Doom 3 weapons

[Naked Snake]

dr_qui said:

look people, what we want is a semi automatic pistol (3 shot burst switchable) and a chaingun similar to serious sams.

1) select fire pistols = ass IMO

2) Serious Sam didn't have a chaingun, it had a minigun, two different things, and I'd rather have a Chaingun similar to the Quake 2 chaingun

[Tetzlaff]

BBG said:

Serious Sam didn't have a chaingun, it had a minigun, two different things, and I'd rather have a Chaingun similar to the Quake 2 chaingun

In the world of FPS games Chaingun, Minigun, and Gatling Gun describe the same type of weapon: a heavy machine gun (hitscan projectiles) with a rotating drum of 6 or more barrels. Often has spin up and spin down delays and rather poor accuracy.

I think the handy Q2 style chaingun should be reserved for the Quake series... in Doom3 I want a really heavy feeling chaingun.

[Ultraviolet]

Thanks for reviving a month-or-more old thread...

Tetzlaff said:

In the world of

Using that as a precursor to your argument defines it as conditional and thus invalidates it. Even sticking to that condition, "in the world of" FPS games, the weapons are intended to be simulations of real-life weapons.

A Gatling gun is a gun of the type created by a man named Gatling. You didn't thing "gattle" was a verb, and that a Gatling gun "gattles," did you? Gatling installed four rifles -- full rifles, not a modified assembly of rifle components -- on a hand-cranked machine that would fire and move the bolt of the rifles. This machine was mounted like artillery because it was too large to be used by infantry. He later went on to improve on this clumsy method, but still, had this been used by the US Army in its skirmishes against the natives, even in its original state it would have been proven as the ultimate bullet-firing weapon of the time. They say that Custer's battle at Little Horn could have been won if he had elected to take as few as three of Gatling's guns along. (The fort that Custer departed from before the battle had many more than that in storage. They were never used, doomed to be in storage until they were deemed obsolete.)

A "chaingun" sounds to me like it should involve a chain somewhere, heh. Honestly I don't know what a "chaingun" is supposed to be, but there is a difference.

A "minigun" is a different thing entirely. I'll leave clarifications on that to someone else who has their facts in order.

[Tetzlaff]

Ultraviolet said:

Using that as a precursor to your argument defines it as conditional and thus invalidates it. Even sticking to that condition, "in the world of" FPS games, the weapons are intended to be simulations of real-life weapons.

No, a good game doesn´t try to simulate real stuff, a good game creates it´s own reality. I´m totally bored by so-called realistic weapons in games (like in all the tactical shooters), I much more enjoy futuristic weaponry like in the Quake and Unreal series. Those weapons are partially based on real life weapons (shotguns, machineguns etc.) but they are designed with with gameplay aspects in mind and thus don´t simulate real-life weapons.

A Gatling gun is a gun of the type created by a man named Gatling. You didn't thing "gattle" was a verb, and that a Gatling gun "gattles," did you? ...

Yeah I knew it´s the inventors name :) Also saw that thing in Western movies. But thanks for the small history excursion.
That type of weapon I mean, heavy machine gun with a rotating drum of six barrels, what is the general term for that technique?

And btw does the verb "gattle" exists or did you just made it up? Never heard that, but that means nothing because english isn´t my first language...

[EllipsusD]

Ultraviolet said:
Using that as a precursor to your argument defines it as conditional and thus invalidates it.

Sorry, but that has got to be the stupidest things I've ever heard. When it comes to stating things for the purposes of a debate or a discussion, there are very few things that are universal. Thus you have to put limitations on the scope of what you are saying. "In the world of FPS games" is a perfectly valid statement meaning that the things he says are limited to the realm of FPS games, and have nothing to do with the way things really work. Now, regardless of whether his observations following that are correct or not is up for debate, but you cannot simply invalidate an arguement because certain perameters are set on it.

[Ultraviolet]

Tetzlaff said:

No, a good game doesn´t try to simulate real stuff, a good game creates it´s own reality.

I didn't say a GOOD game. MOST FPS games, though, do simulate real-life weaponry, or at least the assault rifles.

That type of weapon I mean, heavy machine gun with a rotating drum of six barrels, what is the general term for that technique?

I suppose it might be a minigun.

And btw does the verb "gattle" exists or did you just made it up? Never heard that, but that means nothing because english isn´t my first language...

Heh, yes, I made that up as far as I know. I was going on the assumption that many people might actually think that Gatling guns do "gattle," and was asking if that's what you thought.

[Ultraviolet]

EllipsusD said:

Sorry, but that has got to be the stupidest things I've ever heard. When it comes to stating things for the purposes of a debate or a discussion, there are very few things that are universal. Thus you have to put limitations on the scope of what you are saying. "In the world of FPS games" is a perfectly valid statement meaning that the things he says are limited to the realm of FPS games, and have nothing to do with the way things really work. Now, regardless of whether his observations following that are correct or not is up for debate, but you cannot simply invalidate an arguement because certain perameters are set on it.

Uh, you missed it. BBG's argument was a general one, and Tetzlaff's was specific, and therefore was not a valid counter to BBG's statement. It didn't refute anything BBG said at all. It was a valid statement, but not a valid argument, which is what I thought it was intended to be but failed.

[EllipsusD]

Ultraviolet said:
Uh, you missed it. BBG's argument was a general one, and Tetzlaff's was specific, and therefore was not a valid counter to BBG's statement. It didn't refute anything BBG said at all. It was a valid statement, but not a valid argument, which is what I thought it was intended to be but failed.

I appologize to you then, as I did miss that. Since that is the case, then you're right in what you said, and I feel stupid for only half paying attention.

[Naked Snake]

OMG, a civilized flame-fest! :)

[Ultraviolet]

BBG said:

OMG, a civilized flame-fest! :)

BBG wants me to feel the guilt trip.
Sorry Ellipsus, Tetzlaff. I won't do it again!

[The_Aeromaster]

Tetzlaff said:

And btw does the verb "gattle" exists or did you just made it up? Never heard that, but that means nothing because english isn´t my first language...

Well, fuck this, it's a word now.

[dsm]

dr_qui said:

look people, what we want is a semi automatic pistol (3 shot burst switchable) and a chaingun similar to serious sams.

Semi automatic pistol: No, that's just dumb and redundant as long as you have the machinegun - the pistol is supposed to be a weak weapon that forces you on retreat. Also, I know for sure that Doom 3 won't have alt fire/switchable fire modes, because iD has stated that there won't.

As long as the pistol is more than capable of putting down the weakest enemies like the old one was, I'll be happy with it.

Chaingun: I always thought the serious sam chaingun was ridiculously huge, not to mention long, but the fact that you hold it from above (like miniguns in action movies) is cool.

That's also the way it is with the Doom 3 commandos (holding it from above) - I am also rather unhappy about the one shown in that new video: barrels are too thick (like with the chainguns in all the other iD games) - they should be more like the RtCW venom gun's barrels (but without those flash hiders at the muzzle of each barrel) - and there's no visible 'evidence' of it being held from above.

Some people say that it'll work like the Q2 one - they of course can't be sure of that until they've actually tried it and I definitely hope they're wrong. I want it to work more like the RtCW Venom Gun (best chaingun ever in terms of the way it works), but without overheating, and maybe with an even higher fire rate - the Q2 chaingun was badass for its time and still cool, but it's just so much more unrealistic and less fun than something venom gun-esque.

[wasted]

I guess the common scientific name for chainguns\miniguns is Gatling Automatic Cannons

If you want to see some modern real weapons of that type check that:
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/minigun/specs.htm

Some of the GACs may have 3 or 4 or more barrels (the russian GACs use 4 and 5 barreled types).

The name Minigun appeared in the same way as name Volcano - its just a name of the model by GE...

[The_Aeromaster]

I'm convinced that development is taking so much time, even though the game looks like it's near completion, because Id is going back to change certain things based on fan reactions from the screenshots, videos, and even how the alpha plays.

What that says about the chaingun, I dunno. But I know I'll be satisfied.

[dsm]

The_Aeromaster said:

I'm convinced that development is taking so much time, even though the game looks like it's near completion, because Id is going back to change certain things based on fan reactions from the screenshots, videos, and even how the alpha plays.

Somehow I doubt that - just a hunch.
I believe it's more likely that they're working on implementing the mp component right and perhaps add little things to the existing maps to make them cooler.

[BlueSonnet]

dr_qui said:

look people, what we want is a semi automatic pistol (3 shot burst switchable) and a chaingun similar to serious sams.

I'm sure we'll have an immoral conduct mod for that.

[Tetzlaff]

The_Aeromaster said:

Well, fuck this, it's a word now.

Like: "gattle - the rattling noise of a firing gatling gun"?! :D

wasted said:

I guess the common scientific name for chainguns\miniguns is Gatling Automatic Cannons

So I can call that weapon type simply Gatling Gun from now on.

dsm said:

Some people say that it'll work like the Q2 one - they of course can't be sure of that until they've actually tried it and I definitely hope they're wrong. I want it to work more like the RtCW Venom Gun (best chaingun ever in terms of the way it works), but without overheating, and maybe with an even higher fire rate - the Q2 chaingun was badass for its time and still cool, but it's just so much more unrealistic and less fun than something venom gun-esque.

Agree, the RtCW Venom Gun was the best concerning the rate of fire and spin-up delay etc.
But I like the beefy look of the chaingun shown in the E3 video, if only it would be held from above, like the Commandos gatling guns.
It isn´t clearly visible in the E3 video, normally I´m expecting to see the players left arm from 1st person view when it´s hold that way. Maybe the model isn´t finshed yet. Anyone else noticed that "thing" at the end of the barrels in the E3 video? What´s that supposed to be?

[dsm]

Tetzlaff said:

Agree, the RtCW Venom Gun was the best concerning the rate of fire and spin-up delay etc.
But I like the beefy look of the chaingun shown in the E3 video, if only it would be held from above, like the Commandos gatling guns.

I agree wholeheartedly - the Commandos' chainguns look totally badass - what I'm against is those thick barrels that I saw in that vid grab. I remember trying to make drawings of cool chaingun, but I was never satisfied with my drawings and I didn't understand what I did wrong, since I was doing them true to the Doom chaingun - then I looked at a pic of a minigun model and noticed that the barrels were thinner and that there's air between them.
I applied this to my drawings and voilá, they suddenly looked more badass - and I of course hoped iD would follow up on this in their future games. They did in RtCW (but ok, it wasn't iD who did that one themselves) - now I'm just concerned with the new Doom chaingun.

Maybe the model isn´t finshed yet. Anyone else noticed that "thing" at the end of the barrels in the E3 video? What´s that supposed to be?

That the model might not be finished yet is my only hope in terms of looks. I believe the 'thing' is some extra detail to make the gun look futuristic and interesting.

[BlueSonnet]

Needless to say i'm looking forward to mowing down bad guys with this new chaingun, though i fear the spinup delay maybe a bit too slow.

While we're on the topic of weapon speed, i'm praying Id aren't stupid enough to have something where big weapons makes your running speed slower like in CS.

[dsm]

BlueSonnet said:

While we're on the topic of weapon speed, i'm praying Id aren't stupid enough to have something where big weapons makes your running speed slower like in CS.

That risk seems pretty nonexistent if you ask me. It's iD software, not Valve software.
Plus, a lot of iD fans are against that kind of realism (we've had discussions about CS realism countless times before) and since iD is listening to their fans this time, they most certainly won't implement that.
Also the fact that it wasn't implemented in RtCW sp is a good sign - they implemented it in mp, but only to balance the gameplay so that certain weapons (venom gun) weren't too superior so that it would make everyone use these "super weapons", but in SP, it wasn't an issue, and most likely, they didn't implement it because they (iD and Gray Matter) knew that it'd suck.
Hell, even Half Life didn't have shit like that although it had so much other realism crap in it.

Afaik, the only realism that iD seems to copy from HL and CS into Doom 3, is the stuff about less accuracy when shooting from a standing position as opposed to shooting while crouching - and that's only a good thing.

[wasted]

dsm said:

I agree wholeheartedly - the Commandos' chainguns look totally badass - what I'm against is those thick barrels that I saw in that vid grab...

same with me... it seems like they shooting 12gauge instead of 5.57 or 7.62...

[The_Aeromaster]

dsm said:

Somehow I doubt that - just a hunch.

You may be right since I'm really only came up with that to make myself feel better.

[dsm]

The_Aeromaster said:

You may be right since I'm really only came up with that to make myself feel better.

Believe me, I feel the same way - there are a few things that I think could've been designed better. But in the end, it's best to accept that you won't get all your wishes fulfilled, because then you won't be as disappointed when the game is finally released.

same with me... it seems like they shooting 12gauge instead of 5.57 or 7.62...

With those barrels, 12 gauge wouldn't even be enough to fill 'em out. These barrels must be firing something larger than 12 gauge if you ask me :-P

Needless to say i'm looking forward to mowing down bad guys with this new chaingun, though i fear the spinup delay maybe a bit too slow.

Ditto, but I hope iD will tweak it and make the spin up delay shorter. I noticed that in videos showing pre-release builds of RtCW, the Venom gun had no spin-up delay at all, while it ended up having a rather slow (but not too slow - it's perfect imo) spin-up delay. If we're lucky, the final version of Doom 3's chaingun will be just fine.

[12ga.]

dsm said:

Believe me, I feel the same way - there are a few things that I think could've been designed better. But in the end, it's best to accept that you won't get all your wishes fulfilled, because then you won't be as disappointed when the game is finally released.

With those barrels, 12 gauge wouldn't even be enough to fill 'em out. These barrels must be firing something larger than 12 gauge if you ask me :-P

Ditto, but I hope iD will tweak it and make the spin up delay shorter. I noticed that in videos showing pre-release builds of RtCW, the Venom gun had no spin-up delay at all, while it ended up having a rather slow (but not too slow - it's perfect imo) spin-up delay. If we're lucky, the final version of Doom 3's chaingun will be just fine.

Yup good old 75mm handheld autocannon lol.....

[Ultraviolet]

Yeesh, can you imagine that, a buckshot-minigun? Use depleted uranium pellets (maybe even teflon coat them) and it'll even be effective against armor. You'd need special shells, though: longer, more powder, at least enough to propell the DU as well as it needs to be propelled. You might need to choke down the barrels to narrow the spread a bit to make it more accurate at range and therefore have more broad military applications... but this thing could shred a person, even a tank, to an unrecognizable mass of pulp or scrap metal -- that is, if you ever found even half of the remains.

[dr_qui]

Anti armour ammo ? try "glaisers" bullets (cop killers) I read somewhere that they have liquid filled tips. 1 SHOT 1 kill indeed.

[12ga.]

dr_qui said:

Anti armour ammo ? try "glaisers" bullets (cop killers) I read somewhere that they have liquid filled tips. 1 SHOT 1 kill indeed.

Yup me and my brother have hollowed out a .303 british round before and put mercury in the tip then refilled the tip with the lead we extracted we shot it at a 4 by 4 and the mercury splashed and blew it clean in half.

[Ultraviolet]

Those would probably be more light armor piercing. That mercury just expands inside the target, but it's really got to get in first. Depleted uranium is extremely heavy. Something with a lot of mass behind it takes a lot of friction to slow down, and that's what makes depleted uranium pierce armor.

[dsm]

Regardless of all that speculation on future minugun ammo. My point is quite simple: I want the chaingun to look truly badass, and I feel that it makes it look less cool if it has those thick, thrown-close-together barrels.
And then I don't care how many excuses there are to support the thick "12 gauge" barrels.
Hm, maybe it's an issue of trying to make the chaingun take up less polys...

[Shaviro]

Gattling gun (first generation)
Chaingun (uhm ?)
General Electric Minigun (used in helicopters)
Vulcan cannon (used on harriers and the likes)
Phalanx cannon (used on Aircraft Carriers)