not that bad), which would only let you save at the end of a level. it was uh...horrid. lol. however, that didn't rewire my brain or anything to not save; if anything, it made me far more grateful to be able to save mid-game in doom instead of only being able to at the end of the map. that sorta thing truly makes you realize how much you've taken seemingly basic quality of life features for granted.

 

4 hours ago, Lila Feuer said:

@GarrettChan Oh okay, yeah there's also the possibility for you and the enemy to roll zero damage, which is why sometimes a guard will shoot you point blank and somehow "miss".

  Hide contents

Divine intervention.

 

heh, built-in blockmap bug

 

yeah, wolf3d's combat is rather interesting. it very much feels like you're supposed to have a very slow, cautious playstyle due to how quickly the player character can die...but the ideal strategy is actually the complete opposite. you're supposed to keep moving in order to be a harder target. it makes sense, seeing as how romero loves movement...it just feels so counterintuitive at first

[Andromeda]

3 hours ago, WASFDDDDD said:

Speaking of saving, one thing I like to do is just load up Doom 2 or smth, play until I die, and then quit the game without saving.

Yeah I do this sometimes, not with Doom II but rather random wads on /idgames. It's really rewarding when you manage to go all the way to the end without saving.

Edited June 19 by Andromeda

[Andrea Rovenski]

8 minutes ago, roadworx said:

when i played through wolf3d, it was on the gba (i know, i know...srsly tho, it's not that bad), which would only let you save at the end of a level. it was uh...horrid.

I LOVED wolf3d on gba when I was a kid, because it was so fun killin nazis when I was at school. Such an excellent port, but the saving made it so challenging honestly. 

[Lila Feuer]

16 minutes ago, roadworx said:

yeah, wolf3d's combat is rather interesting. it very much feels like you're supposed to have a very slow, cautious playstyle due to how quickly the player character can die...but the ideal strategy is actually the complete opposite. you're supposed to keep moving in order to be a harder target. it makes sense, seeing as how romero loves movement...it just feels so counterintuitive at first

It actually works both ways really well, you can take it slow and careful, peeking around corners (turning in place to see more than you're suppose to) and going back into cover after firing at someone from range...or you can go in guns blazing, moving around at top speed with reckless abandon and it totally supports this. It feels extremely satisfying for me to clear an entire room of enemies without them ever getting off a single shot, easiest with the chaingun but depending on the enemy type/configuration you can accomplish this with the machine gun too.

[LadyMistDragon]

So basically, starting each map with a pistol and like what, 8 shots or something pathetically low like that? Ugh, I always reloaded because that was prohibitively restrictive and unfortunately, Wolf 3D is Wolf 3D: there's nothing so compelling that I feel driven to play it again at all.

[Astar]

I don't know what's the big deal about the saveless.

Perhaps I would have played with fewer saves, but I value my time too much, which is already short

[DNSKILL5]

All the guns in Wolf 3D use the same ammo and do the same damage. Tapping fire for the smg is the same as firing the pistol. Tapping fire with the chaingun gives a 2 round burst attack. Unless you are tight on ammo it is usually not necessary to switch between the guns other than switching to the knife to conserve ammo. It's not like Doom where each weapon has a purpose, all the weapons in Wolf 3D share the same purpose just with different firing rates.