Any decent ZDoom frontends around?

[Maes]

If someone knows of a frontend that includes as many options as ZDoom Launcher, but with none of the bugs, please break his silence...pretty please.

ZDoom Launcher is pretty old by now, and, at least for me, it exhibits the following consistent bugs:

• Midi music volume always starts at 0 with either ZDoom, GZDoom and ZDoomGL, using the launcher's sound settings doesn't seem to work.
  
• Sometimes it "forgets" where the ZDoom (or whatever) exe is when I load another configuration.
  
• A lot of other minor annoyances of that kind
  

So, really, isn't there a better frontend out there???

[TheDarkArchon]

ZDL sounds like it fits the bill.

[Maes]

TheDarkArchon said:

ZDL sounds like it fits the bill.

I know about that one, but it misses the "same features as ZDoom Launcher with none of the bugs" part, e.g. it doesn't have resolution and sound controls :-(

Really...I remember in 1994-1996 there was a crapton of frontends, how come today there are just 2-3 known ones and all far from "complete" ?

[Catoptromancy]

http://www.zdoom.org/wiki/index.php?title=Frontend

How often do you change resolution to need it to be selectable from the launcher?
Pick sound controls while not even in the game sounds like a hassle since you cant even hear what your adjusting.

ZDL is all anyone should need.

[Enjay]

And ZDL does support these features because it has an easily accessible command line box which supports all the command line options. For example, add -width 1024 -height 768 (or whatever) to it if you desperately feel the need to change the screen size at startup.

ZDL is what most frontends fail to be: simple and easy to use. The main reason for that is that it isn't litered with thousands of tick boxes and options like some other launchers are.

[Maes]

Enjay said:

And ZDL does support these features because it has an easily accessible command line box which supports all the command line options.

Ouch, did somebody just say "command line" ?

I've been using that since 198-something, but saying that "in the end, with the mighty command line you can do everything!" kinda defeats the purpose of a front-end.

About resolution: OK, I don't change that much, but some settings are not in-game at least for ZDoom ports (e.g. number of sound channels) plus using ZDoom Launcher, ZDoom "forgets" about the music volume.

I rest my case :-(

[Enjay]

Maes said:

saying that "in the end, with the mighty command line you can do everything!" kinda defeats the purpose of a front-end.

I disagree entirely. The command line is the most powerful frontend of them all. Pages of tickboxes and radio buttons are slower and less intuitive IMO, especially when you know that all it is doing is adding stuff to a command line anyway. For me, a frontend takes away the hassle of finding files and typing long, cumbersome path names. The rest I can, and want to, do myself. Before windows XP I never used a frontend. In the good old DOS days, I used to type:

doom -file mywad.wad

I rarely used the other parameters, possibly -warp and -nomonsters when wanting to quickly test a map.

After a while, with the advent of Windows, that became:

zdoom -file c:\windows\desktop\mywad.wad

Which wasn't too bad, but by the time it became:

zdoom -file "F:\Documents and Settings\Nigel_Rowand\Desktop\mywad.wad"

things had gotten very silly - especially when loading multiple WADs.

I still rarely use parameters other than -warp and -nomonsters and even then, I don't use them very often. Anyway, they are short and easy to type. Something that removes the annoyance of those long path names yet which leaves me with the power, speed and ease of the command line is exactly what I need.

[Maes]

Enjay said:

The command line is the most powerful frontend of them all.

The command line is the most raw and minimal (in terms of aids and shortcuts) level of interaction between the user and the machine, a front-end is any program or part of a program designed to speed up this.

from Wikipedia

• Many programs are divided conceptually into front and back ends, but in most cases, the "back-end" is hidden from the user. However, sometimes programs are written which serve simply as a front-end to another, already existing program, such as a graphical user interface (GUI) which is built on top of a command-line interface.
  

The command line might be powerful, but it doesn't classify as a DOOM front end in the most common sense.

It is surely more friendly to use than hardcoding parameters into the .exe or to memory in hex with a debugger, and in that sense it acts as a "frontend" between the user and the DOOM ending at startup, but we're talking about FRONTENDS FOR THE DOOM COMMAND LINE ITSELF HERE.

About WAD paths...just unzip them to your doom directory, or to a root-level directory.

[Graf Zahl]

Maes said:

we're talking about FRONTENDS FOR THE DOOM COMMAND LINE ITSELF HERE.

The problem is, the front end has to know everything about the executable it is supposed to start - and that's not going to happen. Even with the best frontend available you will occasionally still need to specify command line parameters manually.

[Maes]

Graf Zahl said:

The problem is, the front end has to know everything about the executable it is supposed to start - and that's not going to happen. Even with the best frontend available you will occasionally still need to specify command line parameters manually.

Excuse me, but isn't knowing *everything* (or almost) about its intended target executable the premise behind every useful frontend?

I can dig up some old frontends from the 90s that are as complete as modern ones, which in most cases only have additional support for multiple source ports, and (usually) support all known vanilla command line parameters, and lack the now obsolete modem parameters settings. Oh, and long filename support ;-)

Even ZDoom Launcher, which is namesake designed around ZDoom, fails miserably in supporting all of its tickboxed options - especially the sound related ones seem to be there just for shows.

Really, I can't believe that the current situation of Doom frontends can be described as "STFU and be grateful, n00b", and that the two "hottest" frontends around are ZDoom Launcher from the year 2000 and the functional, although minimal, ZDLaunch.

[Belial]

Meh, launchers, typing stuff in the command-line is faster anyway.

[myk]

Belial said:
Meh, launchers, typing stuff in the command-line is faster anyway.

Yeah, or at least much more universal, plus with ZDoom's drag and drop support, and its console that lets you set practically anything, a launcher is even less necessary. But there will always be launchers because they allow less expert users to organize the available options (I remember when I used the DOS launchers like Doomit or whatever they were called, back in the 90s).

[Maes]

So, everyone is telling, in different words, that Doom (and source-port) frontends are what they are, and that in the end the mighty command line and console can do everything, so who cares if frontends lack some options or if those offered don't really works (stares at ZDoom launcher).

So this basically means that only Doomsday and Risen engine ports come with built-in and fully-fledged frontends that control everything from number of sound channels to OpenGL, and that ZDoom ports are stuck with incomplete frontend.

[Graf Zahl]

Yes. And if you ask the same people they get annoyed by Doomsday's and Risen3D's frontends.

Most ZDoom users are quite happy with ZDL - because it's the complete opposite in design of the two aforementioned ones.

[Lobo]

You could always just get yourself a more generic frontend and add in any commands which might be missing for the particular port you're using. A decent front end should allow for that kind of "future compatibility" anyway, IMHO.
Sure you're adding some stuff "manually", but only once and then the frontend will remember it for the enxt time.

ESL(the frontend I made) allows for that, since the commands are stored in a simple, nicely commented xml file, so go ahead and try it out if you want.

The most complete command list included with the zip is the EDGE one, but like I said, all you need to do is edit the ZDoom.xml file in the /data directory to add the specific commands you want(and delete the ones you don't want).

An example command entry would be:
<ARGUMENT NAME="HEAPSIZE" DESCRIPTION="Size in megabytes of the zone memory managers heap" TYPE="VALUE">HEAPSIZE</ARGUMENT>


The link to my site is in my sig.

[Hobbs]

I use the ultimate launcher, its called Run...

[DaniJ]

Well all I know is that I use Snowberry (Doomsday's launcher) every day and I never need to resort to the command line for anything and I'm a developer :P

[Graf Zahl]

DaniJ said:

Well all I know is that I use Snowberry (Doomsday's launcher) every day and I never need to resort to the command line for anything and I'm a developer :P

Don't judge your own programs. :P Normally they tend to do what you need. ;)


(And for those who are interested: I use Doom ports via command line only. Inevitably this means that those ports which can't be comforably started that way (Doomsday and Risen3D) get very rarely used.)

[DaniJ]

Don't judge your own programs. :P Normally they tend to do what you need. ;)

Ah but I didn't write Snowberry therefore I can judge it (It was written by Skyjake and his team as a uni project).

Inevitably this means that those ports which can't be comforably started that way (Doomsday and Risen3D) get very rarely used.

By you maybe but there is very little reason to use the commandline when the same can be accomplished via a GUI which you don't need to remember all the arguments/syntax rules/filepaths etc for (and have to constantly re-type each time you want to play).

Not to mention that Snowberry has a lot more to offer than being just a glorified "Play" button.

Proclaiming the commandline as the ultimate user interface is rather odd in this day and age. I must assume that you don't use either your Start menu or shortcuts either? :P

Besides, you don't count as you're not a typical user.

[Graf Zahl]

DaniJ said:
By you maybe but there is very little reason to use the commandline when the same can be accomplished via a GUI which you don't need to remember all the arguments/syntax rules/filepaths etc for (and have to constantly re-type each time you want to play).

Still not my style. Games that treated me with a Windows front end always bothered me. I'd prefer solutions that allow me to set as much as possible inside the game itself (via menu or CVARs) The more that is to be selected before actually starting thw game, the worse.

Proclaiming the commandline as the ultimate user interface is rather odd in this day and age. I must assume that you don't use either your Start menu or shortcuts either? :P

Start menu: rarely. The way most software installs itself it gets quite unorganized rather quickly and requires constant maintenance.
Desktop shortcuts: Basically never. The desktop is nearly always obstructed so it's not a convenient means to start applications.
I have copied all the programs I frequently need into the quick launch bar at the bottom of the screen but I still prefer the old fashioned approach (browsing directories and clicking on the .EXE file.)

Besides, you don't count as you're not a typical user.

Sadly, the typical user today has no clue what to do with his computer and starts moaning as soon as he hears the word 'command line'. If he doesn't get his little icons to click on he's completely lost.
Thank god I am not one of those. I still know how to use a computer for real. :P

[myk]

DaniJ said:
Besides, you don't count as you're not a typical user.

Well, this is DOOM, not computers in general. I've no issues with the implementation and use of launchers, but the command line, DOOM's universal launching mode, should always be supported, and many (if not most; at least it's a majority or the largest minority due to its fundamental existence) people well enough into the game do and will use it regularly.

Graf Zahl said:
(And for those who are interested: I use Doom ports via command line only. Inevitably this means that those ports which can't be comforably started that way (Doomsday and Risen3D) get very rarely used.)

How so? Some time back I was testing some stuff under Risen3D, and I eventually got tired of the launcher resetting something that annoyed me, and started loading it through the command line. You can even use a response file (I call it R, though an extension can be added) to add all the usual commands, so all you need to type is bin\risen3d @r, plus any other incidental commands you might need that time in particular, or you can edit the R file, or disable commands in it by inserting a | after the dash. Another similar option would be a batch file, or a shortcut, editing its command line entry in its Properties tab.

[ducon]

Graf Zahl said:

Sadly, the typical user today has no clue what to do with his computer and starts moaning as soon as he hears the word 'command line'. If he doesn't get his little icons to click on he's completely lost.

Just move the icon and he will get lost. If your are sadist, change the icon.
Worse: Remove the IE icon and replace it with the FF icon. The n3wB will complain because the internet has disappeared.

I play Doom only with the command line.

[Catoptromancy]

I see really no reason to only use command line. My wads are set to open with ZDL, all I do is double click a wad in any folder and press enter. Done.
To play or record demos I use the ZDL command line box. Works just as good.

Clicking a wad and pressing enter is just like using the command prompt without doing any typing.

With the new ZDoom I dont even bother with ZDL much anymore. I just right click a .zip file and open with ZDoom.

Why make more steps to take for the same results. Might as well erase all your shortcuts and only open programs directly from thier folder.

[myk]

Catoptromancy said:
Why make more steps to take for the same results.

As you'll note by my post above once you know how to use the command line fully you don't need "extra steps" and have full command over how to start the game up. It's like the difference between a user that sticks only to the ingame menu and another that also regularly edits the INI/CFG file manually. The latter can change anything, the former has limited options. Launchers are useful because they make it easy for people getting started, but they can hardly manage all the options unless they become quite cluttered: That's why we have this dichotomy between ZDL (a basic launcher) and the Risen3D/Doomsday launchers (more robust).

And in ZDoom's case the command line can be even more powerful, since you can add some console commands to it. I'm not telling you to use the command line, but if you look into all its possibilities you'll eventually note it can be optimized to a point of combining great power and speed. A simple command line with DosKey capabilities is already very effective (I use that alone unless the command line needs to be more complex.) And once you know how to use it, it applies to any DOOM engine (plus or minus new commands, but the procedure is the same).

Might as well erase all your shortcuts and only open programs directly from thier folder.

Up to a point, sure, at least the Desktop looks alright then (I generally leave it clear except as a dump for newly downloaded, unchecked files). I'd rather use a well organized Programs menu or other means (might be the command line).

The only DOOM engine I consistently do use a launcher for is ZDaemon, but then ,it would be kind of silly to try to connect to the regularly changing servers through the command line.

[Catoptromancy]

Well you do have shortcuts for command line. But for my purposes ZDL is still somewhat faster for me. I have way too many wads in various folders, so even trying to remember what folders they were in can be a slight hassle to use command line with. I see a wad in a folder I click it.
The few the pwads I currently regularly play are Zips on my taskbar, a simple right click and open with ZDoom bypasses a launcher or command line. A quick F3 and I am already playing. Having no need for the CMD, launcher or even unzipping the wad is probably the fastest way to play a quick game.

The command line I agree is very useful but I like the speed of almost instant gameplay.

I have only the 3 icons on my desktop, the ones my computer wont let me erase. Taskbar is quicker access. I have all my downloads go to desktop so I can organize them easily.

[CODOR]

ducon said:
I play Doom only with the command line.

cmd.exe is the fourth entry on my Start Menu's list of often-used programs.

The best part? If I want to see what a level looks like in different ports, I type one command line and run it (using tab-completion where necessary), press the up arrow, then backspace over the "chocolate-d" and type "prb" or "gzd"...

[Graf Zahl]

Finally someone who knows how to use the available tools efficiently. ;)

[Lobo]

Just get over it: all the original poster wanted is a possible alternative to ZDoom Launcher, not a rant on the (supposed) benefits of the commandline.

If he wants a GUI launcher then there's no need to harp on at him about why he shouldn't use one.

Reminds me of a guy I knew that insisted on using pkzip from the commandline and typing out the file name and the switches, instead of just right-clicking the damn zip: of course he just did that to try and show-off how computer-literate he was...

[Hobbs]

Lobo said:

Reminds me of a guy I knew that insisted on using pkzip from the commandline and typing out the file name and the switches, instead of just right-clicking the damn zip: of course he just did that to try and show-off how computer-literate he was...

You realize that A) PKZip doesnt require switches plural to unpack files, at least not versions I used, and B) That using the command line can sometimes yield better compression than the paltry amount of options the dialogue box offers.

[Joe]

I use the EE frontend in windows and the command line in linux. I'd use the command line in windows but the shell sucks the big one.