Half-Life 2 vs. Doom 3

[Fletcher`]

BlueSonnet said:

These screenshots have me fearing HL2 kicking doom3's ass. But having just looked at the zombie with the chainsaw pic, i can relax. :)

The HL2 pics are too bright. :P

[Kinsie]

Zoorado said all sorts of smart things[/B]

Indeed. Both games will rock, and the more good games, the more happy gamers. Share the lubbin' people!

[LorD BaZTArD]

Sorry, but damnit. Normal maps are bumpmaps. The method is different, and the effect does have some differences, but normal maps, are bumpmaps, and Yes, HL2 Does have normal maps.

HL2 does look pretty damn good. Fairly similar to D3, although, again both are using the graphics for different purposes. HL2 does have real-time lighting, the polygon counts are in the 5000 range for player characters, Although as someone else stated the physics and sound of HL2 will steal the show, I mean, the eyes are modeled realistically, the mouth will automatically sync to any wav file, a character move's it's finger and the hand will react accordingly. Have a sound near a character and if it hears it, it might investigate the noise. Scripted sequences are "interactive", go one way while being chased by an Antlion, and you might meet a marine APC, resulting in the Antlion turning on the APC instead, go another path and you'll have to keep running as you'll never see the APC. Power cables above the ground will sway in the breeze. Smash a wooden strut and the platform it's holding up will plumment to the ground, pick of a barrel and throw it against a wall, it will bounce depending on how it hit the wall. Not to mention if it plays as excellently as the first, without any jumping puzzles either apparently. Everything will work together to create a living enviroment.

It sounds damned fantastic, although: I think Comparing the two games is pointless though. D3 is a Horror/Sci-fi game, with the emphasis on Scaring the shit out of you, and HL2 is an Adventure/Sci-fi game. Different genre's sharing the same point of view, through the eyes of the character. Comparing Deus Ex to Quake 3 is beyond stupid, as Deus Ex is pretty much an RPG. Comparing System Shock and Deus Ex might make more sense, but again they are different as well.

Both games, Doom 3 and Half Life 2 will be awesome games. I'm going to buy both. I will hopefully, be blown away by both.

Zoorado, yes. Other games use havok. Nothing new there, agreed. but the effects they are using Havok for, have not been seen before. Also, the physics engine is highly modified.

[Zoorado]

It's true that HL 2 has bump mapping (though not apparent in screenshots), but the method used is still unclear. Is it traditional or dot3? I do not know, and I don't think you do too.

Regarding real-time lighting, I' not too sure. The screenshots surely do not show. Can't see any self-shadowing, and there are some spots where shadows don't appear as they ought to (a lampost in one screenshot doesn't even cast a shadow). Even if it does have real-time lighting, it will probably be through the use of shadowmaps (as in Splinter Cell). Not too impressive from what I've seen.

And yes, the physics sure sounds amazing, but it will not be anything groundbreaking. DX 2 is also using the Havoks engine AFAIK, albeit a "heavily modified" one. On the other hand, DOOM 3's proprietery physics engine looks to be cool, and will probably be on par with HL 2's. In the sound aspect, I think all 3 games will excel. Unlike DX 2 and DOOM 3, there's no mention of physics sound in HL 2. I'm not an expert in sound, but I think DOOM 3 will be the first game featuring six-channel-mixing 5.1 DTS. Not too sure about that though.

As of now, the only features about HL 2's technology that impresses me is the facial expression (including the eyes), the mouth-synching bit, and the awesome AI. On other aspects, DOOM 3 will probably steal the show (IMO).

[toxicfluff]

I reckon the engine supports bumpmapping, but doesn't actually use it everywhere. It's clearly absent in the screenshots, and so is realtime lighting. The lightmap resolution is also plainly visible. The models don't even appear cast shadows over themselves like in Q3.

[LorD BaZTArD]

Actually, Zoorado, the bumpmaping is easily apparent. My post had a link to a shot that showed it quite clearly......but for some reason....the link didn't work. So I removed it.

Just copy and paste this: http://members.lycos.nl/sjoerdow/HL2_7.jpg and look at the pavement. Also, valve are implementing the way the bumpmaps are seen, so instead of standing out, they are blended in to be as subtle as possible, and It works.

You are missing the physics point though. EVERYTHING has physics...dropping a bottle from different heights will have different reactions, the way a barrel lands on the ground. Smashing a wooden crate and then walking on it will disturb the balance of the character. Throw a barrel against cement and the screech it makes will be different from the sound it makes if the barrel hits wood.

Just because another game uses the same system doesn't mean you can't do it differently. UT2k3 was sposed to have havok, It did...only in one feature.....dead bodies, I don't know about Dx2's implementation either, but I doubt it will be to the level valve are using.

[LorD BaZTArD]

Woah, just reading the Recently released PCZone scans.

"The zombie had recovered from the barrel I threw at it, and was advancing. Suddenly, I had an idea and shot at the planks of the bridge in front of me. Wooden shards flew everywhere as the plank collapsed...and the zombie walked right into the now gaping whole in the bridge, and fell through it, into the water below" In game. That's just a small description, but it sounds damn cool.

[Zoorado]

The shot you point out to me is of poor quality. Because of that, I can't judge on the presence of bumpmapping. But if bumpmapping is truely applied, then it's not apparent. You talked about the subtle bumpmapping that is easily apparent. Isn't that abit ironic?

Anyway, what have I missed about the physics? If you've seen the Havoks 2 demo video, you'll know that most of the features you just mentioned is possible right out of the box. Like HL 2, DX 2 is focusing on environmental interaction, so there shouldn't be much difference. On the other hand, UT2K3 uses MathEngine's Karma physics, created by ppl at Oxford University (IIRC). Those are two different engines, and to be frank, I think Havoks engine works much better.

And the bit from the article sounds really cool. Wonder if DOOM 3 would be able to top that. Maybe no destructible wood, but the realistic glass-shattering looks to be amazing too. In the recent Gamespot DOOM 3 preview, Tim Willits talked about a zombie crashing through a glass window due to the impact of a point-blank shotgun shell, before rolling down a flight of stairs. Hmm...

Both games will be revolutionary, I'm sure. Just that DOOM 3 would be more so in terms of graphics and sound, whereas HL 2 will top in the gameplay and AI department. Physics and MODability of the games is still very unclear, and should only be judged after both are released.

[Shaviro]

Zoorado said:

Both games will be revolutionary, I'm sure. Just that DOOM 3 would be more so in terms of graphics and sound, whereas HL 2 will top in the gameplay and AI department. Physics and MODability of the games is still very unclear, and should only be judged after both are released.

Bullshit! How do we know HL2 will have better gameplay than Doom3?
Please stick to what we know...

[Zoorado]

IRT Shaviro,

DOOM 3 will mostly likely be linear, as can be inferred from various interviews with the developers. Thus, replayability would be limited. And we all know that replayability is an important aspect of gameplay as a whole. HL 2, on the other hand, will not have scripted events, but instead, aims to exploit some revolutionary AI code for in game (adverserial) events, thus things will probably turn out differently every time the game is played. This greatly enhance its replayability. But then, I'm only judging in terms of SP.

Information about the multiplayer aspect of both games is rather scarce, but I'm certain DOOM 3's MP will be a blast, with great graphics fidelity, intense lighting and shadowing, and incredible game world physics...

[toxicfluff]

I reckon H-L2 will be linear as hell, just like the first one. I think developers are loath to add non-linearity because it means putting a lot of development time into scenarios players may not even come across. Maybe small variations, but I'm betting no considerable amount of freedom, and lots of random wreckage blocking passageways. Apparently DX2 is taking a very non-linear route though, in that the game is really quite short, but has major plot forks and variations in the unfolding of events.

And I dunno about AI, but I don't think it makes for a great game. H-L was an easy game because it had too few enemies, whether they were smart or not. The original Unreal was annoying because you got involved in a mini-deathmatch every time you came across an enemy, with them jumping rolling and ducking all over the place - it took to long to finally put the fuckers down sometimes.

So I dunno. But I really like satanic/otherwordly/unusual kind of settings in games, and general atmosphere, so I'm betting I will like Doom3 more. Especially if the hell portions of the game are well done, I love id's mechanical/organic designs.

I can't wait to play either, really. From the D3 alpha, I think it's going to be the scariest gaming experience ever. I just love the sound - I've never heard such amazing detail in sound effects before. And I loved the original H-L and have faith in Valve as a developer, so I reckon we will get something good.


LordB: I never heard anything about the characters' balance ever being affected in the PCZone preview. Are you sure you didn't get a little loose-tongued there? Because I've never seen anything like this in an FPS yet, and I imagine it would be annoying as hell to slip off of things and fall over etc,

[dsm]

Zoorado said:

IRT Shaviro,

DOOM 3 will mostly likely be linear, as can be inferred from various interviews with the developers. Thus, replayability would be limited. And we all know that replayability is an important aspect of gameplay as a whole. HL 2, on the other hand, will not have scripted events, but instead, aims to exploit some revolutionary AI code for in game (adverserial) events, thus things will probably turn out differently every time the game is played. This greatly enhance its replayability. But then, I'm only judging in terms of SP.

It largely depends on what you see as great gameplay. I hear lots of people insinuating that Doom 3's gameplay will suck . obviously they have a different taste in gameplay than I have.

As far as linearity goes, I seem to remember reading an interview with an idder, who said that you will be able to make choices in the game. Remember the scene where the player hides from a Hell knight in the E3 demo? In the final game, you'll be able to decide whether to attack it or hide from it and risk meeting it again at a later point in the level - that doesn't sound like Doom 3 will be totally linear - maybe in level design, but certainly not in gameplay.

As for the rest of the gameplay - killing stuff in HL was pretty boring for me: the enemies barely flinched when you shot at them most of the time and their death animations were not particularly satisfactory for the most part. If this feel is retained in Hl 2, then I'm gonna have to say that I will find Doom 3's gameplay much more appealing, no matter how interactive HL 2's gameplay will be.

Interaction is, after all, nothing but temporary fun - it's cool the first couple of times you try it out, but then it becomes predictable and boring. Killing stuff on the other hand, can make the fun factor last forever if it is done right, which I'm afraid is an extreme rarity.
I'm fervently hoping that Doom 3 will be the first game since Doom 2 to truly make the killing feel really great and satisfying - what I've seen of it so far has strenghtened my belief that D3 might just be that game.

Is it so strange that Doom 3 is pretty much the only upcoming game I'm looking forward to? I'm not expecting HL 2 to appeal to me, because I don't like most of the things that appeal to Half Life fans and I certainly didn't like the original, but I'll try the demo of HL 2 (there had better be one!) and if it manages to convince me that HL 2 is cool and has what I like then I might as well buy it.
But all I can do now is wait.

[LorD BaZTArD]

Ok, So I did goof up that, abit. But the shot I showed you, I think it is apparent. Look at the road. That's bumpmapping. I mean, compared to other things/games using bumpmapping it's not quite so noticable. But that is bump-mapping IMO. Eli Vance's beard is bumpapping, the detail close up on Alyx and other other characters is bumpmapped too.

Also, ToxicFluff: It's in the PCZoneUK scans. Page 3. If you don't have the full scan yet, It starts here http://www.worldoverclockers.com/HL2/PCZone_UK_High_Res_Page_1.jpg It's a high res scan. 12 Pages. It is a good read. Page 1 seems to be cut off, but I don't think it has anything usefull.

DSM, I wouldn't call that non-linear, not really, it provides you with a detour, but it's basically still linear

personally though, I like doom, I like half-life. Both games are great games and I think both new ones will, in my opinion. Really, we know very little about how either game plays at the moment, so you can safely ignore any idiot who thinks he's played either game and can tell you how they'll play. Wait and see :D

[Zoorado]

The only way bumpmapping could be verified is via the presence of shadows. In DOOM 3, every bump on the bump maps casts a shadow onto itself, as well as a portion of its immediate vicinity. This is not apparent in HL 2's screenshots. The shadows cast on the pavement seem too smooth to convince me of the rough floor. Looks more like photorealistic high-res textures to me. However, I'll admit that Eli seems to have bump maps applied to his face, showing off his wrinkles and stuff.

However, I don't think the graphics in both games are at all similar. For eye-candy alone, DOOM 3 easily surpasses HL 2.
The difference is apparent when you compare this http://doom3.ingame.de/articles/pics/screenshots/1.jpg
to this http://www.worldoverclockers.com/HL2/PCZone_UK_High_Res_Page_10.jpg

If you wanna argue about things like scalibility, I can't refute you, but the time just isn't ripe yet. The talk about DOOM 3 needing a super-computer to run just isn't true. Considering Carmack is great at optimising game engines, I wouldn't bet otherwise.

[LorD BaZTArD]

Well, ok, It actually might be a high-res texture on that pavement, It does seem to look a little bit more than just a texture though. I think that both games look very good. While Doom 3 is definately better looking of the engines, HL2 can still do some impressive looking areas IMO. I think it actually has to to with the atmosphere they are trying to convey, than the capabilities of the graphics engines.

I do agree with you on what Doom3 will most likely be able to run on. Most people will probably upgrade for D3, me included, but if carmack says the game will run on roughly on a 700-900mhz machine, I'm inclined to beleive him. I just don't think that a machine that low spec will do either of the games justice.

[Zoorado]

Well, yeah, agree with ya there. It all boils down to a matter of style. :) I look forward to seeing what DOOM 3's outdoor area(s) will look like. id will most probably employ the use of projected textures as shadows, instead of hard-edged stencil volumes. The soft shadow in the official "Pinky" shot looks gorgeous. I figure it would be breathtaking in motion, coupled with stencil shadows. Maybe at this year's E3?

[Shaviro]

Is it just me or do these game magazines make more out of HL2 than it is? I don't recall them being this happy about a game. Look at this:

WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL?

You need to ask? Oh ok...
Life-Like characters
Stunning physic and graphic engines
Utterly immersive and beautifully cinematic
Incredible AI
50 terrifying enemies
Look, just read the preview will you?

It's not like that list contains anything mindboggling...
Maybe it's just me, but are they giving HL2 a push in the 'right' direction? What money can't buy...

[Fredrik]

Geez, Shaviro, seriously, what've you got against HL2? Magazines hype all games, and I mean, the magazines use superlatives when they write about Doom 3, so it's not like there's a conspiracy against it.

[Shaviro]

Fredrik said:

Geez, Shaviro, seriously, what've you got against HL2? Magazines hype all games, and I mean, the magazines use superlatives when they write about Doom 3, so it's not like there's a conspiracy against it.

I have nothing against HL2, I can't have anything against it as it's not been released yet. Is it a crime to not think it sounds promising? All I'm saying is that these magazines are VERY pleased with HL2.

[Fredrik]

Like I said, magazines are very pleased with all upcoming games except the obviously crappy ones. Hyping stuff is important for getting readers. In the case of Half-Life 2, they have a good reason for doing it (the first HF is one of the best FPS games of all time). It's not like Doom 3 doesn't get its own share of attention for the sole fact that it's a sequel.

[Shaviro]

Fredrik said:

Like I said, magazines are very pleased with all upcoming games except the obviously crappy ones. Hyping stuff is important for getting readers. In the case of Half-Life 2, they have a good reason for doing it (the first HF is one of the best FPS games of all time). It's not like Doom 3 doesn't get its own share of attention for the sole fact that it's a sequel.

Doom 3 is not a sequel.

[Fredrik]

Shaviro said:

Doom 3 is not a sequel.

Technically, it is, since it's called Doom '3' and not Doom: Revisited.

[Shaviro]

Fredrik said:

Technically, it is, since it's called Doom '3' and not Doom: Revisited.

No. The content is what makes it a sequel and not the name.

[Fredrik]

You think people will think it's a remake when they read Doom 3? Of course not. Whether they are wrong or not.

Besides, it's not like people care about the story in Doom since all games are basically about killing stuff.

[Dark Fox]

DooM3 is the retelling of DooM

[Shaviro]

Fredrik said:

You think people will think it's a remake when they read Doom 3? Of course not. Whether they are wrong or not.

uh... I think most people are aware it's a remake.

[Fredrik]

Shaviro said:

uh... I think most people are aware it's a remake.

It's based on an existing franchise and is therefore enough of a sequel for everybody to write sequel, which is what they're already doing.

[Shaviro]

Fredrik said:

It's based on an existing franchise and therefore enough of a sequel for everybody to write sequel, which is what they're already doing.

What does that have to do with anything? It doesn't make it a sequel.

[Fredrik]

Shaviro said:

What does that have to do with anything? It doesn't make it a sequel.

Alright, let me rephrase my post:

Like I said, magazines are very pleased with all upcoming games except the obviously crappy ones. Hyping stuff is important for getting readers. In the case of Half-Life 2, they have a good reason for doing it (the first HF is one of the best FPS games of all time). It's not like Doom 3 doesn't get its own share of attention for the sole fact that it's based on an existing franchise.

Now can you argue against that without getting stuck with the trifles?

[Dark Fox]

Even though it seems your powers of commmon sense lack in the normal to strong department, I will attempt to break it down into moron digestable lingo.

Doom3 is NOT, repeating NOT a Sequel..


Now, concentrate as hard as you can and THINK, I know it hurts, but just do it.. Just becuase its NAMED DooM3, does not make it a sequel.

It HAS been confirmed by several sources that it is indeed, brace yourself, a REMAKE of the orginal DooM..

If you finally rub those two brain cells hybernating in your head together, and UNDERSTAND what I just said then good.. you passed and therefore will not feel the wrath of Darwin's law of Survival..