Open areas

[Luzifer]

In the trailer and in all pictures I saw close areas. What about open "Unreal like" areas?

[dsm]

Luzifer said:

In the trailer and in all pictures I saw close areas. What about open "Unreal like" areas?

Doom 3 will be primarily indoors. The only large outdoor areas will be some that you can view through large windows. It's Mars dude, you can't go outside and expect to survive in the open.

[Fredrik]

You'd actually be able to stay alive for a minute or two (maybe more?) on Mars even without a space suit in its atmosphere's current state.

[12ga.]

Fredrik said:

You'd actually be able to stay alive for a minute or two (maybe more?) on Mars even without a space suit in its atmosphere's current state.

yea then you would get co2 toxification.

[Scabbed Angel]

dsm said:

Doom 3 will be primarily indoors. The only large outdoor areas will be some that you can view through large windows. It's Mars dude, you can't go outside and expect to survive in the open.

There will be a number of outdoor levels, needn't worry:

From e3 article from The Daily Telefrag

http://articles.dailytelefrag.com/eng/previews/2002/06/04/doom3/index.php?page=2

"Moreover, according to Jim Dose, DOOM III won't be confined within narrow corridors and rectangular rooms of military base. Did they opt for the outdoor areas and huge sceneries of Mars? "Yes, that's right", - says Jim, - "we plan a number of outdoor levels. I'm not going to reveal you precise number of indoor and outdoor areas. Don't want to spoil the impression. Actually, implementing open-air levels is not our primary purpose. They won't be more than needed, and we are not willing to churn them out just because its flashy these days"."

[Fredrik]

12ga. said:

yea then you would get co2 toxification.

Unless you hold your breath until you suffocate.

[Ichor]

It's also very cold there. Imagine Antarctica in the winter with half of the atmosphere and gravity, and you'll get a good idea of what it's like on Mars are right now.

[dsm]

Scabbed Angel said:

There will be a number of outdoor levels, needn't worry:

From e3 article from The Daily Telefrag

http://articles.dailytelefrag.com/eng/previews/2002/06/04/doom3/index.php?page=2

"Moreover, according to Jim Dose, DOOM III won't be confined within narrow corridors and rectangular rooms of military base. Did they opt for the outdoor areas and huge sceneries of Mars? "Yes, that's right", - says Jim, - "we plan a number of outdoor levels. I'm not going to reveal you precise number of indoor and outdoor areas. Don't want to spoil the impression. Actually, implementing open-air levels is not our primary purpose. They won't be more than needed, and we are not willing to churn them out just because its flashy these days"."

That article is from last year. The info is outdated and they later stated that they had possibly dropped the idea of outdoor areas for reasons they wouldn't go into detail about. They hinted that it was not totally impossible, but they wouldn't count on it.

If there'd be outdoor areas, it'd likely be in Hell, but most likely not on Mars - can't see a reason why the Marine would have to go outside.

[insertwackynamehere]

I think there will be some outdoor stuff, in Doom III, thanks to [cough]Radiation Suits[/cough].

[dsm]

insertwackynamehere# said:

I think there will be some outdoor stuff, in Doom III, thanks to [cough]Radiation Suits[/cough].

Rad suits won't help against freezing cold air and a thin atmosphere. A space suit is the only thing to keep you safe.

[Fredrik]

Ichor said:

It's also very cold there. Imagine Antarctica with half of the atmosphere and gravity, and you'll get a good idea of what it's like on Mars are right now.

Still, Mars is definitely the most habitable planet in the solar system second to Earth. The temperature isn't so bad really, the average temperature near the equator is just a bit below 0°C (and sometimes even goes above it). Compare that to 300°C of sulfuric acid on Venus :)

Also, Mars has a magnetosphere, which would provide some level of protection against the solar wind.

[Scabbed Angel]

Its cold, gravity's not the same, little oxygen, whatever . . . it's a game. you could go outdoors in the first DooM. It was on Phobos yes? The same aspects would apply then. If you walked on lava in real life it wouldn't just drain your health. You'd die, plain and simple. If you were getting chewed on in real life, you'd die of eventual blood loss if not right away from the wounds. That's the thing, it's not REAL. It's a game. Everything is for similated reality and for dramatic and entertainment value. Space (Rad) suits would probably be the most likely option. What other purpose would there be for the marine to wear that suit on a research/science space facility. Not likely just for combat, considering combat would not be a common occurence. I'm sure it would serve a more likely purpose on a Space station. Either way I hope they have outdoor envirments aside from Hell. It's justa part of DooM, man.

[Tetzlaff]

Yeah, no reason to avoid outdoor areas just because of overdone realism aspects. Maybe the UAC terraformed Mars already and it´s like a terran desert...

It´s also limiting the possibilities of cool level design with the new engine when it´s always forced to be indoors and outdoor areas are nothing more then a view out of a window. That would suck.

In the Unreal and Halflife community the rumour of "Doom3 engine can not render outdoor areas and the whole game will consist of cramped, dark corridors" is widespread. But you even can see outdoor areas in the last E3 movie, so yes, there will be some outdoor areas in Doom 3, and of course the engine can do terrain stuff.

[Scabbed Angel]

Tetzlaff said:

It´s also limiting the possibilities of cool level design with the new engine when it´s always forced to be indoors and outdoor areas are nothing more then a view out of a window. That would suck.

Right. Why waste your time rendering an entire outdoor environment if only so you can glance out at it? As far as why a marine would have to go outside... if the game was even mostly in the space station, it would be Halo w/ better graphics called DooM III. I'm not implying that Halo is even a comparison to DooM in its quality or level architecture, just that that would become boring pretty quickly (like in halo). As far a reasoning for it, I'll leave that argument up to the diversity of the plot. I'm sure that'll take care of it.

[insertwackynamehere]

dsm said:

Rad suits won't help against freezing cold air and a thin atmosphere. A space suit is the only thing to keep you safe.

I'm referring to something in old Doom which was so classic they are probably going to do a spin-off of it in Doom III. I was simply using an old Doom item, as an example, even though I know rad suits and space suits are different.

[12ga.]

Ichor said:

It's also very cold there. Imagine Antarctica in the winter with half of the atmosphere and gravity, and you'll get a good idea of what it's like on Mars are right now.

or like i think its +287 degrease celcius in the light

[Fredrik]

12ga. said:

or like i think its +287 degrease celcius in the light

No. Due to the planet's atmosphere, temperature changes are moderate and it'll never get warmer than approximately 0°C. The only temperature extremes are on the cold side - and they aren't awfully bad, just down to -80°C or so during the nights, which is acceptable for human habitation.

[Vegeta]

Quake 3 support nice outdoor areas, I'm sure that DOOM 3 can do it equal or better.

[The Flange Peddler]

I don't think Doom3 will have vast outdoor areas because it seems that the engine cannot handle them. There's a reason why all the levels in the alpha, and all the pic's we have seen are of small, relatively confined areas. And it's not entirely because claustophobic = scary.

The one example of a possible outdoor area in the E3 video is blatenrtly a cutscene, and probably some sort of sky texture.

[insertwackynamehere]

I think that Doom needs outdoor areas. Outdoor areas helped make Doom what it is. Before it, with Wolf3d, it was running around in mazelike rooms, with no feel to them. The sky in Doom helped give you the feeling of space, and was important in the experience.

[EllipsusD]

Well, I'm sure the engine can handle outdoor areas... I'm just not sure if most computers can because of the lighting and such... and even then, from what I've seen of the lighting abilities so far I don't think it's possible to make convincing outdoor lighting. But I could be wrong about that.

As to if there will be outdoor areas or not, I remember there was a mention of at least one possible outdoor area where you would be spit out of an airlock and have a limited amount of time to get back inside, but then again that was at Quakecon which was quite a while ago. It makes you wonder, though, what the promised Hell areas will look like if outdoor type levels are out. I truly hope that the cavelike area present in the video isn't something we'll be traveling through a lot.

[el zee]

Have you noticed how the doom guy looks like he's wearing a space helmet - and how would he survive in doom on phobos and demios they have outside areas.

[Linguica]

Ichor said:

It's also very cold there. Imagine Antarctica in the winter with half of the atmosphere and gravity, and you'll get a good idea of what it's like on Mars are right now.

Try 1% of the atmosphere. There's no way you could survive for more than a few seconds exposed to the elements on Mars.

[Lord FlatHead]

Lots of people have said:

I don't think Doom3 will have vast outdoor areas because it seems that the engine cannot handle them

Says who ? AFAIK, Doom III has no hard limits on how many polygons can be in sight, or how large an area can be before the renderer has trouble drawing it. I'm sure id has devised some ways to illuminate large areas without the need for many costly lights slowing down the scene. I'd say there will be outdoor areas - but nothing excessive. The Mars setting doesn't lend itself well to RTCW-style treks through forests and mountain passes - I think it'll be more like Half-Life or Quake II, with medium-sized outdoor areas breaking up the dark hallways and military installations.

[cloud4me]

I'm sure Doom3 has some out-door levels.
We've aleardy seen out-door lanscape in the early scene of new E3 trailer.

[DaJuice]

I think Flange Peddler is right, it's a limitation of the engine. Large polycounts are the enemy of the Doom3 engine and with small, tight indoor areas you can control how many polygons are revealed to the player. With large outdoor areas you can't do that without making the player feel like he's being intentionally limited, to where he can go or what he can see. You can't draw convincing landscapes that go on and on into the distance, and still look decent up close, without throwing a lot of polys at it. That whole "They won't be more than needed, and we are not willing to churn them out just because its flashy these days" line is bullshit me thinks, the engine just isn't any good at it on todays hardware.

btw, the outdoor area in the E3 vid/alpha leak is not a texture, it's geometry. However, it's not built to scale, does NOT have dynamic lighting like the rest of the game, and it's actually pretty simple once you noclip around the area. Ah well, it was only meant to look good from the window, so all that is forgivable.

[wasted]

The Flange Peddler said:

...all the levels in the alpha...

I havent played Alpha but in the Alpha files you may find sky and some outdoor textures. Also there is lots of outdoor views that are not shown in Alpha.

In both Dooms you might've seen huge distances between structures on the scape of the planet. Of course there will be tunneling connection, but also you can move on your feet on the scape of the planet. I think in some levels you'll be starting from the outside (like in Alien 2 movie where marines entered the base...).

My point is there will be over Mars walking. Hmm, the good idea is that the death will come quikly to marine with a dameged outdoor suit. Damage meter?

What about various vehicles?

[BNA!]

DaJuice said:

btw, the outdoor area in the E3 vid/alpha leak is not a texture, it's geometry. However, it's not built to scale, does NOT have dynamic lighting like the rest of the game, and it's actually pretty simple once you noclip around the area. Ah well, it was only meant to look good from the window, so all that is forgivable.

IIRC it has dynamic lighting - the light just doesn't move, but it is dynamically calculated (= things that move cast shadows).

//switch

Whoever is spreading the rumour that Doom3 wont be able to handle outdoors deserves to get roasted in hell.
The only thing you probably don't want to do are trees with leaves made of polygons all casting individual shadows.

Other thank that feel free to map out whatever your computer can handle - don't give a rat's ass about uneducated rumours spread from HL2 / Unreal communities.

[DaJuice]

Ah, you're probably right about that.
However I really doubt the game is capable of sprawling outdoor areas like in Unreal2, not with decent performance at least.

[deathbringer]

I remember ages ago one of the ID guys was talking about the 'limits' of the engine, and went on about how you wouldnt be able to build a massive area with 20 imps in it today, but in the future people will have 5ghz computers that will run anything, and you'd be able to make, and run, areas like that in the doom 3 editors then