Community Chest Series Demos [-complevel 9]

[vdgg]

tatsurd-cacocaco said:
Community Chest 1 - MAP 1 - UV-Max in 4:59

...While in 99% of the mapsets it is the first map which attracts huge (often the biggest) speedrunning attention, sometimes with demos of all of the categories. Good job, Tatsurd, as I admit having hated this map. It the view of this demo it suddenly becomes... quite good in my eyes.

[tatsurd-cacocaco]

vdgg said:

...While in 99% of the mapsets it is the first map which attracts huge (often the biggest) speedrunning attention, sometimes with demos of all of the categories. Good job, Tatsurd, as I admit having hated this map. It the view of this demo it suddenly becomes... quite good in my eyes.

Thanks! cc01 is not so bad as not Max but Tyson, but I also don't like the map.


Community Chest 1 - MAP 18 - UV-Max in 9:03

cc18-903.zip

[Graim]

vdgg said:

... Good job, Tatsurd, as I admit having hated this map. It the view of this demo it suddenly becomes... quite good in my eyes.

I'd say the same, the map is probably unusually big and complicated for the first map of a wad but i don't think it's a bad map at all ;)
Here is an UV-Speed on it in 1:56

cc01-156.zip

[tatsurd-cacocaco]

Graim, nice run!


Community Chest 1 - MAP 22 - UV-Max in 5:33

cc22-533.zip

[Graim]

thx, i'd like to record some more demos, but i'm not sure what is the correct complevel for this wad - should it really be number 2 ? I first tried recording in chocolate doom but it crashes when it 'sees' one of those bridges. doom2.exe doesn't crash but also comports funny. I used complevel 9 but now i guess it's not the one either.

Can someone who is better informed make this clear for me?

[dew]

Advanced engine needed : Boom/PrBoom or ZDoom
i'd say that means complevel 9 in prboom+ speak

[Grazza]

Thread title edited to clarify.

Quite a few of the individual maps, especially in CC1, are in fact limit-removing or even vanilla compatible, but this isn't a uniform thing, so Boom is the way to go. IIRC, for CC1, which was meant to be limit-removing without Boom specials, the project leader sometimes used the term "Boom compatible" to mean "limit removing", which obviously caused confusion. He also deleted all the CC1 threads from the Community Chest forum, so it is hard to know exactly what testing was done and what if any known issues with vanilla compatibility there were.

Anyway, the basic point is that Boom behaviour was what the maps were most likely to have been tested with. Even if a map doesn't have Boom specials, it can still rely on Boom behaviour and thus break if vanilla behaviour is used.

[tatsurd-cacocaco]

myk wrote in this thread:
The three Doom compatibility levels (2, 3, and 4) may also be suitable with many limit removing level sets, but note that such demos will likely not play back in vanilla executables (Doom, Doom95 or Chocolate Doom) by exceeding visplane overflow limits and such, and may also suffer from the less reliable intercepts overflows. The demos will often work with Doom-plus, which lifts some of the limits by a good margin.

I knew on Doom wiki that CChest2 and 3 were made for Boom compatibility ports but CChest1 was made for limit removing ports. Also, Eugene, Anima, and Gusta used vanilla Doom compatibility.

Therefore, I used "2".

[Grazza]

You may well be OK in many or even most cases with -complevel 2 in CChest.wad. However, at least some of the maps do not work as intended that way (map25 is one that I know about for sure, due to discussions with the map's author when I recorded on it many years ago - the intended route doesn't work at all, but you can exit by using a trick). So you could spend a lot of time working on a demo only to find that you were playing with unintended behaviour.

Many maps that are stated as being "limit-removing" do actually require port features (beyond mere removal of limits) due to a lack of testing without them. Bear in mind that back in 2003, when the first Community Chest was made, there weren't even many good options for testing limit-removing wads. Prboom+ and Doom2+ didn't exist, and the regular Prboom had quite a few glitches and bugs, and wouldn't let you use saves when in the "emulate vanilla" mode (an irritation when testing, even if you don't use saves generally). Eternity was an option, but it didn't have a simple "behave as much like vanilla as possible" setting. So the upshot was that most testing was done using at least some Boom features, if not in Zdoom or some other advanced port.

Of course, you can also take the view that the wad is stated as being limit-removing, so if you find some shortcut in that mode that exploits a map error which exists due to poor testing, then that's fine and dandy. Personally, I find this fully legitimate, in fact. But be aware that you may be stepping outside the gameplay that was intended, and it may even be impossible to exit, or get max kills, etc.

[myk]

Yeah, CChest1 showed (among other WADs) how and why distinguishing vanilla (limit removing) and Boom is important for demo recording. Back then, some people were arguing that Boom compatibility was better than limit removing or vanilla for a community project because it allowed designers to submit either Doom or Boom levels. This tempted people who prefer to record with vanilla behavior to submit vanilla demos of some levels, producing a mixed bunch of demos. Just look at the compatibility levels used for CChest1 demos. Vile Flesh had the same problem, as well as the initial release of Scythe 2. Almost the whole WAD is vanilla except for a minority of levels. From my standpoint, all those WADs are (or were) partially broken, because I'd really use vanilla all the way if I could.

Nowadays, with better testing engines, people tend to make either good use of Boom features regularly, or really stick to vanilla (be that limit removing or not).

It would be cool to have a little app that detects issues on vanilla by looking for Boom lines or Boom-dependent structures (such as stars or rising floors) that would break in Doom+ or vanilla compatibility.

[tatsurd-cacocaco]

OK! I agree about complevel suggestion.

By the way, I spent 5 or 6 hours for map 25 on UV-Max. However, I can't finish this level. Although killing all enemies is probably possible, there aren't enough ammo. And, it is difficult to keep health. For such reasons, I wanted to play this map slowly and safely but most of this map is damaging floors. I needed to hurry up, and I wasted some ammo or health.

I attached a fail demo. I used fists because I didn't get a chainsaw. The fight against the Cyber demon is so terrible. I wasted some BFG shots. These points should be improved, but the main problem can't at all be solved only by them.
Anyone, do you have any good idea?

cc25died.zip

[Grazza]

tatsurd-cacocaco said:

Anyone, do you have any good idea?

There's a berserk in the exit room. So you could start off doing it like a UV Speed, pick up the berserk and then kill the remaining monsters. Not saying that would be easy, but it could save a good deal of ammo.

Also there is a chainsaw - you even see it in your demo.

[Never_Again]

[gggmork]

Grazza said:

There's a berserk in the exit room.

You can also run/bump/steal the blue key from a slight angle to get it early.

[vdgg]

gggmork said:
You can also run/bump/steal the blue key from a slight angle to get it early.

I think this is what Grazza meant by saying "UV Speed route". This happens to be, however, tricky and not too rewarding(!) I usually get killed by a rev rocket a 0.1 second right after obtaining the key this way. I initially thought the berserk would be more powerful than the chainsaw, but in this very map they are about equal: MAYBE against the hell knights in the marble area you can use berserk.
I try another strategy (I wish I am successful, but I'll be happy to see anyone beating this damn map): "run the level twice". Skip as much as possible, save ammo, e.g. 2 barons, maybe even cyberdemon when low on cells, and then, after getting the blue key the intended way and after clearing the starting area, clear the remaining ones.

EDIT: Oh, cannot skip the cyber nor any monster in the marble area, as it is accessible only once. The biggest pain are those 2 cacodemons for which you have to waste 4-5 rockets each.

[tatsurd-cacocaco]

Everyone, thank you for some suggestions.
As a result, I only used a chainsaw in one part.


Community Chest 1 - MAP 25 - UV-Max in 10:21

cc251021.zip

[vdgg]

This is great!

Getting past the cyberdemon with 186% health is quite an achievement in itself. You've saved a lot of ammo up to that point, too, so even no berserk was necessary.

I used a very similar approach (no key grab, potential berserk at the end). If I ever finished it, my time would be 14-16 minutes :-D Attach a failed demo (for Tatsurd mainly), one of 2 only tries when I got past the cyberdemon. This time I had 5% health, which was... errr... very insufficient.

cc25vdgg.zip

[dew]

wow, impressive demo, tatsurd!

[tatsurd-cacocaco]

Community Chest 1 - MAP 26 - UV-Max in 14:22

cc261422.zip

[Graim]

Community Chest 1
MAP18 UV-Speed in 2:17

cc18-217.zip

[Revved]

Community Chest 2
UV Fast
Map 9 in 1:44

c209f144.zip

[Graim]

well, i wanted to record runs on some of the bigger maps (from cc1) that are 'possible' on UV-Speed like map12 or map22 but its all too difficult for me anyway (and time consuming) so here are at least some easier ones:

Community Chest 1 again
MAP03 in 0:35
MAP04 in 0:37
MAP17 in 0:30
all uv-speed

cc03-04-17.zip

[dew]

Graim said:

MAP03 in 0:35

oh wow... you lucky bastard

[tatsurd-cacocaco]

I want only to fill UV-Max table of CChest 1, but their maps prevent me doing it... Another terrible map is map 27. There aren't enough ammo, but it is fortunate that I can play this map slowly. I'll still spend a few hours to try this. I like this map's design. However, I might start to hate this megawad.

cc27died.zip

[tatsurd-cacocaco]

I really played this map slowly and safely, and also I managed to overcome it. However, You might feel that this demo is so boring.


Community Chest 1 - MAP 27 - UV-Max in 27:43

cc272743.zip

[Graim]

MAP22 after all: uv-speed in 2:39

cc22-239.zip

[tatsurd-cacocaco]

Community Chest 1 - MAP 29 - UV-Nomo in 16:31


I'll try this map of UV-Max, I don't know if it is possible for me or not though. I just post this nomo demo. I played this map with no monsters without using wad editors, and I spent an hour and half only to finish the map. As a result,I depended on a wad editor for getting all secrets.

cc29nomo.zip

[vdgg]

I checked Doom DSDA Update and the inevitable has happened: blob1024 beats my cchest2 MAP11 record. That would be fine, but by a minute and a half?!. Well, congrats!

A much more modest improvement on MAP07 (To Hell and Back by The Flange Peddler): UV Max in 9:27

c207-927.zip

[dew]

yeah, blob's crusade is entertaining. i wonder how he will fare when he reaches levels recorded by vile. :)

[vdgg]

dew said:
yeah, blob's crusade is entertaining. i wonder how he will fare when he reaches levels recorded by vile. :)

He should be able to beat at least one of Vile's times. Someone commented on youtube that MAP28 should be the easiest to beat. I don't think so, from what I remember MAP23 had some ammo management issues and the demo is not perfect. Still, it is a feat. I haven't beaten a single Vile Max demo in my life :-P

CC3 - MAP12 (Black Rain by RottKing) - UV Max in 51:38

I didn't watch it. This demo is probably useless, RottKing posted a 46:xx demo on page 3, don't know which port, but the demo is gone.

Some things to consider:
1) Megasphere secret. This one requires a nearly-impossible jump and hold sequence. I think I could try Darken2 MAP12 now, as the crate jumps there are trivial comparing to this. In this demo I spent more than 2 minutes on this jump. This is pretty good for me, really.
2) After this "success" my play is awful.
3) 761/766 kills. This is maximum according to what I checked with DB2. 4 imps and 1 cacodemon have a W1 teleport linedef in front of them, but some monsters already used that teleporter line, so they cannot be killed.

c3125138.zip