Heretic demos (non-demopack and NM)

[Xindage]

Guys i beated the episode 1 speerun by Veo time in youtube, i did episode 1 in 6:47~ veo did 6:51, whiout e1m8 is Me: 6:16 / veo 6:22 (UV Speed)

 

Due to a inventory glitch possible to do in e1m5 is possible to make e1m6 and ahead be done extreme fast. Note: i'm a novice speedrunner has you can see in my demo, so a lot can be improved yet, i'll try maybe but i not promisse.

Demo in attachment. Video: my friend put wr but i'm not sure of it

 

 

Times obtained from demo:

e1m1 = 0:31
e1m2 = 1:26
e1m3 = 0:51
e1m4 = 0:47
e1m5 = 1:27
e1m6 = 0:28
e1m7 = 0:49

 

Veo's times:

e1m1 = 0:28
e1m2 = 1:17
e1m3 = 0:47
e1m4 = 0:46
e1m5 = 0:50
e1m6 = 1:09
e1m7 = 1:05

 

Is this a new WR of episode 1 run?

SRT2.zip

Edited March 16, 2018 by Xindage
Add video

[PVS]

It's interesting, more than 23 years after game release, someone finds something new for me, new trick-bug in my favorite Heretic! I watched this demo and I understood how this happens and that this is the original engine error, another one :) I've never seen information about such wings trick and never paid attention to myself, something like - it is possible to leave "one wings" for the next map (in certain circumstances) in movie runs/demos, it's really interesting...

Xindage, did you find this trick yourself or this information written somewhere? I counted your demo time - it turns out to be 6:19 (without E1M8), not 6:16, right? What game engine (or game exe) did you use to record this demo?

If by "WR" you mean "world record" - then yes, your time is the fastest at this moment, for E1 speed movie run on Smite-Meister (Skill-4). I don't see the reason - do not allow this demo for Heretic-N and DSDA databases, in my opinion - this is a new trick-bug in the original game engine. In any case, if someone does not agree, then let them say their opinion.
 

[Xindage]

well i found this bug whiout lie several years ago, probably when i had 8 years old, i was a kid and i just had heretic demo version, so i played lot of times this episode, learned lot of stuff, so days ago i was talking with a friend about glitchs in heretic and hexen and i remenbered this wing bug them i thinked why not abuse this in speedrun and there's. ^^
Actully you guys discovered lot of glitchs in doom so i thinked heretic was the same and looks like not. just to say i'm 22 now so i had this glitch with me for like 14 year.

Edit Awsnering questions:chocolate heretic dev version.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Xindage

[JCD]

Heretic Episode 1 in 5:21 (5:52 with e1m8)

h1sp-521.zip

[GoneAway]

Awesome!

Btw if anyone is interested, you can compare movies by level times here

I think it's pretty cool to see the progression and how things compare in that sense.

[Hitherto]

Hello d'world

h4m1 "Catafalque" now properly maxed :)

 

skill 4 in 7:15

skill 5 in 8:15

NoMo in 1:01.71 as a bonus

Edited April 2, 2019 by Hitherto

[Batawi]

Hello everyone!

I coming to you from speedrun.com with desire of running Heretic using demos instead of video capture. Few questions tho:

1. Should I use Heretic1.3 + vvheretic4 running on DosBox or Chocolate-Heretic 3.0.0 will be fine? Or maybe there is some another reasonable way of playing Heretic nowadays?

2. Can I create demo of multiple episode run? Unless there is no such category in this world.

3. Uploading the runs are done by putting them on this forum I assume?

4. Is there better option for converting demo to video than just playbacking demo and recording it?

5. Is there a way to show time of a run basing only on a demo file?

6. Is there a way to show time of a current run (inside the game)?

6. Is there something like "auto-splitter"?

 

Or maybe I should just simply ask - what is your speedrunning setup? :D

 

Wow, thats actually a lot of questions, didn't expect that xD. This world of speedrunning using demos is such a new area for me.

Sorry for my english and thank you for your time.

[GoneAway]

I can answer some of these, but others will have to tackle the rest.

 

2) You cannot create a multiple-episode demo. Thus, as a category that isn't tracked anywhere (afaik). This doesn't mean that you can't for instance record a separate demo for each episode, one after the other, and post them together. But we don't really track that kind of run at the moment.

3) Yes, post your runs here and they will be uploaded (make sure to include a text file when you do - see other posts for examples).

4) For doom, the prboom+ port can actually convert a demo into a video. Unfortunately we don't have that option for heretic, so you would probably just play the demo back and capture it with obs (or alternatives).

5) There is no way to tell the time of a demo purely from the demo file. This is because it tracks your input frames on the intermission screen as well. Thus two demos with identical in-game-time may have different sized demo files.

[Opulent]

PVS and Kraflab are the Heretic experts.

1) Yes, Heretic1.3+vvherectic4 is the "real" way to record.  All of the Heretic-capable ports have some issues(but not many).  Heretic-plus, Chocolate-Heretic, CrispyHeretic, and jHeretic are all very close approximations of the real game, although as with any windows-managed source port, they allow a lot of "player-skill-enhancing features" in comparison to the real game.   If I was to suggest a method to use for you, I'd suggest using the CrispyHeretic modification that is indicated here:   http://opulentdemos.us/fpsdemos/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=59

2) Nope, you cannot record a multi-episode run.  I assume some versions of zdoom/gzdoom/zandronum/? can do this though.

5) with the -demoextend parameter, you can see the exit times.  Also, LMPC can determine the demo-length. 

6) PVS' port also has on-screen timing, I think.

 

[GoneAway]

I've been working on a new feature: table view.

 

This shows just an overview of the records for each map for a chosen category, so you can see the best times at a glance (and also see gaps where nothing is recorded).

 

It isn't fully operational yet (need cross-listing from other categories when there is a match for instance), but it's enough to show for anyone interested.

 

https://dsdarchive.com/wads/heretic/table_view?category=Pacifist

[Batawi]

Thanks for reply.

Two more questions came to my head.

1. To start recording I should use those parameters "-warp 1 1 -skill 4 -demoextend -longtics -record demoname" ?

2. Can I start new record session from inside the game? It seems like there is a lot work to do if I want to restart my run.

 

Kraflab, this table is really nice feature ;).

[GoneAway]

1) Longtics wasn't available in the original game while recording, so I wouldn't use this parameter (or someone correct me if I'm wrong).

 

2) You'll need to exit the game to restart. It seems frustrating at first but you'll get so used to it that you don't notice it 😀

 

And thanks 🙂

[PVS]

I think longtics is not original even for Doom, not? Of course, if version 1.91 is not considered an original.

Batawi
I see -demoextend command in your example, most likely you are using Chocolate/Crispy Heretic. If you decide to record without longtics, then you need not forget add -shortticfix parameter when recording, this will help a little against the original Heretic bug with a slow left turn for mouse/keyboard.

kraflab
This category table view is good, I like this. Only I have not understood yet - do you have a demos-type filter there - vanilla, zdoom, etc. format? Because, I do not see much sense in comparing demos time in vanilla vs zdoom format. Another funny question - how to get to these category tables from the DSDA main page? something I didn’t find this way :)
 

[GoneAway]

I haven't added a link to the view yet while I'm still playing it, but will add it to the wad pages eventually (and maybe a direct link for iwads from the home page?). Filtering out demos with the wrong compatibility is an important point, I'll have to make sure that's considered.

[Batawi]

Hi guys.

I have problem watching Vincent Catalaa NoMo demos (for example E1M3). Monsters appears in those demos causing desync. Is there a way to fix it?

[PVS]

Heretic 1.3:
heretic.exe -playdemo h1o33674 -nomonsters

Chocolate Heretic:
chocolate-heretic.exe -playdemo h1o33674 -nomonsters
 

[Batawi]

Well, that was obvious. I tried:

heretic.com -playdemo demo -nomonsters

but didn't work.

 

Thanks :).

[PVS]

vvHeretic4 can't playback Heretic 1.3 -nomonsters and -respawn demos, he can playback only his own demos recorded in these modes, it's vvHeretic4 demo header read bug. Original Heretic 1.3 can playback his own and vvHeretic4 -nomonsters and -respawn demos, if you use DOS/DosBox - run Heretic 1.3 (Heretic.exe, it present in your folder anyway) instead of vvHeretic4 (Heretic.com) in your command line and you will not have problems.
 

[Batawi]

PVS, thanks for clarification.

 

Here is my first demo pack :D

ep1_nomo.zip

[PVS]

Good demos, almost all results are close to the best, some are the best time. Something weird with E1M2 demo, E1M1 on skill-3, you recording these demos in DosBox?

Correct level times:
E1M1: 0:26.94 (skill-3)
E1M2: 1:02.11 (strange header, skill byte 'FC', playback as skill-5) best time
E1M3: 0:37.77 (skill-4)
E1M4: 0:31.83 (skill-4)
E1M5: 0:39.66 (skill-4)
E1M6: 0:51.91 (skill-4) best time
E1M6s: 0:54.80 (skill-4) best time
E1M7: 0:53.31 (skill-4)
E1M9: 0:59.91 (skill-4)

I personally always liked NoMo, something special, face to face with map, running Corvus at the Olympics, hehe. No comments in txt's, why? Few people are interested in recording vanilla demos for this game, so it's always interesting to see a new person in business, thanks.

If you plan to continue NoMo recording, then it is better to do it right by all the rules: skill-4, recording without intermission screen on Heretic 1.3 or Chocolate/Crispy Heretic without -demoextend. NoMo demos timed as 0:00.xx, so the intermission screen is not desirable, after timing such demos using any external lmp tools. As an alternative, possible find correct level time using this small Chocolate modification, it saves level time to a log file, but this is old 2.3.0 version and may have problems with new Windows OS.

Chocolate Heretic/Hexen 2.3.0 (special editions): versions contains fixes and additions for demo playback/recording:
Chocolate-Heretic-230(se).zip

Chocolate-Hexen-230(se).zip

Edited March 20, 2020 by PVS

[Batawi]

Don't know why these skills are messed up, huge chance I made a mistake. And yes, everything was done on DosBox.

I didn't put comments probably because I first record these maps and then made txt files, and zipped everything up. Next time I will correct that routine.

 

5 hours ago, PVS said:

recording without intermission screen on Heretic 1.3 or Chocolate/Crispy Heretic without -demoextend.

 

By "Heretic 1.3" you meant "Heretic 1.3 without vv hack"?

Is there any reasonable way to check time when recording on DosBox and without intermission screen?

 

I like NoMo very much, probably will record something more in future :).

 

 

[GoneAway]

Thanks a ton for listing all the times PVS! And of course thanks to Batawi for the demos, NoMo is a great category 🙂

 

Fyi I'm on vacation at the moment, but I will mirror these on the archive when I'm back 😉

[PVS]

11 hours ago, Batawi said:

By "Heretic 1.3" you meant "Heretic 1.3 without vv hack"?

Is there any reasonable way to check time when recording on DosBox and without intermission screen?

Yes, I mean Heretic 1.3 without vvHeretic4 (or vv hack), under recording vanilla game exit after level is finished, in demo not recorded intermission screen and you have the correct level time in this case. After recording need use lmp programs to find the demos time: old LmpFid14 (in attachment) only for vanilla demos, lmpc 3.4.4 possible take from this page: http://opulentdemos.us/ofda/ofda_tools.php

Also, possible use any other lmp programs that support Heretic demos or use choco Heretic from my post above. I.e., variants is there, how much they easy and reasonable - decide youself, but for NoMo category time accuracy in seconds is not enough, these are general rules as far as I know.

kraflab
Find demos time not difficult for me, no problems.
 

LmpFid14.zip

[GoneAway]

Dropping by with another work-in-progress feature: leaderboards. This will probably be more relevant to doom because there have been more players, but I'm testing it out with heretic anyway.

 

https://www.dsdarchive.com/wads/heretic/leaderboard?level=Ep 1&category=SM Speed

 

Instead of showing all the demos, it just shows the best by each player, so a player can easily see where they stand compared to everyone else. I know some people like these kind of things and others don't care at all, but there it is :^)

[Redneckerz]

On 6/12/2017 at 12:05 AM, PVS said:

jHeretic 0.93 - beta version from 2000 and this is latest version compatible with vanilla Heretic 1.3 demo format, this version can not play back newer Doomsday demos. "se" this is my small hobby project which I do sometimes, under "se" I mean - special edition, nothing more. For play back this demos not necessary have jHeretic, this is vanilla compatible demos, can be used Heretic 1.3/vvHeretic4/Chocolate Heretic/etc. To date, I do not have 100% compatibility with the original Heretic, a number of restrictions, etc. This version remains the old port for old windows systems, I do not want unnecessary problems for people, for this reason I'm not public this version, this is just a hobby for me.

Perhaps the biggest bump known to man, but i am going to do it anyway.

 

I have been researching source ports/exe modifications/and other stuff and thus aware of vvheretic, and recently started looking at TAS and other speedrunner related stuff. As of recent i came across your jHeretic 0.93 SE version - That you have been using for several demoruns.

 

For an up and coming entry on the DoomWiki (TAS stuff is heavily underappreciated there!) regarding TAS tools and ports, this is the kind of work i am interested in. What is enhanced over regular jHeretic 0.93? I can also imagine this port being interesting for legacy systems.

 

I very much would like to know more about this, would it be okay to write you a PM for more details?

[PVS]

I realized what interests you, but I do not have any TAS features that are present in PrBoom-Plus for example. I think, it's not what you're looking for. I don’t think that such TAS Heretic/Hexen ports is exist, at least compatible with original demo format, at one time I searched, launched and tested many of them, if not all, but I hope that I'm wrong, heh

Original jHeretic 0.93 not fully compatible with original game, it can playback 30-40% of existing vanilla Heretic demos, have all original limits for record/playback, etc. This was my main task - to find and try to fix. An interesting feature of this old jHeretic is that - it does not need a restart for record/playback demos, you can do it in real time as many times as you need, which I really like.

If something else is interesting you - ask where it is convenient for you, in PM or here, this is not a secret project at all. I can even leave it here, but as I said before - this old port can only work on Win95-XP, whoever needs it today, no one will even be able to run it on their Win10, only spend their time.
 

[Redneckerz]

10 hours ago, PVS said:

If something else is interesting you - ask where it is convenient for you, in PM or here, this is not a secret project at all. I can even leave it here, but as I said before - this old port can only work on Win95-XP, whoever needs it today, no one will even be able to run it on their Win10, only spend their time.
 

And this is where my interest lies :) For a starter, i know the Vogons community may find this stuff interesting, perhaps enough to work with it. They already have provided updated unofficial binaries for MBF DOS and Eternity DOS, to name something, but they also focus on older Windows versions.

 

Then there is also drfrag who maintains several ZDoom based ports that work towards legacy systems - Despite the Jports and ZDoom being two different codebases, this might be interesting for him aswell.

 

Lastly, im interested in these - From a historical perspective, that is. I focus on maintaining, documenting and archiving older code to save it from digital extinction. :)

[PVS]

I see, your interest in collecting source code, not port itself, maybe for recording/playback vanilla Heretic demos somewhere on your vintage Pentium-II,III. In any case, I’m absolutely not ready to give my beginner sources at this time.

ZDoom ports always had one big disadvantage for normal demo recordings - almost each individual build can playback only its own demos. I know and little tested drfrag ZDoom projects, such as ZDoom32 2.8.5b, ZDoom LE 2.8.3a and ZDoom Classic 2.1.4a, as far as I can see - this situation for demo recordings not changed in this versions.

I have collection of old Doomsday versions, older than 1.7.8, maybe some of them are hard to find today. If this is of interest to your files archives on Vogons - tell me, but I basically have only binaries, not source codes.
 

[Redneckerz]

6 minutes ago, PVS said:

I see, your interest in collecting source code, not port itself, maybe for recording/playback vanilla Heretic demos somewhere on your vintage Pentium-II,III. In any case, I’m absolutely not ready to give my beginner sources at this time.

That is understandable and not what im expecting anyways :)

 

6 minutes ago, PVS said:

ZDoom ports always had one big disadvantage for normal demo recordings - almost each individual build can playback only its own demos. I know and little tested drfrag ZDoom projects, such as ZDoom32 2.8.5b, ZDoom LE 2.8.3a and ZDoom Classic 2.1.4a, as far as I can see - this situation for demo recordings not changed in this versions.

I mentioned these to demonstrate that there is an audience for legacy maintenance builds - even so far as going back to the DOS days (with the unoffical MBF and Eternity-DOS works). 

6 minutes ago, PVS said:

I have collection of old Doomsday versions, older than 1.7.8, maybe some of them are hard to find today. If this is of interest to your files archives on Vogons - tell me, but I basically have only binaries, not source codes.

I do not maintain an vogons archive, but i would be interested in your JHeretic se works (and se2/4, not sure what the difference is?) :)

[PVS]

Sorry Redneckerz, but last weekend almost killed me, heh
se2,3,4 - so I numbered my versions, but I drop doing this for a long time, it’s not necessary for me alone, the last few years is always 'special edition 4'.

I'm not sure if anyone needs this, but I’ll leave this version here. jHeretic093(se4) for vanilla demo playback/recording - old look, oldschool, for old vintage PC and old Windows 95-XP. A lot of "old" but I warned you. If anyone will try to run it - I wrote a small txt-file in the Doc folder, read it first and sorry for my bad English.

Some screenshots from playback cooperative demo, only 20 fps, I know, but for my PIII 550MHz and TNT2 in 1280x720 - it's not bad at all :)

Spoiler

 

jHeretic093(se4).7z

Edited March 3, 2020 by PVS