Kama Sutra Demopack [Released!]

[Gusta]

Heh nice news, I found the mm2 VPO immediately, it's funny to have it right on the start place.
Good to hear about map07 Anima.. now map27 (btw. I did 10:40 there but unluckily forgot to record).
Grazza: How did you get to exit in map16? (I couldn't download demo at school) For those interested there FOUR ways to reach an exit place.. :) Originally I knew about two of them, Method found another two.

[Grazza]

Gusta said:

Grazza: How did you get to exit in map16? (I couldn't download demo at school)

In the 1:00 I used the lowering/raising teleporter (the one which is meant to get you to a secret area full of imps) to lift me up directly to the walkway leading round to the exit (i.e. without getting teleported). I'd got there via the bridge packed with demons. I guess a low 0:4x should be the target time with this route.

Really nice map, BTW.

[Anima Zero]

Grazza said:

I had a nasty feeling that I had missed something. I had. Here's a 1:00 (yes Anima, laugh your ass off at that time!) with a major route refinement.

Heh, the even minute demos strike again ^_^! *Proceeds to go laugh for a few minutes at the time :P*

Still, I liked both demos. The 1:00 had some close calls there.

Now then, I did another demo...for map07. Another UV-Max for the level. Just didn't like my 1st cyber+ caco fight where I get the RSK.

Took several attempts (With seemingly nice demos granting me times around 2:39-2:41) to get...a 2:35. Thanks to a stupid caco that moved up to the exit switch, a cyber couldn't teleport up there! ARGH >_<!

But it didn't end there. I tried a few more times...and got a very good time of 2:25. Everything went as planned. I see no mistakes in the demo, so I'm going to say it's my last maxdemo for the level.

I'm pretty sure 2:25 will be as fast I can push it, so if anyone tries to improve it, good luck.

Sending the 2:25 demo to Ops now.

[Gusta]

Grazza: I have to say, that you found a trick I personally haven't known. Congrats! :) I used to think that this ledge is reachable by jump from the upper place where you teleport in.
Btw. What about max on that map?
Anima: 2:25? The time I could never imagine for this map. Excellent work!
Btw. I am gonna begin with building some new map today :)

[Grazza]

Gusta said:

I have to say, that you found a trick I personally haven't known. Congrats! :)

Cool. :)

I improved it a bit: Map16 UV Speed in 0:49. There are some obvious hold-ups, but I'm not sure if I'll try pushing this one any further, as it involves quite a lot of luck as it is.

[Opulent]

http://www.doomworld.com/sda/dwdemo/ks07-225.zip

[Searcher]

Boy Oh Boy do I love these. Nice job guys!

Some pretty amazing stuff from everyone.

[Grazza]

Yeah, there's no stopping Anima once the bit's between his teeth. :)

Here's another one from me:
Map19 (Natural) UV Speed in 1:20. Features two tricks: an archie jump and a window jump. I'm sure both these shortcuts were deliberately allowed. First exit; not sure if I'll try to improve it though, since it is quite a frustrating run.

[Gusta]

In spite of that I knew about a map19 window jump, I originally hadn't planned it. Just later i found taht there is some "bug" which allows just to "walk" through the window, you even don't have to try a jump. If I remember right my time was.. er 0:55 and I didn't use an AV jump, so maybe the saved health made my run faster..??
Btw I recorded map04 in 3:31 but it was first exit so about 3mins should go without a doubt.

[Grazza]

I wouldn't blame the archie jump - the rest of the run is probably more at fault. Should probably press the switch by the yellow bars, and (obviously) make the window jump immediately and hope for the best. TBH, I was getting fed up with dying and just wanted an exit.

[dobberman]

ksutra-n.wz.cz - update

[Schneelocke]

dobberman said:

ksutra-n.wz.cz - update

The link for Richie's map31 13:41 is broken - it has an extra ".zip" at the end that shouldn't be there.

[Anima Zero]

Just did a map23 UV-Speed in 2:33. I didn't notice any possible speed tricks, though knowing my luck I probably missed one somewhere :P. Still room for improvement on this route though.

Sending to Ops now.

[Vile]

Anima Zero said:

I didn't notice any possible speed tricks, though knowing my luck I probably missed one somewhere :P.

Upon further inspection, there's a very fast route that appears intentional. The yellow door is only locked from the outside. As such, take your ssg and face the windows of the yellow door room. It's tricky, but it's possible to hit the very edge of the cyberdemon from outside and wake him, so he'll then open the door for you.

I believe this route is intentional because they've been pretty good about locking the doors from both sides elsewhere.

[TheHappySpoon]

Vile said:

Upon further inspection, there's a very fast route that appears intentional. The yellow door is only locked from the outside. As such, take your ssg and face the windows of the yellow door room. It's tricky, but it's possible to hit the very edge of the cyberdemon from outside and wake him, so he'll then open the door for you.

I believe this route is intentional because they've been pretty good about locking the doors from both sides elsewhere.

Now I'm pondering... Why can CyberDemon's open doors? Are there any that they can fit through? :P Must be generic code, but hilarious non-the-less.

[Anima Zero]

Vile said:

Upon further inspection, there's a very fast route that appears intentional. The yellow door is only locked from the outside. As such, take your ssg and face the windows of the yellow door room. It's tricky, but it's possible to hit the very edge of the cyberdemon from outside and wake him, so he'll then open the door for you.

I believe this route is intentional because they've been pretty good about locking the doors from both sides elsewhere.

And once again I miss a major time-saving trick :P. Thanks again! Using this tactic, I just recorded a :26 UV-Speed demo. That cyber is NOT my friend. Going to give it a few more goes here and see if I can shave off any more time (think I can take off 1 or 2 more seconds ATM, we'll see).

EDIT: Heh, 'few more goes' meant "2nd attempt after posting the above". Dropped the time to :22 now. Almost perfect now. Few more tries and I'll send what I have off.

EDIT 2: Alrighty, after about another 15 minutes worth of attempts, got a time of :18. Pretty sure this is almost optimal. Maybe a second more could be shaved off if you get the first SSG shot to connect with the cyber, but this would require some major luck I think. Also certain this'll be as fast I can push it without going bonkers over it. Sending the demo to Ops now.

[Grazza]

TheHappySpoon said:

Why can CyberDemon's open doors? Are there any that they can fit through? :P

The cyber can fit through the door it opens in the trick being described here.

Anima: I'd certainly think you could get it some way below 0:22. I achieved that time playing fairly casually without much thought for planning or strategy, so I'd guess it's a very long way from optimal.

[TheHappySpoon]

Grazza said:

The cyber can fit through the door it opens in the trick being described here.

Well, that would make sense since the level was engineered after the game was designed. What I was referring to was more the levels that shipped with Doom/Doom 2.

[Opulent]

Anininama Map23:
http://www.doomworld.com/sda/dwdemo/ks23-233.zip
http://www.doomworld.com/sda/dwdemo/ks23-018.zip

[Kristian Ronge]

Anima Zero said:
Alrighty, after about another 15 minutes worth of attempts, got a time of :18. Pretty sure this is almost optimal.

"Almost optimal, eh"? ;-)

Then maybe you'll want to take a look at this ->
ks23-013.zip - Map 23, UV speed, 0:13.

Took roughly 20 minutes, and it's not nearly perfect, *at least* 0:10 is possible. Got tired of trying.

A plea to Anima (meant in the best possible way, and only because I want you to achieve the highest level of play): Please start mousing, dude. I can see from your demos I'm not nearly as good as you, but for speedruns being a keyboarder is a huge disadvantage.

A wierd coincidence -- the demo has the exact same stats as my first Kama Sutra demo (map 3 UV pacifist)...

EDIT: Minor changes.

[Angus Thermopyle]

Improved Map23 UV Speed to 0:14.

Edit: Nice Mr. Ronge ;)

[Kristian Ronge]

Hahah, almost simultaneous posting there...! I was thinking of going for at least 0:12, but I'm not really up for it. :-)

EDIT: Thanks for the comment, Mr. Schneidau. ;-) What are you waiting for? 0:12.. Go for it!

[Anima Zero]

Kristian Ronge said:

"Almost optimal, eh"? ;-)

Then maybe you'll want to take a look at this ->
ks23-013.zip - Map 23, UV speed, 0:13.

Took roughly 20 minutes, and it's not nearly perfect, *at least* 0:10 is possible. Got tired of trying.

A plea to Anima (meant in the best possible way, and only because I want you to achieve the highest level of play): Please start mousing, dude. I can see from your demos I'm not nearly as good as you, but for speedruns being a keyboarder is a huge disadvantage.

Well looks like I totally blow when it comes to guessing good times eh ^_^? Good demo.

And that comment about switching to mouser-mode: Well, if I can get through Hexen all fine using the mouse (awesome game I must say), then I don't see why I can't mouse on Doom. I'll see what I can cook up tomorrow.

[TheHappySpoon]

However, our good friend RyBack did a 30nm with keyboard only. I will, of course, be damned if any keyboarder is able to out manevoer me.

[Kristian Ronge]

TheHappySpoon said:
However, our good friend RyBack did a 30nm with keyboard only.

Yes, and the fact that he did it disadvantaged, i.e. using keyboard only (first ever to do this, of course, perhaps the only one in all time), makes it extremely impressive... I think it was very odd that his first 30nm wasn't even nominated for "best technical merit" in the Golden Cybers.

[TheHappySpoon]

Kristian Ronge said:

Yes, and the fact that he did it disadvantaged, i.e. using keyboard only (first ever to do this, of course, perhaps the only one in all time), makes it extremely impressive... I think it was very odd that his first 30nm wasn't even nominated for "best technical merit" in the Golden Cybers.

It doesn't surprise me. You act like he's severly crippled, but he doesn't seem to see it that way at all. He even told me once that he uses the keyboard instead of the mouse because turns with the keyboard are more predictable, although less accurate over all.

I'm not sure the gap is as big as it is presented. Although, over all, I'm not inclined to judge the playing ability or control handicaps of someone that has done something I cannot.

[Gusta]

Hmm.. it seems that another useful shortcut was found :)

[Anima Zero]

Well, I tried the mouse. It didn't go so well. I'd rather stick to pure keyboarding, as I'm more comfortable with it, and that's what matters to me :).

I'd like to think of my speedrun demos (the ones with tricks in them) for this megawad as showing a visual on the trick in action. Then someone else can go perfect it.

Based on that description...someone oughta go improve the map17 UV-Speed if it can be improved.

Er, yeah, enough rambling there ^_^. Back to to your automated message courtesy of me...

Just did a UV-Max in 5:41 for map11. Good map. I think it could be improved some, though not going to make a surefire guess on a good time. I'll say around 5:20-5:30 would be nice to see for now.

Sending to Ops now.

[Kristian Ronge]

TheHappySpoon said:
You act like he's severly crippled

What I've said (and maintain) is that keyboarders are disadvantaged, not "crippled", in the sense that it is harder -- not at all impossible! -- to achieve fast speedruns. FWIW, Casey Alvis also felt Ryback's 30nm should've been at least nominated.

I'm not sure the gap is as big as it is presented.

All I know is an overwhelming majority of Doom Gods throughout the years have used the mouse. Those who are already good when using keyboard only, invariably become better when starting to play using the mouse (Yonatan, Xit, Casey...).

Although, over all, I'm not inclined to judge the playing ability or control handicaps of someone that has done something I cannot.

I think you'll find these threads interesting, since Ryback himself comments on this. And there's other input from various well-known players, including Anders Johnsen, and Opulent.

And Anima: If you're happy with keyboarding, then stick to it! I sincerely hope you weren't offended by what I said. Since UV speed seems to be one of your favourite categories, I'm just certain you could reach great results with less effort if you used the mouse. Well.. as long as you've tried it (which you did), that's all I ask. :-)

EDIT: Slight changes (spelling, etc)

[Anima Zero]

Kristian Ronge said:

And Anima: If you're happy with keyboarding, then stick to it! I sincerely hope you weren't offended by what I said. Since UV speed seems to be one of your favourite categories, I'm just certain you could reach great results with less effort if you used the mouse. Well.. as long as you've tried it (which you did), that's all I ask. :-)

Not offended at all ^_^. It just seems that for certain games I can do better with the mouse than others (Hexen being one of those games I'm good at with the mouse).