how would you rate your mental health?

[fruity lerlups]

27 minutes ago, durian said:

There are many, many, forms of therapy, and many of them do not obviously fit the crude generalisations that you've sketched here. I'm not interested in having a discussion, but I encourage anyone who thinks they might benefit from some form of therapy not to be dissuaded by posts like these.

i think people dont empathize enough with mental health sufferers whove had a megative experience with therapists. Ive seen 6 different therapists, and each have judt been me wasting my.money.

If youve had a wonderful therapist, im happy for you, but every time i mention that therapy hasnt worked for me im told to "shop around", therapy is the modern confessional.

Edited June 20 by fruity lerlups

[fruity lerlups]

17 hours ago, june gloom said:

 

I agree with this, but not in the sense that American healthcare is a scam (though it is) and more that therapy itself isn't actually designed to help anyone. Therapy is just a powerful tool for oedipianization (which means, in essence, training a patient to self-police into conformity and ensuring they return to producing surplus value, manifesting in things like self-repression and a desire for authority figures; in short, putting a cop in your head) managed by therapists who are paid by the hour to make unfalsifiable diagnoses. In short, therapy is a tool to train patients into embracing a police state, and, crucially, you don't need capitalism for that: many nominally leftist states and movements used therapy as a weapon against their citizens/members.

 

There may be some value for people in genuine crisis, but the idea that therapy is universally helpful seems to be a self-replicating meme among patients (many of whom are unable to stop being patients) who treat therapy as an all-encompassing panacea and ascribe moral value to therapy as if not being in therapy is a sign of some sort of failing. They adopt an attitude that therapy serves a neutral function within capitalism and the process of production, as if something like that could ever exist, and my experience is that the people who make that assertion are little more than cultists.

 

I'm not promoting alternate medicine or woo or anything like that; if anything, I think therapy is alternate medicine/woo, and the way therapy patients treat it is very similar to how people who believe in woo like essential oils act. There are many ways to work through one's problems in a healthy way, paying some nerd who can have you institutionalized on a whim doesn't seem like one of them.

a thousand plateaus

[durian]

1 hour ago, fruity lerlups said:

i think people dont empathize enough with mental health sufferers whove had a megative experience with therapists. Ive seen 6 different therapists, and each have judt been me wasting my.money.

 

I'm sorry to hear that. But it would be a mistake to generalise from your one case to the conclusion that therapy is a scam and a waste of time for everyone. Likewise, it would be a mistake to generalise from a successful experience to the conclusion that it's great and will work for everyone. You need to take a broader view if you want to determine the effectiveness of any form of therapy. There's a large scientific community that's geared towards doing just this.

[fruity lerlups]

1 minute ago, durian said:

 

I'm sorry to hear that. But it would be a mistake to generalise from your one case to the conclusion that therapy is a scam and a waste of time for everyone. Likewise, it would be a mistake to generalise from a successful experience to the conclusion that it's great and will work for everyone. You need to take a broader view if you want to determine the effectiveness of any form of therapy. There's a large scientific community that's geared towards doing just this.

when it costs as much as it does, its just not worth it.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

1 hour ago, fruity lerlups said:

i think people dont empathize enough with mental health sufferers whove had a megative experience with therapists. Ive seen 6 different therapists, and each have judt been me wasting my.money.

If youve had a wonderful therapist, im happy for you, but every time i mention that therapy hasnt worked for me im told to "shop around", therapy is the modern confessional.

I had a negative experience with therapy around the age of 18 but I know people who had the opposite. And they certainly don't live with "cops in their head" like one post here implies, which is quite frankly insulting to me, insinuating that people with therapists become mindless drones reconditioned to become fully reliant on therapy in order to survive. I've seen the same thing said about Alcoholics Anonymous - that it doesn't work and everyone in AA becomes fully dependant on the program for life. Nobody I know in therapy or AA, or even the military, has been reconditioned to such an extent and I only know of one who remained in therapy after they felt their problems were solved well enough to get by. Honestly some posts here come across as though people don't want to empathize with people who had success with therapy. It's very simple: it works for some people, it doesn't for others.

[june gloom]

Anyone who takes issue with what I said earlier in this thread, I recommend you read Gilles Deleuze, Anti-Oedipus might explain it a little better than I can. I've been to therapy multiple times across multiple therapists since I was a child. It did nothing but gaslight me. And the kind of people who push therapy as a cure-all tend to be like my former best friend, a raving narcissist who went to therapy to learn how to be a worse person. I will never forget what they did to me and how they used therapy lingo to justify it.

 

1 hour ago, dasho said:

 

This is not even what the person you're replying to was trying to say. If you have mental health problems, a potential partner:

- Deserves for you to be treating your mental health as best you can prior to seeking a relationship and not conflating the dopamine rush that comes from a new relationship with the 'cure'

- Deserves to have full disclosure about your mental health issues so that they can make an informed decision about committing to such a thing

 

This is a very generous reading of what someone who has been very dismissive of this entire thread was saying, and to be honest, I don't think said reading is accurate, but I'm definitely fine with not debating it. He can explain for himself if he wants.

Edited June 20 by june gloom

[dasho]

4 minutes ago, june gloom said:

This is a very generous reading of what someone who has been very dismissive of this entire thread was saying, and to be honest, I don't think said reading is accurate, but I'm definitely fine with not debating it. He can explain for himself if he wants.

 

It's a literal reading, if you go back and actually read the post. You have to be careful not to confuse how a statement makes you feel with what is actually said.

[june gloom]

Please don't patronize me. "You need mental stability by yourself before planning to get in a relationship" is pretty cut and dry in its meaning and implications. I understand that you have a different interpretation but it's not mine. Again, I'm fine with not debating it until and unless he can come in and explain for himself.

Edited June 20 by june gloom

[fruity lerlups]

i think people really got to realize that "try therapy" is a deeply patronising, presumptuous and naive reply to someone facing mental health issues and to just stop saying it. I genuinely mean it, unlearn the conditioned response in yourself to recommend therapy when someone talks about their mental health issues, and dont get high and mighty when someone gets upset over it, you dont know if theyve already done it, if they can afford it, their access to it, their history with it.

[dasho]

6 minutes ago, june gloom said:

"You need mental stability by yourself before planning to get in a relationship" is pretty cut and dry in its meaning and implications.

 

If it is so cut and dry, please explain where it is cut and dry that someone doesn't deserve love if they have mental illness.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

10 minutes ago, fruity lerlups said:

i think people really got to realize that "try therapy" is a deeply patronising, presumptuous and naive reply to someone facing mental health issues and to just stop saying it. I genuinely mean it, unlearn the conditioned response in yourself to recommend therapy when someone talks about their mental health issues, and dont get high and mighty when someone gets upset over it, you dont know if theyve already done it, if they can afford it, their access to it, their history with it.

The simple act of recommending therapy to someone suffering from mental health problems is a reasonable and responsible thing for a friend to do. Much better than the burnt-out "just try LSD/shrooms/weed trust me bro" people I encounter on a regular basis. And that's coming from someone with a 15+ year history of depression and drug use, who had zero benefit from therapy. It would benefit you more to unlearn the conditioned response to get angry at people trying to help you and instead say "I already tried therapy, it didn't help".

Edited June 20 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[june gloom]

10 minutes ago, dasho said:

 

If it is so cut and dry, please explain where it is cut and dry that someone doesn't deserve love if they have mental illness.

It's kinda right there in the text, fam. Meanwhile you're the one who extrapolated things that weren't actually said. He never said anything about disclosing your mental health status to a prospective partner, in fact he's arguing fairly directly that you should be mentally stable before getting into a relationship which just isn't possible for a lot of people.

Edited June 20 by june gloom

[dasho]

2 minutes ago, june gloom said:

It's kinda right there in the text, fam.

 

It says that someone with mental health issues doesn't deserve love right in the text? It's fine that you interpreted it that way, but it really does not state that.

 

Also, "stability" does not mean you have no mental health problems. Like any other medical condition that can last a lifetime, it is about treatment and management. 

Edited June 20 by dasho

[june gloom]

Again, if that's how you want to interpret it, that's fine, but I would really rather not argue about it any more than we already have.

 

2 minutes ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

The simple act of recommending therapy to someone suffering from mental health problems is a reasonable and responsible thing for a friend to do. Much better than the burnt-out "just try LSD/shrooms/weed trust me bro" people I encounter on a regular basis. And that's coming from someone with a 15+ year history of depression and drug use, who had zero benefit from therapy.

 

While "just do shrooms about it" is obviously a much worse suggestion, it doesn't make "have you tried therapy" a good thing to say. I cut people slack if they don't know me, but at this point anyone who knows me and my history knows better than to suggest it.

[Craneo]

On 6/19/2024 at 6:27 AM, Lila Feuer said:

It ironically takes broken people to help broken people

Can't that end up creating an echo chamber tho?
EDIT:
quoting June

Quote

So you're saying that people who have mental health problems aren't deserving of love?

I think you are acting a bit defensive there, I read it more as a "hurt people hurt people" thing, you can have a mental illness and love others, I know damn well I wanna find love someday but I am self aware enough (now) to know not to turn my mental health problems into a bagagge for whoever I like (specially after me being a dipshit  to someone I loved back when I was 17 eventually led to me burning that bridge due to my own unstability)

Edited June 20 by Craneo

[Lila Feuer]

5 minutes ago, Craneo said:

Can't that end up creating an echo chamber tho?

Someone with longer experience who's been there versus someone who may not of been there as long or is as good at holding it together can be better at counseling.

[JoJo_BadDoom]

I felt like shit before starting therapy, and now I'm feeling slightly less shit. If this improvement keeps up, I'm gonna have to say that therapy can work, depending on the therapist, and also depending on yourself

[Lila Feuer]

3 minutes ago, JoJo_BadDoom said:

I'm gonna have to say that therapy can work, depending on the therapist, and also depending on yourself

Yeah, you can also be your own barrier as well, and at that rate you're living in a bubble, of pain.

[Craneo]

1 hour ago, Lila Feuer said:

Someone with longer experience who's been there versus someone who may not of been there as long or is as good at holding it together can be better at counseling.

having a mental illness for a long period of time does not make someone qualified to give life advice to someone that has had it for less time

by that logic I'd have to hear Kanye's advice and... he is not very mentally sound, in spite of him being a good artist imho.

[dasho]

24 minutes ago, Craneo said:

by that logic I'd have to hear Kanye's advice and... he is not very mentally sound, in spite of him being a good artist imho.

 

As long as you don't follow Diddy's advice either 

[PWAD Pete]

.

 

Edited June 21 by PWAD Pete

[Murdoch]

6 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

The simple act of recommending therapy to someone suffering from mental health problems is a reasonable and responsible thing for a friend to do. Much better than the burnt-out "just try LSD/shrooms/weed trust me bro" people I encounter on a regular basis. And that's coming from someone with a 15+ year history of depression and drug use, who had zero benefit from therapy. It would benefit you more to unlearn the conditioned response to get angry at people trying to help you and instead say "I already tried therapy, it didn't help".

 

On point. Therapists are human. There's good ones, and bad ones, and sometimes it's about finding the right one for you.

[DJVCardMaster]

3/10

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

5 hours ago, PWAD Pete said:

Abysmal. At this point the only thing keeping me alive is the guilt of knowing what it would do to my family if I gave up.

 

I'm not sure where you're from, but I live in the USA. In my country, therapy is an absolute joke. There is no incentive to better you. The motive is to turn you into a regular customer. The healthcare/mental health system in America has always been about serving the institutions at the cost of the consumer. If they did their job and fixed the issues people suffered from, they would be shooting themselves in the foot. That is the nature of capitalism. There's a reason the USA suffered far more covid deaths than any other country. People didn't seek help until it was too late because they understandably didn't want to bankrupt themselves over what they perceived to be a glorified flu.

 

I personally don't see how anyone can defend a for-profit healthcare system. The only ones who do so are either bought out by the health insurance industry, or are dumb enough to fall for the propaganda.

I live in America as well and paid $0 for therapy and $4/month for prescriptions (for Prozac that didn't work). I also pay $0 for my dental work because I'm such a bought-out propaganda-huffer that I learned how to use the internet to find something I can afford even if I'm broke. I'm only phrasing that in such an abrasive way because because I said nothing that defends the American healthcare system, nor have I given any kind of money to the American healthcare system that equals the amount I spent on my Blockbuster subscription in 2007. Actually I'm just kind of cranky today. Either way the fact that I live in America as well puts your anectdotal experience against mine which brings us back to my point: it works for some people, for other people it doesn't.

 

I'm sure free counseling sucks compared to anything you can pay for, and personally I believe that there is an over-reliance on antidepressants that are of questionable quality. I know that's a divisive topic, I don't have any qualms with anyone who feels differently. But nobody forces you to take those, and you're free to be upfront from the start if you don't want to. Even if all you get at first is someone mediocre to talk to, there's probably still a better chance of trying to end up helping you rather than hurting you. You can always keep trying if you're determined to try. Should it be better and are other developed countries offering much better free healthcare and is the reason behind all this because of our healthcare system? Yes, yes, and yes. But who is going to deny that?

 

In a discussion about the U.S. health system, I get that it's inevitable that the conversation has to turn into left vs right at some point, and it's understandable and almost unavoidable in this context, not a result of people wanting to argue. But both the most hardcore republicans and democrats I know in real life would rather have their taxpayer dollars go towards helping suicidal people and people with legitimate problems rather than the dumb shit it goes towards now. Most people in real life don't want other people to be depressed and kill themselves.

 

Changing subjects, not directly responding to anyone (somewhat an answer to the original question):

 

When you're depressed It's very easy to become a part of The System. Even moreso if you have a drug problem, because The System is rigged like a morbid and expensive carnival game. If you're depressed, you're more likely to be poor and vice-versa. If you are either one of those, especially both, you're more likely to be on drugs. If you're poor, depressed, and on drugs, you're more likely to commit a crime (not talking about murder or robbery or anything violent in this case, just a very boring and common crime most people couldn't even give a shit less about). If you commit a crime, you go to jail where you are charged a fine from the money in your wallet. They take your cash, minus the fine, and put it on a pre-paid debit card. Then you go to jail, where you can post bail for a large sum of money. Then you go to court, where you are charged more money. If you want a lawyer, that costs a lot more money. If you want a public defender, you can't get one unless you are virtually penniless. They still charge you for a public defender, so you're paying either way. You won't know if you can get one until you apply for a $50 fee. The DA will offer you a plea-bargain called "probation" where you pay a monthly fee to be drug tested even if your arrest had nothing to do with drugs, a fee for them supervising you, all your court costs and court-ordered fines and restitution, mandatory donations to charity, fees for any classes they order you to take, and community service (which can be opted out of at a fee of $10-25/hour), and you pay your fees through a service that charges a 5% fee. If you can't pay your fees or if you piss dirty when they hand you the cup, the punishment is more probation and more frequent piss tests, which means more fees because they charge you for each one. They can also charge you with "violation of probation" and "contempt of court" for breaking your end of the agreement, and there's a fee involved with that. Once you're back at your job (actually you might lose your job on account of being in jail and your probation officer showing up to your job and informing your boss that you're now a convicted fellon requiring supervision) you can begin to work to pay back your $10,000 in court fines and probation fees, and community service, and kick your heroin addiction on top of all that (don't worry, they offer you rehab for a daily fee). If you do this, you can sometimes have the case dismissed for a fee. If you can't then you go to jail, and then when you're released you've lost everything you own and you're still in debt, but at least you're not being watched anymore, so why not go back to shooting up? You wanted to kill yourself to begin with anyway. At least there's no motherfucking fees.

 

Wall of text because it's a wall of shit. Not a direct summary of my current situation, but it's a mixture of things from the present and past that realistically could have happened in that order to give an idea of how the justice system works.

 

But I'm proud to say that I'm doing alright. I'm more confident now than I've ever been. Gotta do what I gotta do, and there's nothing I can do about it, that's just the way life is. It sucks but sometimes it's the truth. I know it's made me both tougher and more compassionate. I believe in helping those who need it because I know there are other people out there in my position, and I'm at a rare point in life where I can really say "I don't deserve this shit". I didn't hurt anyone and the financial "damage" the "victim" incurred was extremely minimal compared to the assault I'm receiving. I've made mistakes but I've been a good person in life, to my friends and my family, and I'm smart and I've worked hard in life even though I've been suicidal. It would be easy to feel sorry for myself, but I find I'm at my weakest when I do that. Instead, I tell myself that I can handle it and become stronger. That's what gets me through life - not my personal mental health score, but knowing that I can improve it. If I can do it I'd like to help other people do it too. 

Edited June 21 by TheMagicMushroomMan
Large edit, fixed some sentences I didn't proofread well enough.

[PWAD Pete]

Chill out dude I never claimed you were defending the healthcare system and I'm not sure how you thought I interpreted that from your post.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

9 minutes ago, PWAD Pete said:

Chill out dude I never claimed you were defending the healthcare system and I'm not sure how you thought I interpreted that from your post.

You're good my man, only the first paragraph is a response to your post and I wouldn't be mad at you either way. I agree with you, so I hope you get why I wouldn't want anyone getting confused and thinking I'm supporting the healthcare system. It's not even a healthcare system, it's just another "The System".

Edited June 21 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[PWAD Pete]

It seems like you were getting defensive about what I said. The last paragraph of my post was directed not at you but at the corrupt/ignorant people of this country in general.