What is your favorite fan made wad ever?

[Nick Perrin]

Jello said:

P.S. So when is the new MOUAC going to be done Nick? I'm really looking forward to it.

Real life has intervened! I haven't even browsed these forums for the past month or two. But I have some more time now, and in any case, no matter how long it takes, the new MoUAC is coming.

My favourite fan-made wads... hm... Action Doom was really well done, as was KDiZD... AV was plain fun... Batman Doom is the single best Dehacked-based TC ever... I tend to play other games more (for fun and often inspiration/game design tips and ideas) and use Doom as a platform for my own creations.

[Kaiser]

I recomend some of the more eariler wads. I really suggest Aliens TC, or the dante wad series by Dr.Sleep for example.

[tycp_08]

The Ghoul's Forest series

[Jello]

Nick Perrin said:

Real life has intervened! I haven't even browsed these forums for the past month or two. But I have some more time now, and in any case, no matter how long it takes, the new MoUAC is coming.

Good to hear that it's still chugging along. You should really do an over the top, pointless ad campaign like Action Doom for it. I'd love to have a shirt that said Mouac... it's fun to say. Moo-ack. Looks like it should be interesting, almost like half-life in the Doom engine. Hopefully you've retained the copious amounts of weaponry?

[YMB]

tycp_08 said:

The Ghoul's Forest series

Sure, they were fun the first time, but they got boring fast.

[Nick Perrin]

Jello said:

Hopefully you've retained the copious amounts of weaponry?

Not really. But in essence it's been replaced by copious amounts of gameplay gimmicks and mechanics, at least I hope so! Tons of weapons was never the hallmark of TRULY GOOD game, just a GOOD weapons mod. There is no need to have 3 pistols, they all do the same thing.

All the weapons in the new MoUAC are more distinct, there are less of them, and while often basic, they all have different effects on your enemies, and usually their secondary fires have yet ANOTHER different effect. This makes them wildly more fun to use than just having, say, 15 ways to come to the same zombie death (or whatever).

[John Smith]

Like Kaiser mentioned above, some of the early wads from Dr. Sleep and the like are actually quite good. After that theres the classic megawads: Alien Vendetta, Hell Revealed, Memento Mori, Scythe 2, etc. And after that there are just random wads that are awesome, like Deus Vult, Phobos, Suspended in Dusk (shame on you kristus for not including this), Phobos: Anomaly Reborn, and loads more.

[cwy]

yomoneyboat said:

Congestion: 1024. Hands down, no contest, bar none, THE best of all time.

As well designed as they are, the maps are just to small to satisfy. Some of the maps are so cramped up they looks like apartments in Manhattan. Why couldn't the author just combine several small maps into a bigger map?

[cwy]

I liked some of the early ones: Oracle, Doomsday of UAC, NJDoom.

[YMB]

cwy said:

As well designed as they are, the maps are just to small to satisfy. Some of the maps are so cramped up they looks like apartments in Manhattan. Why couldn't the author just combine several small maps into a bigger map?

...Because then it wouldn't be Congestion 1024.
Dumbass.

[cwy]

yomoneyboat said:

...Because then it wouldn't be Congestion 1024.
Dumbass.

Then don't call it Congestion 1024, you moronic ape-like watered-down descendent of an limbless, dickless amoeba who feeds on the deepest layers of prehistoric frogsh*t!

The concept is not implemented right. Small maps doesn't mean everything cramped up. The author cramped it up only to add gameplay. The maps need more open spaces to be enjoyable, and if that can't be done then the concept just DOESN'T WORK. The author should apply his map-designing talent (which is formidable) on bigger, more conventional maps instead . Why the gimmick of a self-imposed 1024x1024 restriction?? Gimmicks are for those who CAN'T design good maps (like you, perhaps) to hide their inadequacies. E.g. that ridiculous Cyberdreams megawad. The author of Congestion 1024 has the talent to design good maps and should not need any gimmicks.

[The Lag]

calling cyberdreams ridiculous and insinuating that there was no talent behind it negates your opinion.

[Vile]

cwy said:

Then don't call it Congestion 1024, you moronic ape-like watered-down descendent of an limbless, dickless amoeba who feeds on the deepest layers of prehistoric frogsh*t!

The concept is not implemented right. Small maps doesn't mean everything cramped up. The author cramped it up only to add gameplay. The maps need more open spaces to be enjoyable, and if that can't be done then the concept just DOESN'T WORK. The author should apply his map-designing talent (which is formidable) on bigger, more conventional maps instead . Why the gimmick of a self-imposed 1024x1024 restriction?? Gimmicks are for those who CAN'T design good maps (like you, perhaps) to hide their inadequacies. E.g. that ridiculous Cyberdreams megawad. The author of Congestion 1024 has the talent to design good maps and should not need any gimmicks.

Actually, the wad was designed by multiple authors as part of a community project and the 1024 grid restriction was meant to challenge the authors' ability to make good maps in that space.

[188DarkRevived]

1.) Batman DOOM (I will cherish it forever, that was just sweet!)
2.) The Darkening (both E1 & E2)
3.) Memento Mori (both 1 & 2)
4.) Requiem
5.) 2001: A DOOM Oddyssey (good layouts + corny music :) )

I would've also mention Alien Vendetta and Deus Vult if only they had less monsters. The level layouts were great, but they were too densely packed with monsters, and I don't like to run around with 'God mode' turned on all the time...
Back when I was 10 years old I used to love 'God mode' and 'no clipping', but in my twenties I prefer to win through fair play with quicksaves.

[40oz]

1.)STRAIN
2.)Hell to Pay
3.)Perdition's Gate

Old stuff wins. Anything that's port specific is rarely ever memorable. Except for maybe jokewads.

[cwy]

The Lag said:

calling cyberdreams ridiculous and insinuating that there was no talent behind it negates your opinion.

Cyberdreams is just not what Doom is all about, not what map design is about. It's GIMMICK. Doom is an *ACTION* game, not an adventure game. You use *action* to kill cyberdemons. You DON'T solve puzzles to kill them. Map design is about transporting the player to another world with awesome *ARCHITECTURE* and atmosphere -- not maps with only **ONE ROOM** !! Sure, there are always people who like these gimmick maps, but this is not what Doom really is and they know it.

[cwy]

Vile said:

Actually, the wad was designed by multiple authors as part of a community project and the 1024 grid restriction was meant to challenge the authors' ability to make good maps in that space.

I can see the effort that went into the maps, but they are just not enjoyable simply because there is not enough room and I can barely move my ass! Doom is about *ACTION*, and if you can barely move, there is no action. The smart thing to do is, like I said, combine some of these maps (preferrably the less cramped-up ones) into bigger maps. Put some wide open "buffer" areas in between the smaller areas to make it less claustrophobic, and you have a killer megawad! This is not Manhattan, it's MARS, where there's lots of open space. So who would design tiny little dinky structures like that on Mars?? This 1024x1024 restriction just doesn't make sense in so in many levels...

[myk]

cwy said:
The author cramped it up only to add gameplay.

Not really to "add gameplay", but the restraints put a limit on the types of gameplay possible, in many cases leading authors to lean towards cramped gameplay, especially if they combined detailing's clutter with the lack of spacing. If anything the "1024" choice limits gameplay.

maps need more open spaces to be enjoyable

I've noted this depends on the skill of the players. I was pretty surprised to see some players (that are better than me, I must admit) navigate the more or less cramped levels rather smoothly, and as a result they enjoyed the levels more than I did.

Gimmicks are for those who CAN'T design good maps [...] to hide their inadequacies.

Indeed, that's why in the hands of good mappers (like many of the ones who mapped for 1024, or the Cyberdreams author) the restrictions aren't gimmicks. Gimmicks are cheap devices with which an author tries to get away with fool himself, or people who are easily impressed, but not specific standards to put against one's mapping skills. Not to mention thart in some respects restrictions enhance quality in getting rid of "feature clutter" which tends to generate eclectic and unfinished feeling designs.

Why couldn't the author just combine several small maps into a bigger map?

That had been done already in the "exquisite corpse" wad. Various "restrictive" specifications have been attempted, and while I agree some have given better results (I liked 10 sectors more than 1024, for example, although some 1024 levels brought good results) they all encouraged the authors to get all they could out of their their abilities.

The author should apply his map-designing talent (which is formidable) on bigger, more conventional maps instead.

Authors do what they want because this is a free hobby, and to a large degree an intelligent author is moved by design principles and challenges, not the whims of potential users. I do generally prefer the work of player/designers, but even the more "design only" oriented ones can do a great job, especially if they have good testers to back them up.

Anyway, try not to go overboard with flames, so that us mods don't have to feel compelled to eventually clip your wings.

[YMB]

cwy said:

Then don't call it Congestion 1024, you moronic ape-like watered-down descendent of an limbless, dickless amoeba who feeds on the deepest layers of prehistoric frogshit!

Stupidest Post Award 2007

[cwy]

yomoneyboat said:

===============
Then don't call it Congestion 1024, you moronic ape-like watered-down descendent of an limbless, dickless amoeba who feeds on the deepest layers of prehistoric frogshit!
===============
Stupidest Post Award 2007

No, I was just visualizing a *new doom monster* in a mod I'm designing -- a monster in *your likeness*. It'll be the best mod of the century I guarantee.

[YMB]

cwy said:

No, I was just visualizing a *new doom monster* in a mod I'm designing -- a monster in *your likeness*. It'll be the best mod of the century I guarantee.

Second Stupidest Post Award 2007
Jesus Christ, why do the morons always get drawn in to me? Opposites attract, I suppose.

[myk]

cwy said:
This is not Manhattan, it's MARS, where there's lots of open space. So who would design tiny little dinky structures like that on Mars?? This 1024x1024 restriction just doesn't make sense in so in many levels...

It's not Manhattan, it's not Mars, nor Alice's Wonderland, it's a user made level for a game.

But that makes me wonder, if someone made a "Hell on Earth" level in Manhattan or a similar locale a cramped design would be okay, while it wouldn't in some random undefined locale (mountainside, tech base, lost temple, or whatever)?

Not to mention that Mars or Phobos bases do not really exist and there's no way to really know if they should be spacious or cramped.

Not that it matters for a fictitious design geared mainly toward fun, creativity, and playability, as opposed to realistic emulation, of course.

yomoneyboat said:
Opposites attract, I suppose.

If only, but unfortunately you've both contributed to monging up the thread.

[cwy]

yomoneyboat said:

Second Stupidest Post Award 2007
Jesus Christ, why do the morons always get drawn in to me? Opposites attract, I suppose.

You made next to zero constructive posts except on this topic while I've made several. Opposites attract indeed... You are just an insecure little man who got pissed when I disagreed with you about Congestion 1024, which is the "best wad of all time" only to one-cell organism like you.

[Grazza]

Final warning to both cwy and yomoneyboat: one more moronic post and you're losered, possibly for a long time.

[Kappes Buur]

I don't have any favorite pwad perse, however, there are some pwads which I like to replay from time to time:

CABAL series by Cranium (Sverre Andre Kvernmo), of which I liked WATCHTWR.WAD the most.

sieben11.wad

HERIAN, HERIAN2

ETERNAL

some of the KAISER series

[kristus]

John Smith said:

(shame on you kristus for not including this)

While most of them are really nice wads, they didn't really grab me like the ones I listed did. BTW, I worked on Aliens Vendetta and it's defenitely one of the fan made megawads where I've come the farthest in before I've eventually stopped, but as usual with such wads, only way I ever get to play them from start to finish is in a coop match with my closest friends. I just don't have the patience to play 32 random doom maps in succession- There's no carrot.

[The Lag]

"Cyberdreams is just not what Doom is all about"

true.
cyberdreams is NOT doom.
to me the doom source has been released for years, and this source has allowed independent programmers/designers to make what they wish out of it.
i have always, since the early days in the 90's, been extremely interested in just what is possible using this engine.
when the source was released and expanded upon by talented third-parties, it meant that much more was possible.
i love doom as it is, but i also love that which is possible to create within its, still, narrow limits.
i understand that we all have different opinions, but mine has always been: doom kicks ass...let's see what we can do to make it better, and let's try to create entirely new games out of it.
similar with 1024...sometimes the best creations come out of severe limitations.
...and, as a creative individual, i would much rather struggle within the confines of limits, than have every opportunity handed to me.
it just makes for better work.

[BoldEnglishman]

The Lag said:

i understand that we all have different opinions, but mine has always been: doom kicks ass...let's see what we can do to make it better, and let's try to create entirely new games out of it.
similar with 1024...sometimes the best creations come out of severe limitations....and, as a creative individual, i would much rather struggle within the confines of limits, than have every opportunity handed to me. It just makes for better work.

That's basically what I was going to say. The argument I use in playing Doom compared to games today is just that. I play Doom BECAUSE of what authors come up with in the confines of the Doom engine (and related source ports). It's interesting to see what level authors create when they impose restrictions on themselves.

cwy, you don't exactly have to play Congestion1024x1024 if you disagree with the WADs goals. There are plenty of maps that ARE bigger, DO have much more open space around, and are FULL of action. Particularly slaughter-fests. Also, yomoneyboat isen't the only person who reckons Congestion1024x1024 is a good map set, as that WAD it was one of the top 10 of its year of release (which I have forgotten currently) - according to Doomworld's 10 Years of Doom.

yomoneyboat, I think, as you said, "the morons always get drawn to me", is partly because you respond to their posts, which can provoke them into posting @ you.

Anyway MY opinion, and MY final decision about all this is that I do prefer levels with action, bigger levels, and more open space. I have played Cyberdreams, and, although I wouldn't play it again since discovering what it's about, that's just my personal taste. I can see the creativity the authors have put into that WAD, it's just not what I enjoy playing. I haven't even played Congestion1024x1024, but I can guess that creativity is used in the same way. BUT I don't whine about them or say that their crap, I just don't play them.

[cwy]

The Lag said:

"Cyberdreams is just not what Doom is all about"

true.
cyberdreams is NOT doom.
to me the doom source has been released for years, and this source has allowed independent programmers/designers to make what they wish out of it.
i have always, since the early days in the 90's, been extremely interested in just what is possible using this engine.
when the source was released and expanded upon by talented third-parties, it meant that much more was possible.
i love doom as it is, but i also love that which is possible to create within its, still, narrow limits.
i understand that we all have different opinions, but mine has always been: doom kicks ass...let's see what we can do to make it better, and let's try to create entirely new games out of it.
similar with 1024...sometimes the best creations come out of severe limitations.
...and, as a creative individual, i would much rather struggle within the confines of limits, than have every opportunity handed to me.
it just makes for better work.

If it's not Doom, then why make it with Doom? Why force it into the Doom universe. It is so far apart from typical Doom gameplay it just doesn't belong. I felt like I was playing an Atari 2600 arcade game. You have maps where you run around like crazy in sparsely decorated rooms doing inane stuff like wait for the cyberdemon to step on a particular spot. Have Doom players become so jaded they have to indulge themselves in this nonsense?

[Cupboard]

btw it's just a game.