Kama Sutra Demopack [Released!]

[Grazza]

OK, here are the promised tables:

Kama Sutra UV Max Table

Map	 Time	Player
01	 1:07	radeg
02	 1:53	method
03	 1:19	radeg
04	 3:23	radeg
05	 3:55	gusta
06	 4:55	method
07	 2:10	radeg
08	 6:00	anima
09	 3:26	radeg
10	11:23	anima
11	 5:41	anima
12	 3:03	gusta
13	 7:05	anima
14	 7:23	gusta
15	 6:54	anima
16	 8:27	gusta
17	 7:38	radeg
18	12:35	anima
19	 8:39	method
20	11:12	anima
21	 3:26	vile
22	 8:24	method
23	 7:30	anima
24	11:31	anima
25	 3:44	angus
26	 9:22	angus
27	11:35	anima
28	41:04*	ryback
29	28:22	anima
30	 0:37	opulent
31	13:23	anima
32	 5:45	anima

* = MBF demo

Kama Sutra UV Speed Table

Map	Time	Player
01	0:35	dobber
02	0:05	dobber	
03	0:04	dobber
04	0:04*	grazza
05	0:22	grazza
06	0:09	angus
07	1:27	radeg
08	0:10	dobber
09	0:15	kristian
10	0:05	dobber
11	0:32*	grazza
12	0:10	dobber
13	0:11*	grazza
14	0:18*	gusta
15	1:40	anima
15s	0:52	grazza
16	0:39	gusta
17	0:43	method
18	0:17*	kristian	
19	0:40	gusta
20	0:56	kristian
21	0:26*	dobber
22	3:19	anima
23	0:12	kristian
24	8:05	anima
25	0:01*	grazza
26	1:48	anima
27	2:18	anima
28	0:10	angus
29	2:56	kristian
30	0:17*	dobber/opulent
31	2:44	angus
31s	3:21	angus
32	0:20	kristian

* = also pacifist

Kama Sutra UV Pacifist Table

Map	Time	Player
01	0:55	grazza
02	0:05**	grazza	
03	0:05	dobber
04	0:04*	grazza
05	0:24	angus
08	0:10**	grazza	
09	0:18	kristian
10	0:07	grazza
11	0:32*	grazza
13	0:11*	grazza
14	0:18*	gusta
18	0:17*	kristian
21	0:26*	dobber
23	0:23	grazza
25	0:01*	grazza
28	0:11	angus
30	0:17*	dobber/opulent
32	0:45	grazza

* = also current UV Speed record
** = equals the current UV Speed record

Kama Sutra NM Table

Map	Time	Player
02	0:05	angus
03	0:05*	dobber
04	0:03*+	grazza
06	0:12	angus
10	0:03+	grazza
12	0:41	grazza
13	0:17	angus
18	0:18	kristian	
21	0:30+	angus
23	0:13*	kristian
25	0:00+	kristian
28	0:10+	angus
32	0:31*	kristian

* = also NM100S
+ = also Pacifist

Kama Sutra NM100S Table
12	2:18	anima
25	0:45	angus
28	0:45	angus

Kama Sutra Misc. Demos Table

These are demos that are either in unusual categories, or are in 
standard categories but demonstrate alternative routes and are deemed 
by general consent to be of sufficient interest to be included.

Map	Category		Time	Player
01	coop UV Max		0:59	vince/method
03	UV Pacifist alt. route	0:07	grazza
04	coop UV Speed		0:02	vince/method
04	coop NM			0:02	vince/method
04	net1 NM			0:02	grazza
04	UV Speed alt. route	0:47	anima
08	UV -nomonsters Speed	0:06	vile
09	UV Speed alt. route	0:55	anima
11	UV -nomonsters Speed	0:25	grazza
12	UV -nomonsters 100S	0:50	grazza
16	UV Speed alt. route	0:42	radeg
23	UV Speed alt. route	2:01	anima
25	UV -fast		4:45	angus
25	UV Speed 100S		0:35	angus

Let me know if there are any errors or omissions (quite possible!), and otherwise start assembling your text comments. I have removed the "not yets" from all the tables apart from UV Speed.

Note: I haven't systematically checked the UV Max demos for any missed monsters, but did take a look at the alive monsters counter in many cases when watching them.

EDIT: There is a full zip of all the demos listed in these tables here. It includes folder/directory info, so be sure to unzip it with that enabled so as to keep each category separate.

[Grazza]

Gusta said:

Btw. Here are the actual max record times:
...
04 - Radeg 3:23
...
19 - Method 8:39

When I was putting a zip of the current records together (see the last paragraph of the previous post), I found I didn't have these two. I don't see a link to them, and they're not in sda/dwdemo or at Ksutra-N. Did you send them to Opulent?

[Gusta]

I am sorry I overlooked they are not published yet, I'll surely send both them to you. 21st june is cool date to release, pity that the speed table is not completed yet. Anyway I doubt we'll receive any comments from dobber or so.

[Kristian Ronge]

I did map 29 UV speed in 2:56. Purely filler material (crap, that is) ;-). I will upload it later, unless someone else makes a faster demo... which should be easy.

Quite impressive work, Grazza. I believe your tables are completely accurate!

[Anima Zero]

Well, here's all my comments. I organized them into groups (Max first, then Speed, then my NM100s run, then the misc. demos). I left out comments for map 19 UV-Max since there's that 8:39 by method that just hasn't been posted yet. If it can't be found or something, I can always add in comments on my run.

With that outta the way, here are all the comments...

General Pack Comments
---------------------
Well, another demopack for a great megawad is finally done. Kama Sutra is an excellent megawad, right up there with the other classics (HR, AV, Scythe, to name a few). The gameplay, the level design, it's all there, and it's all nicely done. Props to Gusta and Method for releasing this gem!

It's hard to choose some of my favorite demos from the pack, so I'll just say "watch them all!" and be done with it :). They're that good.

Map 08- Time is Tickin' Out (Max)
---------------------------------
Small level, fast-paced gameplay, full of monsters. That describes this level. There's an issue with a couple monster teleporters that might make fast 100% kills a very tough goal to achieve here. They teleported in a bit slow here, but otherwise went quick.

Map 10- To Be or Not To Be (Max)
--------------------------------
A difficult map with some tough fights, that's for sure. I'm happy with how the demo turned out, mainly because I made the jump to the invis. sphere secret on my first attempt.

Map 11- Execution (Max)
-----------------------
Fun level. The opening fight can be a killer if you're not prepared for it. Cells are somewhat limited, so I saved some to deal with the huge horde of monsters late in the level. Not a bad demo, but I did miss some SSG shots here and there.

Map 13- The Holocaust II (Max)
------------------------------
A good monster-blaster level. Also not that hard with the proper strategy. A group of monsters (Some revs and a couple archies) were slow to teleport in while I was at the BK area. Otherwise a good demo.

Map 15- Miss Sporty (Max)
------------------------
Good SSG blaster level. There is a BFG, but not till the near-end of the level. I wait to kill the enemies in the tennis room and area with the RSK until I get the BFG, then it's payback time on those enemy hordes! Rest of the level wasn't hard, especially when I had a surplus Soulsphere and Megaarmor, which let me enter the shootout in the final area with a full 200/200, making that simply easy to get through.

Map 18- The Train is Approaching (Max)
--------------------------------------
Non-linear level, which means that several routes can be taken here. Credit for the initial route and demo goes to Gusta. I added some of my own route tweaks as well, namely getting the BK which the cybie guards...when it's still alive. Messed up the jump down there and was surprised that the cybie didn't plant a rocket into my back. Went down to single-digit health here too thanks to a manco, some barrels, and a caco at the half way point of the level.

Map 20- Traps (Max)
-------------------
Fun level with some traps that can catch one off-guard if they're not paying attention. The invul. sphere secret should be saved until the big group of archies guarding the RSK are cleared out. After getting the RSK, a massive horde of monsters start teleporting in. With the BFG and invul. sphere, clearing out some of the horde is easy. After invul. wears off, the rest of the horde shouldn't be too tough to take out. Last half of level is easy. I thought the time here was good too.

Map 23- A Little Big Massacre (Max)
-----------------------------------
Great level with constant action all the time. Best fight goes to the YSK battle where there's 5 cybies and 80 revs. So amusing to see such a large rev horde fall before the cybies, then seeing the cybies die at my hands.

Map 24- The Gift From GOTT (Max)
--------------------------------
Ouch, this level can be very tough without a good strat. Getting the 1st cybie telefragged is important for a quick time here. BSK room is also tough on the first visit there. Lots of enemies, archies in the central part of the room, that all makes for one tough situation right there. I handled it well here...until I go to rocket a lone archie and end up hitting an arach at point-blank range. There goes most of my health and armor. Other than that though, rest of level went pretty quickly.

Map 27- The Stairway to Heaven (Max)
------------------------------------
This happens to be one of my favorite levels from Kama Sutra. Good challenge, fun gameplay (new weapon for each area you get to). I do freely admit my punching skills aren't 100%. The first part of the RSK building is an example of that. Ate a cybie rocket late in the map by strafing right into it. That was smart. Other than that, everything else went off without a hitch.

Map 29- I'm Just a DOOM Addict (Max)
------------------------------------
Another level that I like. It's huge (Probably the biggest level in KS), but it's darn fun to play through. I get the BFG early on, which helps me clear out some cybies much quicker. Quite happy with the demo since infights went well (Cybie after Mastermind...wow, never got the Baron to hit the Cybie that quickly before).

Map 31- Devastation (Max)
-------------------------
Excellent level which happens to be my favorite level from KS. Monster-blaster level to the extreme, which leads to mass killing with the BFG and RL. Start can be tough, but slowly goes down from there. 2nd half of demo went a little slow since I had to look for stragglers near the end. The time is sub 13:30, which was my goal for the level.

Map 32- Anger Management (Max)
------------------------------
Small level, but pretty tough. The cybies are tough to deal with since there's not exactly a whole bunch of room to dodge, so splash dmg can add up quickly. Happy with how the demo turned out, save for a couple BFG shots that could have been better aimed.

Map 15- Miss Sporty (Speed, Normal Exit)
----------------------------------------
This is a tough run in a couple spots, namely the run back from getting the RSK, and the battle at the pool where the YK is located. The run back from the RSK wasn't the best (I've had better returns than that), but the battle at the pool went very well, as I got the YK pretty quickly and made my jump to the megasphere secret on the first attempt. Ending was real easy. SSG to upside-down cross= skipping the entire shootout there.

Map 22- Fire Play (Speed)
-------------------------
Tough to speed quickly, as there are monsters that you have to kill to advance quickly. The keygrabs are also tough, but I got those within a few attempts each. Otherwise, rest of demo was good, but I did miss some shots here and there.

Map 26- Kill Bill (Speed)
-------------------------
The boost I need to get from an archie here is hard to get for one reason: Archie just loves to get distracted by enemy fire. Other than that, not too hard of a run.

Map 27- The Stairway to Heaven (Speed)
--------------------------------------
No real tricks to exploit here, just straight on pure running. Got lucky in the RSK building. Rest of level went smoothly.

Map 12- King Arena (NM100S)
---------------------------
Tough run at the point where I jump out of the building and go claim the invis.+soulsphere secret. Monsters just love to block my jump and screw the run over right there. Other than that, wasn't too overwhelming. Thought I was gonna die though when waiting to get access to the BK.

Map 04- Water Base (Speed, Alt. Route)
--------------------------------------
Not hard on this route, but I did manage to almost get killed several times in the process.

Map 09- The Holocaust (Speed, Alt. Route)
-----------------------------------------
I decided to do this as Grazza wanted to see a run done without the trick jump. This was a pretty easy run too. Some minor mess-ups, but nothing too drastic.

Map 23- A Little Big Massacre (Speed, Alt. Route)
------------------------------------------------
This was fun to do. The cybie behind the YSK door can be a major pain and end the run right there if one is unlucky. Here, the cybie almost did just that, but I lived, haw!

[Grazza]

Excellent :)

I've received the two missing Maxes from Gusta. I've added them to the full zip (link above), and also put them in the usual place:
Ks04-323radeg.zip
Ks19-839method.zip

[Gusta]

Anima: When I was reading your comments I realised one thing about map 27. For a speed there are two not-yet-used tricks saving a little bit of time. First one is a St50 jump right at the start to first teleport, the second one is a red key grab, doable from all sides except the western one you come into the room.

[Angus Thermopyle]

Here are my comments. Please check for spelling/grammar mistakes. I hope there aren't too many.


General comments
----------------
Gusta and Method did an outstanding work. Kama Sutra is a very enjoyable set of superbly designed maps, and it belongs to my personal top5 WADs (with The Plutonia Experiment, Alien Vendetta, Scythe and Scythe II). It's a great fun to play in various styles, because it's designed for max AND speed which is rare nowadays. My only complaint: they have overdone it perhaps with too many early shortcuts (check the UV Speed tables and you'll see).
I wish I had contributed more demos (especially maxruns) to this collection, but the other players did an even better work than I could have done. You'll find lots of amazing stuff.
This demoset is not the end for me with KSutra, like Scythe I'll play it in years, and I hope I'll do the runs one day I wasn't able to manage so far (Map28 UV Max for example).


Map25 UV Max
------------
Constant action! I love this map. At first I thought this would be too hard for me and there wouldn't be enough safe places. What? Safe places? You don't need them. Play this map aggressive and you're at the safe side! And use the invulnerability wisely. Thx to Gusta, who convinced me it could be a waste to use it for the archviles at the BFG and cyberdemons - this saved more than 30 seconds.
There are some unused cells in the northwest, and I wasted two BFG shots for the last chaingunner ... could it be faster with getting the BFG early?
Funny sidenote: I overlooked the possibility to lower the plasma gun platforms for several months and always grabbed the guns. Stupid, eh?

Map26 UV Max
------------
This is my favourite KSutra map and one of the best maps ever. It has a great design and awesome gameplay. Especially the plasma gun start is very exciting! The bad guys here are the cyberdemons at the red key switches, but the rest of the map isn't very hard.
It's one of my most hardworked demos. I remember my first exit: over 24 minutes, all ammo used and I had to punch the remaining demons. Hehe :) At that time I thought 15 minutes would be excellent and under 12 minutes would be out reach for me, now I think 8:xx would be cool. With less unnecessary search for ammo (I wish I could better remember where I've left some cells and where not) this would have broken that barrier. Nice demo though!

Map06 UV Speed
--------------
The key here is to reach the elevator switch as fast as possible. It's not easy because of the chaingunners, they can kill you in no time. The jump itself isn't hard at all. Route credits to Dobber.

Map28 UV Speed
--------------
Yay, the first rocket jump I've discovered myself! It's trickier than NM Speed because the cyberdemon often refuses to help you with decimating the imps in front of the exit. I went back to doom2.exe for this, because I needed the extra time at the start and better positioning for the rocket launcher. Is 0:09 possible? I hope it's not ;)

Map31 UV Speed (normal exit)
----------------------------
One of my favourite KSutra maps. This is just a plane run to the exit without any tricks. It looks like there are some AV jump shortcuts possible, but I'm not so crazy to try it. Without this it's exciting enough :) It's not easy to get past the archviles in the southwest corner, you have to be very precise there. My demo is not bad (despite some faults featuring an imp and a badly timed BFG shot for a single revenant), but even with this route it should be sub-2:30 - for a better time take more risk with getting the red key, with the jump to the chaingunner building (I clear the area below before I jump because of blocking monsters) and try to use BFG only for the revenant hordes in the blue door zone (I was successful once).
BTW, I tried the secret exit also, but it seems to be too hard for me.

Map05 UV Pacifist
-----------------
It's a nice trick route Grazza found here. And not hard at all except the second trick. Without the blocking imps this could be perhaps faster than his speed record.

Map28 UV Pacifist
-----------------
A luck-based run. Does the cyberdemon kill enough imps or not? I was lucky here, but with one more dead imp this also could be 0:10. Sad. (It's recorded with doom2.exe.)

Map02 NM Speed
--------------
This was possible because sometimes an archvile attack steals you 20 health only.

Map06 NM Speed
--------------
Even with the goodies from the secrets the chaingunners can kill you in no time. Sorry for the bad jump.

Map13 NM Speed
--------------
The two hellknights in front of the door are perhaps the most annoying monsters in the whole WAD. I hate them!
I wasted hours and hours to get the speed record back from Grazza without any luck. So I spent more hours with stealing his NM record and finally got this one, but I'm sure Grazza will get it back ;)

Map21 NM Speed
--------------
Cool map. But ugly demo. I've touched too many walls. And the cyberdemon pushed me around - it's of course possible to avoid this.

Map28 NM Speed
--------------
It's much easier than UV Speed. My success rate is very high, and surprisingly I seldom get a cybie rocket into my face. Busy with other things, that guy.
This is my first doom2.exe demo after more than a year, so it looks a bit shaky.

Map25 NM100S
------------
Far from perfect. I did the keygrab the slow way and some other minor mistakes. But overall I'm happy that I've done this without being pushed around too much from the archviles. 0:3x would be nice, it's perhaps easier to get this time with lowering the plasma gun platforms ;)
I must admit I wasn't very happy about the change from NM Speed to NM100S, but Kristian's NM Speed record is cool, even Sedlo could not beat it.

Map28 NM100S
------------
This is nothing special. You are invulnerable most of the time.

Map25 UV100S
------------
Cool, a new category :) Perhaps I'll try it again to improve it to 0:30 or perhaps 0:29, which is my dream here. I'm satisfied with this demo though, especially the last part looks pretty good. To reach the exit can be annoying, but here the cybies cooperated very well.
Grazza, there's no need for you to apologize. You did it in 0:01, which is great, and not I. It was my own fault not to try this shortcut seriously. I hope for you that 0:00 is not possible.

[Grazza]

Angus Thermopyle said:

Please check for spelling/grammar mistakes.

Sure, no problem.

The text for your UV -fast on map25 is missing though (I'd made a slight mistake in the tables with respect to that one - corrected now).

[Angus Thermopyle]

Here it is.

Map 25 UV -fast
---------------
I have to take the invulnerability sphere early, so it's not possible to rush the archviles in the middle of the map with the rocket launcher. Using the BFG instead helps here a lot. Overall it's not much harder than UV Max.

[Grazza]

Here's my stuff. Now we just need the text comments from radeg, method, gusta, vile, ryback, opulent, dobber, kristian (and the map29 demo) and vince.

----------------------------

General Comments

Kama Sutra is an enormously impressive megawad, and in my view the truest successor to Hell Revealed. It has a similar sense of fun both in the design and the gameplay. You can tell Gusta and Method enjoyed making it, and wanted people to have fun playing it too. The designs and layouts are clever and varied, with many imaginative touches and little pieces of realism throughout many of the maps. I don't particularly want to get into a "best megawad ever" discussion, but for me KS joins HR and AV in a trinity of immortal megawads.
As befits a great megawad, there is masses of replay value - the maps can be tackled in a huge variety of ways, with many possible routes and several possible shortcuts available in most. Perhaps there are too many drastic shortcuts though, as some maps can be exited just by executing a trick - there is little need for any real Dooming at all in some cases. Still, that's why we have so many demo categories...
I feel this pack does justice to Kama Sutra, but also that it goes only a little beyond scratching the surface. There's just one UV -fast, few coops, no episode runs, no UV -respawns or Tysons, and lots of gaps in NM and UV Pacifist - that leaves plenty of room for further demos, quite apart from improving over existing times. But what there is in this large pack is very considerable - I believe the quality is high, and that all these demos should prove highly entertaining. Thanks and congratulations to everyone else who worked on this pack. I'll single out Anima for particular praise - his enthusiasm to tackle long and difficult Maxes (amongst other categories) kept things ticking along nicely.


UV Speed

Map04 - Water Base
-----------------
Time 0:04. You start off with the exit just behind you. To reach it, all you need is to be dead and to have a bit of momentum. The imps help in both respects.

Map05 - Klondike
----------------
Time 0:22. Two shortcut tricks enable much of the map to be skipped: a glide past a pillar (no need for the yellow key), and a weird step-jump-glide sort of thing to cut out the need for the red key. The former is quite easy, but the latter is rather awkward. I'm reasonably happy with this as there aren't any big screw-ups, but obviously it could go quite a few seconds faster.

Map11 - Execution
-----------------
Time 0:32. A memorable map, with a start area surely inspired by Duke Nukem. Unfortunately, it's a rather ugly demo (I get held up at various points), but it features a difficult trick jump onto a rising platform. More often than not a caco blocks the jump entirely, but occasionally you can even get a useful bump off it. Apart from the jump, it's a straightforward run, though you need to be careful towards the end, as there is a nasty map bug that you can trigger. I think 0:25 would be a good time here.

Map13 - The Holocaust II
------------------------
Time 0:11. A cool map with a great helicopter. I'm pretty happy with this - all elements of the intended route go well, except that I don't get cleanly past the hell knights. Can't have everything. :)
Credits for the archie exit jump to Jochen "Angus Thermopyle" Schneidau, although I've modified it quite a bit: a different angle, and the jump is done from mid-air to save time. Note that for this form of the exit jump to work, you need to have lost some height - otherwise you are blocked by an invisible ceiling/sky. This makes it quite awkward to arrange since if you fall too low, the archie tends to lose sight of you. Getting killed by the blast is helpful too (and maybe essential), since it means you have a better chance of fitting through the gap. A clean run on this route would probably be 0:09. Angus reckons the hell knights here are the most annoying monsters in the wad. I certainly know what he means (I got past them about 1 time in 5, and cleanly about 1 time in, er, too many), but reckon the former humans in the exit are of map12 are worse.

Map15 - Miss Sporty (secret exit)
---------------------------------
Time 0:52. A very distinctive map with some great touches of realism. There isn't much choice about the route - I basically follow the same path as in Anima's and Kristian's earlier demos, but use a different trick to reach the exit - a switch trick rather than an archie jump. It seems to save a few seconds, and of course you don't need as much health.

Map25 - Cow Face
----------------
Time 0:01. I have mixed feelings about this demo, since Angus had been doing some very nice runs via the intended route. However, the player starts within the exit, and just needs to skip a teleport line. I don't know if you can in theory skip it just by running, but the cybers lend a helping hand. You still need a lot of luck to exit rather than teleport though.


UV Pacifist

Map01 - Into the Underground
----------------------------
Time 0:55. A pacifist run on a map like this will never be terribly elegant, but I put some effort into making it vaguely presentable. I don't try the run to the yellow key platform while it is still rising, as I think that would mean setting off before you know you've pressed the switch, but I do use a little exit trick: dying means I can fit through the gap and exit a little earlier.

Map02 - The Hidden Generator
----------------------------
Time 0:05. A straightforward archie jump, though accuracy/luck is needed as there is little margin for error. Also, it seems you need to be alive to make it to the exit. This runs really only differs from dobber's UV Speed in that I avoid hitting anything with the wake-up shot.

Map04 - Water Base
------------------
Time 0:04. [Same as UV Speed] Staying pacifist just means being a bit careful with the wake-up shot.

Map10 - To Be or Not To Be...
-----------------------------
Time 0:07. An archie suicide jump, but it's amazing how different this is from NM, where I got a 0:03 (pacifist too) without difficulty. Here the archie is slow, and the other monsters quickly close in if you release them. But if you don't release them, they can't damage you, and the archie blast is unlikely to kill you on its own. Therefore I get a hell knight to hit me while I'm waiting for archie. I can't say I'm happy with 0:07, but this was the only time I got it below 10 seconds in rather a lot of attempts.

Map11 - Execution
-----------------
Time 0:32. [Same as UV Speed] Keeping this one pacifist isn't so difficult - a jump from the chair at the start helps a lot. Once you've skipped the SSG, there's not much point shooting at anything, so you just have to hope nothing parks itself in your way.

Map13 - The Holocaust II
------------------------
Time 0:11. [Same as UV Speed] Actually, my UV Speed route originated with my attempts to do this map pacifist-style, and this turned out to yield better times than picking up the SSG. Unfortunately, it also brought in the annoying need to barge past the two hell knights, and requires a cooperative archie.

Map23 - A Little Big Massacre
-----------------------------
Time 0:23. The yellow key door only needs a key on one side, so the trick is to get a monster to open it. The UV Speed route involves shooting the cyber, but Pacifist is feasible thanks to the archie opening the door à la Doom2 map27. It's not all that difficult to get the archie to open the door (my initial 0:34 first exit came after just a few minutes of trying), but getting it to do so quickly is another matter (this 0:23 was the product of a two-hour recording session). The route I use here involves skipping the soulsphere and also makes it more likely for the archie to get distracted. But, when it works, it is quicker. The exact time is 0:23.03, annoyingly. On the other hand, for the archie to open the door without even blasting you *once* is a big slice of good luck, so I'm not going to complain too much. :)

Map25 - Cow Face
----------------
Time 0:01. [Same as UV Speed] I was trying to find a way to do this map pacifist-style, and after fruitlessly looking for glides or archie jumps, I returned to the "obvious" idea, and found that it could be done.

Map32 - Anger Management
------------------------
Time 0:45. A nice and chaotic little map. I had been trying to find a way to reach the exit without shooting the Keens, and raised the idea of an exit glide (the gap is 32 units, but I don't recall previous glides with this exact set-up). Kristian Ronge then showed that it could be done. Unfortunately I need three bites at the glide in this demo, but the rest of it goes reasonably well.


NM Speed

Map04 - Water Base
------------------
Time 0:03. Very similar to UV, but the imps kill you a bit quicker. The exact time is 0:03.26, so 0:02 is surely possible.

Map10 - To Be or Not To Be...
-----------------------------
Time 0:03. It's a 3-second demo - what is there to say? The archie jump gives height, and the corpse can fit through the gap.

Map12 - King Arena
------------------
Time 0:41. I can't see how the direct route (see the UV Speed demo) could be made to work on NM, since the revenants won't budge, and the pistol won't clear them out of the way anything like quickly enough. Therefore I grab the nearest good weapon (the berserk), and then come back and deal out some punishment. I was surprised to be able to exit with just two revenants dead - if I'd known that was going to happen, I wouldn't have started punching a third one (I decided to make a run for it when I saw my health was ticking down too quickly).
The trick jump into the exit area is a thing glide - presumably it's possible without it, but the glide makes it far easier.


Misc. Demos

Map03 - Mr.Adolf Kill You!
--------------------------
UV Pacifist (alternative route). Time 0:07. Apparently this combined archie/rocket approach was the intended shortcut, but it is slower than the purely rocket route, as getting the archie into position takes a little time. Nevertheless, it's quite an elegant idea. 0:06 is clearly possible with this route.

Map04 - Water Base
------------------
NM Speed "1-player coop" (net1). Time 0:02. There's a nice archie in multiplayer, which I use here to speed up exiting. Exact time is 0:02.97. :)
With this being a "1-player coop" demo, you'll need these two *separate* command lines to watch it with prboom/glboom (edit the paths as necessary):
c:\doom2\prboom_server.exe -N 1 -w ksutra.wad
c:\doom2\glboom -net localhost -playdemo kx04-002

Map11 - Execution
-----------------
UV -nomonsters Speed. Time 0:25. The jump is a bit different with -nomonsters - there's no caco to get in the way, but it also isn't there to help you either. That means the jump needs to be even more accurate, and so my success rate was quite poor here too.

Map12 - King Arena
------------------
UV -nomonsters with 100% Secrets. Time 0:50. Just showing a couple of trick jumps (both of which I get only at the second attempt, unfortunately, but that's by far the best I've managed). The first one (into the "furnace") enables you to reach a secret (and the red key) that would otherwise be inaccessible with -nomonsters. The jump from the blue armour secret just saves some time, compared to visiting the secret and then doing the "standard" trick jump into the exit area.
The furnace jump doesn't need strafe-50, but is very awkward. The blue armour secret jump is probably strafe-50-only, but is quite straightforward.
Good luck to anyone who tries to implement these in a NM100S run. I might have tried if I'd got anything like a decent success rate with the furnace jump.

[Gusta]

Wooo it's almost a bible reading!
I'll send all comments by me/radeg/method as soon as possible. Hope till the weekend. I doubt about the dobber's. I still would rather wait some time than have so many missing gaps in the comments.

[Kristian Ronge]

Here is map 29 UV speed, as promised. It sucks, but if nobody else wants to do it...

I'll start writing comments as well.

[Grazza]

Reminder: text still needed from radeg, method, gusta, vile, ryback, opulent, dobber, kristian and vince.

A map24 UV Speed would be nice too. :)

[Kristian Ronge]

Yes, it would, wouldn't it? ;-)

I don't think I'll try it, though ... it'll be too slow and boring. That map is completely impossible to speed. If you think about it, the UV max *is* by definition also UV speed (though a very slow one...) :-P

[Anima Zero]

Kristian Ronge said:

Yes, it would, wouldn't it? ;-)

I don't think I'll try it, though ... it'll be too slow and boring. That map is completely impossible to speed. If you think about it, the UV max *is* by definition also UV speed (though a very slow one...) :-P

Map24...yes, really hard to get a fast time here. Just did...a 7:51 UV-Speed for map24. It's really slow, but honestly, I'll be damned if I can get a proper beginning with telefragging the cybie (It didn't happen here, despite my best efforts).

Not a very good speedrun, but I'd rather not try more, as this level is indeed not the best for speedrunning :). Plus, this map really made me swear up a storm back when I tried to get a good UV-Max on the level (my 11:31).

If you want, I'll do a quick txt file and send it off to Ops. I do warn you...it ain't pretty and it's very slow ^_^.

[Grazza]

Anima Zero said:

If you want, I'll do a quick txt file and send it off to Ops. I do warn you...it ain't pretty and it's very slow ^_^.

I'd say that's a matter for your own judgement. If you really regard it as a bad demo and that people shouldn't watch it, then it's probably best not to submit it. On the other hand, if you think the map is such that it would be unrealistic to do a drastically better demo (without tool assistance), then I'd say it deserves to get a public airing.

[VinceDSS]

I barely have anything to say since my part was mostly being Method's partner for some funny runs :)

Well then ...

Comments
--------

I started to play Kama Sutra in coop a couple months before its release. Method hired me as coop beta tester. I must say I was nicely impressed with the quality of work. IT plays great it coop now, there are still a couple problems but Gusta and Method did a great making the coop mode really fun (unlike many wads).

My involvement in this demopack is almost irrelevant. I did 2 coop speedruns in map04 and a coop max on map01
Map04 features a coop assisted death slide which makes the map extremly easy. I wonder if 0:01 is possible, since we got 0:02.17 in one of the demos.
For map01 coop max, we needed a couple tries to find a decent route and to storm the map within a minute. It is still far from perfect though.

[Anima Zero]

Grazza said:

I'd say that's a matter for your own judgement. If you really regard it as a bad demo and that people shouldn't watch it, then it's probably best not to submit it. On the other hand, if you think the map is such that it would be unrealistic to do a drastically better demo (without tool assistance), then I'd say it deserves to get a public airing.

Ok then, I think I'm just not going to send it. Something about a 8-min UV-Speed doesn't fly right with me :P.

[Schneelocke]

Anima Zero said:

Ok then, I think I'm just not going to send it. Something about a 8-min UV-Speed doesn't fly right with me :P.

Oh, come on. :) Perfect is the enemy of good...

[Opulent]

yeah, my contribution is like submitting only the title screen. :P
and my MBF :46 demo is a lot better than my doom2.exe demos... anyway...
Opulent:
Map30: Super-easy, super-fun map with lots of replay value. Oddly, the "hard" side is easier than the "easy" side, but maybe that was intentional.
I don't believe :16 is possible in a speedrun.
Although I assume the telefrag-action was intentionally built-in to the map, Grazza first showed how this could be optimized. Potentially 6 or even 7 Cybers could be telefragged with a lot of luck; allowing for about a :23 run. Now go watch the others play the real maps. :)

[Kristian Ronge]

Here are my comments:

General comments
----------------

"Kama Sutra" came as a strike from out of the blue for most people, I guess. I was one of the few(?) who knew the WAD was in progress, and had high expectations. In short, even with these expectations, I was pleasantly surprised. This is an extremely impressive WAD in just about every respect. As Jochen points out, these maps are well suited for maxrunning as well as speedrunning, which is rare, to say the least! Even though I enjoyed playing KS through 100/100, what really caught my attention was the amount of insane time saving tricks that were present in almost every map. So I was quite happy keeping almost exclusively to UV/NM speed.

It is obvious these maps were designed by talented players, as the gameplay is top-notch, IMO on par with many of the classic WADs such as Scythe and HR. It seems the title pic and the "unique" map 30 caused some controversy (and I must say I didn't get the joke?) but this certainly doesn't detract from the rest of the WAD.

Anyway, this pack should provide the viewer with plenty of entertainment. Some of the best active players were involved in its making... Oh, and I also did a few runs. ;-) The UV and NM speed demos are filled to the brim with tricks that WILL astound you if you haven't seen them before. The max runs all show perfect route knowledge and the kind of efficiency you'd expect from players as talented as these guys are. The other demos (pacifist demos, alternate routes, etc.) aren't less impressive and are a must-see. With a dozen players involved in the demo pack, and with many different playing styles, there is lots of variation. I'm especially glad some demos of routes that are "destroyed" by the trick routes (e.g. Jochen's wonderful map 25 UV speed 100S) were included.

Thank you Gusta and Method for "Kama Sutra", thank you Grazza for finding and showing some marvellous tricks I used (maps 18, 20, 25, idea for 32... I still don't quite understand how you came up with them!), Vile for the map 23 trick, Anima Zero for the map 29 AV jump, Jakub Machata for the map 09 wallrun, and all the other players for your contributions to this pack. I'm proud to have been a part of it!




Map 09 "The Holocaust" UV speed - 0:15
--------------------------------------

This is probably the speedrun I've worked most on, so far. It took nearly all my spare time for a little more than three days to get 0:15 here. Ironic, then, that the demo looks sloppy. I just kept getting frustratingly low 0:16 exits. I felt more relief than joy when I finally made this one. The wallrun trick seems to work only when strafing to the left, inward towards the wall. Strange...


Map 18 "The Train Is Approaching" UV speed - 0:17
-------------------------------------------------

A fun map, with a strange title. It can become confusing to get around in max playing, because of all the interconnected areas, but thanks to the trick jump at the end, it's easy to run through. You don't really need to shoot anything either, as the monsters very rarely get in your way. You can just charge through the packs of imps and Cacos. The jump is strafe-50 only. Time could have been a little bit better, but I'm still not disappointed with this run. Especially since it's done Reality style, i.e. not taking any damage. :-)


Map 20 "Traps" UV speed - 0:56
------------------------------

My favourite map of "Kama Sutra". Magnificent fight at the invuln, followed by an intense imp slaughter, and then the epic ending with the hill climb. Woo! :-)

I had great competition from Jochen on this map. After Grazza pointed out the trick jump (from the teleporter to the ledge with the Arachnotrons) which allows one to skip the blue key, I quickly did a 1:15, and uploaded it. Jochen then did 1:08. I replied with a 1:04 and later I did 1:01. Then Jochen replied with a 0:59, and finally I did this one. So, thank you very much for the competition -- together we pushed this one to a fast time! The start here was definitely so-so, but I was lucky with the ending (note the Cyber rocket brushing past me in the final ascent).

I should mention that Jochen discovered a trick possibility here, which saves probably at least 5-6 seconds (double AV jump to the BFG while invulnerable). The difficulty of that trick is very high, though, and succesfully including it in an otherwise hard run such as this is a daunting task.



Map 23 "A Little Big Massacre" UV speed - 0:12
----------------------------------------------

There's a design "bug" here, which allows for a quick speedrun. The back of the yellow key door is tagged as a normal door (not requiring a key). So, by waking up the Cyberdemon on the other side of this door, you can have it opened for you. Then it's just a matter of passing the Cyberdemon without it planting a rocket in your face. It was quite courteous on this occasion. ;-)


Map 29 "I'm Just a Doom Addict" UV speed - 2:56
-----------------------------------------------

This was one of three undone speedruns left (the other two: map 24 and map 31 secret exit). And when attempting it, I immediately understood why nobody had done this one yet. It's hopeless for speedrunning! Wonderful for max running, though. It's a large map, and I like the theme -- the "descent" into hell -- but there are lots of places you don't have to visit. That's not a bad thing when speedrunning, though...

The demo is just a table filler; a first exit after some hours of trying. I managed to screw up everywhere, I even missed the AV jump often (strafe-50 makes it easier, but it's still not easy. Timing is important!). I played carefully almost all the way through, but the demo is still slow and poor, even by my standards. For example, it took me 4 seconds to realise the Cyber at the end was dead... :-(


Map 32 "Anger Management" UV speed - 0:20
-----------------------------------------

This map is plain yet beautiful. Like something out of "Thy Flesh Consumed" perhaps, only more violent. The glide used here is very similar to the glide in map 05, "Klondike". It's hard to get a decent success rate for it, though, and that's probably why this demo is in the pack. The first part of the run isn't particularly fast -- I got stuck on some demons, for example -- but I got the glide to work in my first try. I had lots of quicker, better looking attempts where the trick just wouldn't work. Typical!


---


Map 09 "The Holocaust" UV pacifist - 0:18
-----------------------------------------

I dare say that UV pacifist wouldn't be possible in this map, had it not been for the wallrun. This was just something I did while attempting the map 9 speedrun. To those of you who think this is as easy as it looks in the demo: think again! ;-) It's almost impossible not to get caught on any monsters... I just got lucky here, that's all.


Map 18 "The Train Is Approaching" UV pacifist - 0:17
----------------------------------------------------

A natural extension of the speedrun. The only difference is that I didn't shoot at the zombiemen or the chaingunner at the end. They almost never cause problems anyway, so why shoot at them? Other than that, it's just the same run. I got a bit stuck in the final doorway, but I don't think it affected the final time.



---


Map 18 "The Train Is Approaching" NM speed - 0:18
-------------------------------------------------

The monsters tend to hit you harder than in UV, so you have to shoot some of them. This, combined with the fact that they're not generally as keen on moving out of the way for you, of course costs a little time. The soulsphere on this route -- it's down in that nukeage -- was probably added for NM speedrunning, but as you can see it is not needed (nor is the megasphere, heheh). I got stuck at the doorway at the end, but I was kindly helped to the exit quickly anyway. ;-) And I was lucky with the exact time...


Map 23 "A Little Big Massacre" NM speed - 0:13
----------------------------------------------

The difference between UV and NM is enormous for such a short run, even though you use the same route and the same trick. Strange. For one thing, the Cyberdemon invariably plunges a rocket in your face. Also, you can get held up by an Arachnotron right at the bend after grabbing the blue armour. In this attempt, I got lucky and survived the rocket blast, so I could pass the Cyber and exit the map. Note that I did get hit again, and died, just as I exited... BTW, this was my only successful attempt.


Map 25 "Cow Face" NM speed - 0:00
---------------------------------

On the one hand, this is the first demo I've ever recorded, that's optimal and unbeatable. So I should be happy, right? Well, on the other hand, Jochen's previous demo here, using the "intended" route, was a much classier, and more hard-worked run (that demo is also of course included in this pack, as it is still the fastest NM 100S demo). And I also know that this map is one of Jochen's favourites, so I want to apologize to him. After the trick was found, this was just unavoidable. :-/

Time is 0:00 instead of 0:01 because one of the Cybers fires immediately at you in NM (it takes a bit more time to fire in UV). All you need is a bit of luck to pass over the teleporting line and instead trigger the exit line.


Map 32 "Anger Management" NM speed - 0:31
-----------------------------------------

Just another NM equivalent of the UV speedrun. However, it's much harder to get to the exit part. You seldom reach it, and even if you do you have to hope that you can get the glide to work quickly. That's why this run, where it took me five attempts to get through, was the fastest exit I had during the short time I attempted it.

[Grazza]

Thanks - good stuff.

That leaves just radeg, method, gusta, dobber, vile (just two demos), ryback (1 demo). As long as I've got at least a fair proportion of the text from the Czech guys in time, I'll keep to the 21st June date.

[Grazza]

Kristian Ronge said:

Map 09 "The Holocaust" UV speed - 0:15

The wallrun trick seems to work only when strafing to the left, inward towards the wall. Strange...

It can be done facing either way (as you'd expect). It's possibly just a bit more awkward to line up when you're facing away from the wall.

[Kristian Ronge]

Very odd! I never got it to work, once (always fell short of reaching the other side). Okay, the text then should say:

"I only got the wallrun trick to work when strafing to the left, inward towards the wall."

Hope this doesn't cause any inconvience. Cheers!

[Angus Thermopyle]

I just did Map31 UV Speed (secret exit) in 3:39, almost a minute slower than the normal exit speedrun. The demo is better than nothing, but quite ugly, so I'll try to improve it tomorrow. Comment followes then.

My comment for Map31 UV Speed (normal exit) has to be changed (last sentence obviously deleted):
"One of my favourite KSutra maps. This is just a plane run to the exit without any tricks. It looks like there are some AV jump shortcuts possible, but I'm not so crazy to try it. Without this it's exciting enough :) It's not easy to get past the archviles in the southwest corner, you have to be very precise there. My demo is not bad (despite some faults featuring an imp and a badly timed BFG shot for a single revenant), but even with this route it should be sub-2:30 - for a better time take more risk with getting the red key, with the jump to the chaingunner building (I clear the area below before I jump because of blocking monsters) and try to use BFG only for the revenant hordes in the blue door zone (I was successful once)."

[Opulent]

Angus: http://www.doomworld.com/sda/dwdemo/ks31s339.zip

[Ryback]

Hey, is there some kind of deadline approaching or something?

General comments
----------------
I was very impressed with the overall quality of Kama Sutra, though I can't say I was surprised - speedrunners seem to have a knack for making great megawads (see HR, AV). Though it's a really difficult wad I think it's nearest rival would be Scythe, which was also well balanced for all kinds of gameplay. So you'll see quite a lot of variety in the demos on display here. Almost makes me wish I'd gotten around to doing more than one demo :)

Map 28 - Hard Target
--------------------
This is the really ultra-hard, huge-map-sized level from the megawad. You might be daunted by the size of the task ahead of you, but there's no real need to be because once you start playing it becomes clear there's only a few tough situations ahead (mostly involving the Cybers up on the bridge). Gameplay has been expertly juggled - you have *just enough* ammo and *just enough* radsuits to make it through. And amazingly, this level will even run on vanilla Doom2. I wouldn't recommend it though, disappearing sprites are a tiny problem...

[Gusta]

Grazza pls. wait a little while... I just have to force guys to hurry up with the comments, btw. Method said he got mark 2 from english so we could expect high quality reading :)

[Angus Thermopyle]

Map31 UV Speed (secret exit) improved to 3:21.

My comment:
"I don't know why I thought this would be too hard. I kill all revenants in front of the blue door, so there aren't any behind me when I go for the cyberdemon. It's not necessary to kill him, but every time I tried to go straight to the secret exit he shot me just after teleporting. Finally this should be only a few seconds slower than the normal exit speedrun."