The /newstuff Chronicles #126

[deathz0r]

netnomad312 said:

That's not a "puzzle." That's "torture." It also proves that some people can work at wad editing for a while and still make total shit wads.

You're gonna love a few levels in Mock 2 then.

Could someone point me to ZDoom beta, please? I lost the file when my hard drive was screwed a couple weeks ago, and I'd like to play System Vices in ZDoom's clarity. For now I'm just gonna copy it to my laptop which has all my Doom stuff.

http://zdoom.notgod.com/lars

[deathz0r]

Tormentor667 said:

I don't agree because I don't like some special sibjectivity of some reviewers. Sometimes they are only writing their own thoughts and feelings about a wad and sometimes they don't honor the effort which was taken into a wad.

Our own thoughts? Are you stupid? Every single review that exists is coming from what the reviewer thinks of that thing, not what everybody else thinks. Go read a few newspapers that have movie reviews. They only display their own thoughts.

If this is set (not reviewing bad newstuff) the reviewers should be changed or they should change something on their way of reviewing wads. Then, reviews should be an objectiv feedback of wads!

Objective feedback? I try to tell people what's in the level, I try to tell people what they're going to expect, I try to tell people how detailed it is. Sure, I might throw in a few personal signs of hatred (check that crappy Egyptian themed wad for example, what's it called again?) sometimes, but we try our hardest to tell you (the public) what to download and not download. If you have a problem with it, go address us in private. I'll be happy to talk to you through email (which btw is deathz0r@zdaemon.org, not deathz0r@zdaemon.com anymore) if you have any concerns about my reviews. I like to see someone who has the balls to complain to me in private, rather than screaming out bullshit to the public.

As for us being replaced, you find me people who are willing to do it. AndrewB quit, Liam quit, think about back then. Do you have the mental capicity to go through assloads of crap levels and illegal rereleases on a weekly basis just in hope to find something above average? Believe it or not, it is a lot harder to review levels than what you think. We volunteered to review, we were not forced.

[Tormentor667]

Don't talk shit! Every week someone else complains about the way some of you review wads. There are a lot of real crappy wads and seldom you can find high quality wads in the newstuff but between these two peaks you can find a lot of wads in which the creator has put in a lot of effort. Some of them are rather good, some of them almost reach top wad's quality.

My problem is not, that you write your subjectiv opionion in a review, my problem is that you forget sometimes the objectiv part which is essential if you want to leave the reader enough room to create his own opinion. You should not forget, that your reviews are based on a website with high prestige in the community and sometimes this fact is exploited (right english word?!) by the reviewers.

Conclusion: More objectivity, less subjectivity to leave the reader more room!

[deathz0r]

Tormentor667 said:

Don't talk shit! Every week someone else complains about the way some of you review wads. There are a lot of real crappy wads and seldom you can find high quality wads in the newstuff but between these two peaks you can find a lot of wads in which the creator has put in a lot of effort. Some of them are rather good, some of them almost reach top wad's quality.

Usually it's the author of the wad that got a bad review, mainly because they're embarrased about their wad receiving so much crap.

You should not forget, that your reviews are based on a website with high prestige in the community and sometimes this fact is exploited (right english word?!) by the reviewers.

Conclusion: More objectivity, less subjectivity to leave the reader more room!

If we got paid to do this, we would be trying a lot more harder than what we are doing now. None of us (this sentence referring to all of the staff by the way) see a dime from this. We do all of this on free will. We can choose to quit anytime that we want to, and none of us are complaining about the criticism that we recieve. And how are we exploiting Doomworld's prestige? We are merely doing our job. I challenge you to take over our position. No wait, I dare you.

[NiGHTMARE]

Job said:

Heh, yeah, I was messing around one day and I made this -- I couldn't remember the key combination to get it, so I saved it to a .txt file so I could use it when necessary. Heh.

I take it you've never heard of charmap.exe? :)

[Tormentor667]

deathz0r said:

No wait, I dare you.

Fine, I'll accept your challenge. I will do one newstuff chronicles review as far as the Doomworld staff agrees and as far as you tell me what I have to do. Maybe after that you will see that there's another way to do reviews or I will believe you that it's really not that easy!

[Ichor]

...foresees at least another three heh# wadfiles for next week...

[Ultraviolet]

Uh... not once have I read a review of a wad here, downloaded it, and then gone "OMG WTF THAT REVIEWAR SI TEH STUPED!!1" I am quite satisfied with The /newstuff Chronicles. It provides me with easy linkage to the new wads and something to read to occupy a few minutes I'd rather not spend doing something else stupid.

One of these days maybe I'll make something that ends up reviewed on t/nc. If the reviewer thinks it sucks, so be it. Now, since a lot of us go by the same standards when we judge a wad, I'd say "this map sucks because it's so brown" isn't all that bad. You see, that sentence is just a way of summing up:

"Quake was very brown. This map is similar to Quake in that it is visually un-stimulating -- any human that percieves according to common, proven human aesthetic values, knowing that the eye craves variation, or at least contrast in order to distinguish one object from another, would agree -- and therefore even if it did have great monster/item placement it would be hard to remain interested in it, but it doesn't even have that. Thus, I must conclude that this map should only get a rating of [something low]."

Now, was that all that bad? The reason a reviewer doesn't have to explain all that is because it has been said soooooo many times before that one could safely assume that most of us have heard and understand why the reviewer thinks "it sucks cuz' it's brown." Same goes for maps with too many/few monsters/ammo/items, too much/little detail, and what the hell ever else.

Oh, and AndrewB's and Liam's reviews I liked just fine, but IIRC they left because of petty fighting over their review styles like this.

[Brad_tilf]

deathz0r said:

Believe it or not, it is a lot harder to review levels than what you think. We volunteered to review, we were not forced.

I could have quoted all that Deathz0r said but I'm sure you all read it. I just want to mention my agreement (as a reviewer) that reviewing levels is ALOT of work. You all know that I review tons of wads on Doom Wad Station and I have to turn away a fair share of stuff that comes my way which is total garbage. These guys review everything, good and bad, which is really cool. I don't. If the wad is complete garbage I'll just tell the author to go back to the drawing board.
As far as personal opinion. I've noticed that the reviewers, for the most part, do a fair job here. but personal opinion is what reviewing is all about. Once you learn a reviewers personal tastes then you'll know if he's the type of reviewer you generally agree with and thus take his opinions to heart or if he isn't the type you generally agree with and you ignore him because you usually don't agree with his opinions.

[Hyena]

Tormentor667 said:

I think someone is very jealous of my work. Nevermind, this has nothing to do with me and my wads, I just think if a reviewer doesn't like a special way a wad is created (puzzles or a special theme like starwars), maybe he says: "This wad isn't worth downloading because I don't like it"

To review a wad is not just something you can do in a few minutes, you need a lot of experience and you also need a lot of knowledge concerning the objectivity of a wad. On professional sites (and magazines), reviewers get paid because they are good and understand how to tell the reader everything about a wad, the good and the bad things without giving a personal opinion to it. Have you ever read in your local "PC GAMES MAGAZINE" that a reviewer says "I don't like the wad because it's all that brown. I don't like brown textures so this map sucks, don't play it"

What the hell are you talking about? You think I gave bad reviews because a wad was created with puzzles? I already explained. I love puzzles. Not stupid puzzles that take you an hour that make no sense, like some of these wads. And the star wars theme? I never once attacked that.
And name me one review where I berated a wad because I don't like brown textures.

Your point seems to be that people are taking their personal preference and using it to insult wads. That's different than having an opinion.
If I think a wad is bad, that's my opinion. If I think it's bad because it's based on Quake, that's preference.
I don't like Quake, but I rather liked Qdoom. That's because I'm open-minded about different genres and special themes. However, that doesn't mean I don't have an opinion.
If I think a wad has a lousy health balance (like 100 soulspheres and 60 hell knights), that's what I'm going to tell people. I'm not going to completely water down my opinion just to reassure the author.

Every week someone complains about reviews, that's going to happen most of the time no matter what you do.

And in fact, most of the time I put way too much effort into trying to be fair it's certainly not worth the complete animosity I get for it.
So in short, yes, do some reviews. I would be happy to split the workload with one other person. Just don't be surprised if someone complains about your reviews even though you're clearly more qualified and understanding then we are.

[toxicfluff]

Well, personally I'm in favour of harsher reviews. I don't get too many wads these days, so if I do get one I want it to be good. And having more strict reviews helps to ensure better quality, at least in the areas which most people agree on such as detail/aesthetics.

[Cyb]

Tormentor667 said:

I think someone is very jealous of my work. Nevermind, this has nothing to do with me and my wads, I just think if a reviewer doesn't like a special way a wad is created (puzzles or a special theme like starwars), maybe he says: "This wad isn't worth downloading because I don't like it"

Bahaha, dude you have the biggest fucking ego I have ever seen, and not only do you have an ego, you have an ego about maps you make for a game that's almost ten years old. Due to said ego, it's obvious that comment was directed right at me because I found flaws in your precious tnt2 when I reviewed it. However if you were to actually read my review of it (here) you'll note I stated blatant FACTS about the map. I said it was all brown but I also constantly said it was a matter of personal opinion. Unless the reader is a complete moron, they should know that my personal opinion (not like maps that are entirely brown) does not have to be their personal opinion as well. Obviously you completly failed to see past my initial brown comments though and never focused on the rest of the review which was not a bad review.

To review a wad is not just something you can do in a few minutes, you need a lot of experience and you also need a lot of knowledge concerning the objectivity of a wad. On professional sites (and magazines), reviewers get paid because they are good and understand how to tell the reader everything about a wad, the good and the bad things without giving a personal opinion to it. Have you ever read in your local "PC GAMES MAGAZINE" that a reviewer says "I don't like the wad because it's all that brown. I don't like brown textures so this map sucks, don't play it"

Reviews are all based on opinions. I have read many, many reviews of movies, games etc etc where I totally disagreed with the reviewer. They state facts, yes, but they also throw in their personal opinion because *gasp* that's what reviews are. What determines if something is bad or not? I mean, one person could love something and another person hate the very same thing. I highly doubt you'd get the same exact review out of both of them.

As for people complaining about bad reviews, it's simply because the map author feels the need to explain the shortcomings of his/her map the reviewer pointed out, often with some sort fo extreme vendetta. If you read over my review of your map, for instance I never once said that it shouldn't be played. I said it was brown and ugly and repetive (which is was, mainly refering to the crate rooms which were identical aisde from the placement of a few crates), but I also recommended it for play.

The problem is that nobody here seems to be able to take criticism, which is really what the whole 'upset about the review' thing comes down to. That or they think the reviewer's word is final and that nobody will ever play their map or whatever, I don't know. If you think reviwers sit there and say "man, I'm gonna give this guys map a bad review just to piss him off and for no other real reason" you are sadly mistaken.

At any rate, the newstuff threads are by far the most popular news items, and I personally look forward to them each week and I like to think other people do as well (could be wrong, but hey). Alright that's it.

[Russell_P]

Cyb said:

....the newstuff threads are by far the most popular news items, and I personally look forward to them each week and I like to think other people do as well (could be wrong, but hey). Alright that's it.

Nope, you're not wrong. The newstuff reviews are highlight of the DW week in my opinion.

It's a shame the newstuff thread becomes little more than a weekly slanging match. I personally think that on the whole the reviewers do a good and balanced job. A lot of work goes into these reviews and I think many complainers fail to realise that.

My advice to reviewers; Keep doing the job you're doing. If any grudge bearing author posts a moaning message, simply ignore it. I know that's easier said than done, but every week we see people getting drawn into these pointless arguements and it gets kinda tedious.

My advice to authors; Lose the ego. Not everyone will think your wad is the bestest wad ever. Take the criticisim constructively. You uploaded your wad to /newstuff so you made it available to the reviewers. If you don't want people to possibly criticise your work then don't upload it to the archive, go stick it on a website instead.

[Tai]

Hyena said:

First off, I rather like puzzles except when they're stupid. Examples of stupid puzzles:

1. There are 128 switches in a room. One of them opens the only door, the others do nothing. Have fun spending an hour figuring out which is which.
2. A wad has about 60 medium-sized rooms. One of them has a blue key in it. Another room has an unmarked wall that requires a blue key. All of the walls are hidden from automap so you can't tell which one it is.
3. A switch lowers a lift for about 4 seconds. The lift is three rooms away and just far enough that you can't even hear the sound. Not only do you have to figure out what the switch actually does, you have to do it in 4 seconds without any clue.

There. I did you the service of actually taking your concern seriously even though you're clearly unable to support any argument without your 6-word vocabulary of petty insults and complete lack of coherent thought.

lol...60 medium-sized rooms of a wad.. and 128 switches in a room...if I didn't look at these wads yet, Hyena, I'd say you were exaggerating. Same thing goes for the lift that stays down for you for about 4 seconds, but THIS puzzle I've actaully saw. Ok, fine, I'll find the wads with these descriptions and see if I agree. :)

[pritch]

In fairness to hyena, some of those puzzles are pretty bent.

The odd puzzle is ok, but entire levels of them just isn't Doom. Remember the old Doom blurb? This is an action-oriented slugathon damnit!!

[Tormentor667]

Cyb said:

Bahaha, dude you have the biggest fucking ego I have ever seen, and not only do you have an ego, you have an ego about maps you make for a game that's almost ten years old. Due to said ego, it's obvious that comment was directed right at me because I found flaws in your precious tnt2 when I reviewed it. However if you were to actually read my review of it (here) you'll note I stated blatant FACTS about the map. I said it was all brown but I also constantly said it was a matter of personal opinion. Unless the reader is a complete moron, they should know that my personal opinion (not like maps that are entirely brown) does not have to be their personal opinion as well. Obviously you completly failed to see past my initial brown comments though and never focused on the rest of the review which was not a bad review.

[b]

Reviews are all based on opinions. I have read many, many reviews of movies, games etc etc where I totally disagreed with the reviewer. They state facts, yes, but they also throw in their personal opinion because *gasp* that's what reviews are. What determines if something is bad or not? I mean, one person could love something and another person hate the very same thing. I highly doubt you'd get the same exact review out of both of them.

As for people complaining about bad reviews, it's simply because the map author feels the need to explain the shortcomings of his/her map the reviewer pointed out, often with some sort fo extreme vendetta. If you read over my review of your map, for instance I never once said that it shouldn't be played. I said it was brown and ugly and repetive (which is was, mainly refering to the crate rooms which were identical aisde from the placement of a few crates), but I also recommended it for play.

The problem is that nobody here seems to be able to take criticism, which is really what the whole 'upset about the review' thing comes down to. That or they think the reviewer's word is final and that nobody will ever play their map or whatever, I don't know. If you think reviwers sit there and say "man, I'm gonna give this guys map a bad review just to piss him off and for no other real reason" you are sadly mistaken.

At any rate, the newstuff threads are by far the most popular news items, and I personally look forward to them each week and I like to think other people do as well (could be wrong, but hey). Alright that's it.

Long comment, a lot of the stuff you are talking about is absolutely right. Maybe I'm really just pissed because this one review (isn't all that bad if you concern how much effort I put into the wad) but the reason why I started this again is because of the "Dawn:Prelude" review. In my eyes, it's amazing. If you want to create something like this, you have to work hard, long and much. And then, is it fair, that someone critizises that MAP09 is an almost exact recreation of Dark Forces Map01?! Take a look at Hyenas review. 50% of his review is talking about that but is this really the major point of the wad?! I don't think so.
Nevermind, I read your stuff (yes I really did, some may think I answer without thinking about other replies :P) and as I said, a lot of it is true and so I will look at some of you reviewers in another way.

BTW, I have big ego, so what?! I compare my work to other's work and so I know where I can classify myself in a "quality of wads - list" and it's far above the average! Oh, and don't forget, it was you who called me "master of all that is doom level design" ;)

[The Flange Peddler]

I don't see why a reviewer should give something a good review just because someone 'put a lot of effort into it'.

A shit level that took an author a year to make is still a shit level.

[Use]

I think the bottom line is if you can't take a little criticism get off the internet.

[Epyo]

Use3D said:

I think the bottom line is if you can't take a little criticism get off the internet.

true dat.

Job said:

Heh, yeah, I was messing around one day and I made this -- I couldn't remember the key combination to get it, so I saved it to a .txt file so I could use it when necessary. Heh.

alt+0222 = Þ
alt+0254 = þ

I prefer =þ

[netnomad312]

deathz0r said:

http://zdoom.notgod.com/lars

Yes, yes, that's those .cab files. I need the installer...

[Ubik]

Use3D said:

I think the bottom line is if you can't take a little criticism get off the internet.

Quoted for emphasis.

[pritch]

Tormentor667 said:

I don't agree because I don't like some special sibjectivity of some reviewers. Sometimes they are only writing their own thoughts and feelings about a wad and sometimes they don't honor the effort which was taken into a wad.

If this is set (not reviewing bad newstuff) the reviewers should be changed or they should change something on their way of reviewing wads. Then, reviews should be an objectiv feedback of wads!

All reviews are subjective. You think film critics all work their ass off to be objective?

A wad produces an opinion in the reviwer and if that's not a good opinion and he states that then too bad. Everyone can play teh wad and make they're own mind up.

Besides, I made it clear like, sooo back in the day we weren't gonna have any arguments about reviewers anymore, just different opinons on the wads put forward.

[fraggle]

I think the real question is, "who reviews the reviewers?"

[The Ultimate DooMer]

flamewar

I'm not going to get involved in it, so I'm gonna post some more traditional comments:

Dark Fate is another good map - a true Inferno emulator. But how anyone can call it Hell Revealed is beyond me. Even for a lesser skilled player, there isn't enough monsters for it to be compared to HR.

The speedmaps are interesting - 3 completely different designs, sizes and texturing themes (and I've yet to review one). Should've been a bit tougher, though (IMO).

netnomad312 said:

It also proves that some people can work at wad editing for a while and still make total shit wads.

Certainly can. One of my Mock 2 maps took 4 days to complete...

[Fletcher`]

netnomad312 said:

Yes, yes, that's those .cab files. I need the installer...

Just unzip them into your zdoom folder.

[netnomad312]

ravage said:

Just unzip them into your zdoom folder.

I don't HAVE a Zdoom folder. This is an essentially blank hard drive I'm working on. It already has my other Doom programs (Doom95, WadAuthor, Wintex). Last time I got the installer with just Zdoom.exe and Zdoom.wad, and one other file. Then I just put them in the Doom95 folder and they run fine. But that reminds me what thread you told me about it in. I'm gonna go there now.

Forget I said anything. I'm going to play System Vices now.

EDIT: Crap. Somebody deleted the link! I still need the file now. Damnit...

[Fletcher`]

ravage said:

zdoom.notgod.com/lars

[netnomad312]

Yeeeeeah. That's the bunch of .cab files that I'm not looking for. I'm looking for a .zip file with zdoom.exe, zdoom.wad, and... I think it was fmod.dll or something. Where do I get that?

[Cyb]

Personally through the years and many (many) maps I've made, I have always held comments from people who didn't like them in the highest regard since focusing on the flaws they point out is an excellent way to improve maps. As long as their reasoning isn't something like "I LIKE IMPS BUT THIS MAP ONLY HAD SIX OF THEM AND IT NEEDS TO ADD 27 MORE TO NOT SUCK!!"

yeah, but anyways, what it really comes down to is making maps that you like (at least at the time you release it, heh) and having some fun doing it. If other people happen to like it that's an excellent added bonus too.

Edit: Netnomad, you want the highest numbered .cab file (.cab is a compression format just like .zip, only with better compression hehe), which at the moment is 47.cab That contains all the files you listed.

[Fletcher`]

netnomad312 said:

Yeeeeeah. That's the bunch of .cab files that I'm not looking for. I'm looking for a .zip file with zdoom.exe, zdoom.wad, and... I think it was fmod.dll or something. Where do I get that?

IN THE CABS. (that's why you got the link)

It should be 47.cab