risen3d licencing discussion

[Craigs]

Quite frankly, what I really want to know is WHY he was hiding the source code. Why is it so important to him that nobody views the source code, that he would completely break the law by doing so, and when he DOES learn he has broken the law, he completely undoes all his hard work?

[Yagisan]

chilvence said:

Oh dear. I'm not trying to debate whats legal and what isn't or whats right and wrong. I'm just trying to point out the obvious perspective that everyone else is avoiding because you're all so quick to defend your position in the right that the actual events don't seem to matter at all.

I don't think anyone is avoiding the perspective you have. It is simply that GJ was aware of the obligations when he took the Doomsday source to make Risen3D, and he chose to ignore them for over 3 years. Risen3D has not been the only fork of Doomsday - Koraxs Heritage also comes to mind - it is however one of two that deliberately violated the license. (The other being Deeps R3Dedit)

chilvence said:

GJ broke the rule by working in hiding. From the start, it would have been something so simple as not having much to show, so what would be the point in uploading source.

The point being that it is the only way he can legally use the Doomsday source. Every time Risen3D is redistributed the source must be made available on request. We requested repeatedly - he choose not to comply for his reasons that he chooses not to share with us.

chilvence said:

The problem here is you instantly latch on to that without using your heads. The more you bang at someones doorstep, the less likely they are to welcome you with a smile and a hello. He was probably thinking 'sod off, you can have a look when I've actually got it working how I want it. now stop pissing and moaning'.

In that case then, he does not have a license to the code. Simply put - he should write his own engine from scratch if that is what he wishes to do - not take a GPL engine, make his changes and then fail to comply with the license.

In the end, he did comply with the license - he choose to comply by ceasing distribution.

chilvence said:

So have I wrote the right or wrong answer or has anyone understood something here?

Whilst we can see your point of view, the GPL explicitly states that you must release the source on demand to the people you distribute the binaries to. As a result, this is not a legally viable option for him to take.

[LexiMax]

chilvence said:

So have I wrote the right or wrong answer or has anyone understood something here?

So wait, we're supposed to feel sorry for a thief and egomaniac? How he felt personally is completely irrelivent to the issue at hand.

[myk]

chilvence said:
From the start, it would have been something so simple as not having much to show, so what would be the point in uploading source.

This is your assumption, and not a fact.

The problem here is you instantly latch on to that without using your heads.

How presumptuous.

He was probably thinking 'sod off, you can have a look when I've actually got it working how I want it.

Again, you're assuming. He could have been thinking that by waiting a few years to release the source he'd be opening the way for the Lord to return from Heaven, even. Or he could have had a mix or propietary and GPLed code in the source, or he could merely have been listening to deep about legal squibbles, maybe receiving some sort of remuneration as a reward to keep it closed, or he could have considered the GPL nonsense and thought to keep the source to himself due to some sort of pride or particular idea of copyrights, or all of the above, or something else.

I'm just trying to point out the obvious perspective that everyone else is avoiding because you're all so quick to defend your position in the right that the actual events don't seem to matter at all.

Wait a minute, one thing is the "perspective of GJ" (an assumed one; even if he were to express it, more so if his position is ambiguous), and another the events (what people do; what really matters).

Also, like I said before, the position of the various people here is not fixed and hasn't been merely because you state so. I told you already about my case in particular; just scroll through the thread and you'll see I made several inquiries, and even criticisms of the Doomsday side, deliberating what conclusions to make according to the circumstances (and those are just posts that don't reduce what I think, so you still have space to assume from there before drawing conclusions). In a parallel fashion, other people's thoughts on this have been going on for up to three years. Thanks for reducing all that to "you're not using your heads" based on an assumption of what GJ might have been thinking.

[fraggle]

chilvence said:

Oh dear. I'm not trying to debate whats legal and what isn't or whats right and wrong. I'm just trying to point out the obvious perspective that everyone else is avoiding because you're all so quick to defend your position in the right that the actual events don't seem to matter at all.

GJ broke the rule by working in hiding. From the start, it would have been something so simple as not having much to show, so what would be the point in uploading source. The problem here is you instantly latch on to that without using your heads. The more you bang at someones doorstep, the less likely they are to welcome you with a smile and a hello. He was probably thinking 'sod off, you can have a look when I've actually got it working how I want it. now stop pissing and moaning'.


So have I wrote the right or wrong answer or has anyone understood something here?

So are we supposed to beg to him for the source, something that we're entitled to? Look at this from the other side of the coin. You can say that people were too nasty to him and could have been nicer, but actions speak louder than words. He's shown far more contempt and disrespect for the Doomsday authors by totally ignoring their wishes. Furthermore, the way he's "thrown his toys out of the pram" here shows how much respect he has for the people that actually use his port - now the people who made levels for it are unable to play them, apparently because he's more interested in trying to make his critics look bad for "killing Risen3D".

Besides, hadn't he been promising the source code for two years now? At what point are people supposed to stop being patient?

[kristus]

Well, the project is back and the source appears to have been released.

http://r3d.doomwadstation.com/

[Anders]

I wonder what all the drama was about in the first place. Why didn't he just release the source right away when people, who's code he had used, asked for it?

My guess is that he had code in there that he really wasn't allowed to use, and then he used the "i quit" drama to get some time to reimplement those parts.

[kristus]

My guess is that he hoped that his little emo trick where he tried to make people feel guilty about requesting the code would work and then that he would be able to continue with his charade. But when that obviously didn't work he just gave up and went with it.

[Bastet Furry]

You know what that means?
Oooohhh deeEEEEEeeep!!!!! Wheres the source to r3dedit? *eg*

[myk]

kristus said:
My guess

Why even guess? You never know, and you could be wrong in your assumption.

[kristus]

That's why I said it was my guess. *meep* *meep*

[CODOR]

Seems like the source has been cleaned up (apparently from an earlier version that wasn't deleted) and proper credits have been added for the various parts (it could be that this was ignored when they were initially imported, and had to be added again more recently). It also looks like the code was audited for licenses, and one or two bits might have been removed. (It's also implied that they used the original-licensed source from Boom 2.01. Is this available anywhere?)

ReadMe.txt says:

All the imported code used to develop Risen3D originates from Doom, Boom v2.10, ZDoom123beta33-src. Note that in the zdoom.txt contained in the 123beta33-src it is stated as being ZDOOM v1.22 December 12, 1999 (all released in the period 1998 to 1999) or code in Doomsday v1.7.08 which provides the main base. In the case of Doomsday it has been assumed that where no accreditation has been stated within a .c file and where that file's code is not based on functionality within the original Doom source (e.g. sound, models, particles) that the sole author is Jaakko Keränen. This exercise was undertaken in order to ensure that all 3rd party code contained in the source is licensed under the GPL or can be freely used with no restriction to prevent it being placed under the GPL (as this is a condition of the GPL) and that authors are properly accredited using a copyright notice (which is also required by the GPL). This has meant that being able to edit maps with a BEHAVIOR lump is no longer supportd.

Has anyone actually tried compiling it yet? I lack Visual C++...

[Yagisan]

I would like to be one of the first to publicly thank the Risen3D team, and in particular, Abbs (thanks for those private emails mate).


Deep - I'm still looking for the code to R3Dedit that I downloaded. Where may I find it.

[Quasar]

I think deep is somewhere deep in the Losers forum and so probably cannot see this ;)

[Bloodshedder]

I think you're wrong.

[CODOR]

Yagisan said:
I would like to be one of the first to publicly thank the Risen3D team, and in particular, Abbs (thanks for those private emails mate).

Yes, excellent work on doing the Right Thing™ and allowing Risen3D to join the other Free Software Doom ports.

Speaking of which, I suppose this can be changed (again)...

[Aliotroph?]

Well, this is nice news. I have no idea what went on to make this happen but thanks to whoever was behind it! It makes the community feel more whole. :)

[RTC_Marine]

well, its nice to know that the r3d dev(s) have come to their senses, I myself am kind of happy they have seen the light.

also, shouldn't the zdoom ports on the freedoom page be under a "mixed-bag" license?

[fraggle]

kristus said:

Well, the project is back and the source appears to have been released.

http://r3d.doomwadstation.com/

Excellent. Thanks to Graham Jackson for doing the right thing.

[RjY]

Wow, who could have seen this coming? Thanks to all involved.

[entryway]

yeah! There are no dead ports.

[Bastet Furry]

entryway said:

yeah! There are no dead ports.

*hint* DoomWars *hint*

[Mindless Rambler]

As glad as I am that Risen3D is back, I know now that I can' act like a valiant hero who managed to get the last few copies of Risen3D available and give it to all my friends... :p