Eternal Doom Returns from Oblivion

[entryway]

The day before yesterday I finished map12 in 2 hour 30 minutes. Yesterday I finished map13 in 3 hours 40 minutes (without dieing!). Some time ago I finished CoD4 more quickly than the one level from eternal4, heh, and I am sleepy today. How many time I'll spend on map 27? Six hours?

From first six levels which I finished, map13 was the most impressive. It was Real Eternal Doom.

[ReX]

For those of you that have played through the 7-map demo and are considering playing some or all of it over, let me point out some things that may not be very obvious. [It's in the text file, but who the heck wants to read through a thesis when he/she can get right down to blasting them dancing pixels, eh?]:

1. Maps08-10 are in a hub that is set up so that you can start on any of the 3 maps once you get to the "crossroads" near the start of the game. [This part is probably patently obvious.]
2. You can begin in any map and travel to any other map from that map. [Again, pretty obvious.]
3. The first time you play the game if you begin on, say, Map10 you'll experience a certain level of gameplay (with different enemies/power-ups, and typically easier because you don't have all the weapons and have not accumulated ammo). [This is not obvious unless you look through the scripts.]
4. The next time you play the game if you begin on, say, Map09 and then return to Map10, you will find the gameplay in Map10 more difficult (than as in 3, above) and with different enemies and powerups.[Again, not obvious.]

Bottom line: If you liked the maps enough to play them again, use a different map progression to get a somewhat different gameplay experience than you did the first time you played them.

[Naan]

So basically there's 6 ways to complete the whole hub ?

8-9-10
8-10-9
9-10-8
9-8-10
10-9-8
10-8-9

[ReX]

Naan said:

So basically there's 6 ways to complete the whole hub ?

Pretty much. Plus among these 6 ways, there are 3 ways by which your gameplay experience will vary noticeably because of the different enemies, ammo, and power-ups - each map plays differently depending on whether you start on it first or enter it from another map. [Note that the map designs don't change - although with the use of rising and lowering sectors, this too could be done. It would just involve quite a bit more work.]

[Enjay]

Lüt said:

Still, I think it would have been better without monsters (or perhaps a mere few for sudden unexpected surprises) and instead been turned into an adventure/mystery kind of exploration like Myst. It certainly had the atmosphere quotient.

I'm not sure how well that would have fitted into this project, but yes, the map certainly has that kind of quality and I think that approach would suit it.

[Lüt]

Enjay said:

I'm not sure how well that would have fitted into this project, but yes, the map certainly has that kind of quality and I think that approach would suit it.

Yeah, it wouldn't have fit the project at all, it would have had to be a solo release, but I was just saying that's probably what I would have done had I created a map like that myself.

Who knows, I may yet.

[gemini09]

Map27 was just stunning. It's art in Doom. It was so well constucted, I feel it's out of place, both with the other maps, but also with the Doom theme, including modern shotguns, enemy troopers with pistols, and things of that nature.

It's a proper evolution from the original Eternal Doom, and again, with incredible design and dedication.

Now I just took a break from it after getting the blue key and not remembering any blue doors.. where do I go? And what's up with the totally inappropiate choice of music?

[ReX]

gemini09 said:

Now I just took a break from it after getting the blue key and not remembering any blue doors.. where do I go?

There are no blue doors. But you'll find out what you need the key for soon enough (actually it's more at the end).

[Ichor]

Yeah, all three keys will go in the same place. Just be careful when you get the red key. I found out about that the hard way.

[Arch-Valentine]

Well so far I have played the first hub and am mid way through Castle of the Eagle (I already found the 2 runes in the other levels) I have to say you guys did a great job with the rocket zombie placement. Ever since Obituary I haven't found a single Megawad/TC that has utilized them so efficiently. I do really think that there should be more monsters as I am finding myself with nothing but 100 rockets every step of the levels. Maybe tone down the ammo a bit more in UV or add more difficult monsters. There does seem to be alot of barren areas that while look spectacular for Doom lack in the gameplay department. Some areas feel very empty and have alot of promise for some epic battles.

[TimeOfDeath]

I'm really liking the wad so far. The beauty of the maps is overwhelming. One thing though: a few times in map12 I got stuck in the floor and couldn't move at all (I could turn, look up and down, but couldn't move, as if my body instantly fell halfway into the floor like it was quicksand). This normally happens when I bump the blue skull with a rocket jump against the outside of the fence. Sometimes when I land after the rjump I get stuck in the floor. But it's also happened at the grey face switch near the blue skull doors (the one that lowers the two walls with revenants behind them, en route to the yellow key card). I'll be at the switch and then be stuck in the floor all of a sudden. Any idea why?

[Enjay]

Sounds like the kind of problems I got with some maps I downloaded from idgames a few years ago. The problem I had was due to a node build problem, which Randy Heit explained to me - but I forget the details now. The symptoms sound very similar. Try forcing Zdoom to rebuild the nodes for you by typing

gennodes 1

at the console and see if it makes any difference.

[John Smith]

Played it, espis map was the only one worth bothering with, and it was epic largely because it oozes atmosphere by the bucketload. As people have said, its like playing Myst.

The rest of the wad (and in fairness, part of espis map too) suffers from rampant Eternal syndrome; huge maps, switch hunts, wall humping for secret/hidden shit, etc. Add to that some random ZDoom gayness (were those stealth monsters and if so what the fuck were you thinking?) and you get Daedelus done Eternal style for 2008. Congratulations if thats what you were going for.

[ReX]

John Smith said:

The rest of the wad (and in fairness, part of espis map too) suffers from rampant Eternal syndrome; huge maps, switch hunts, wall humping for secret/hidden shit, etc. Add to that some random ZDoom gayness (were those stealth monsters and if so what the fuck were you thinking?) and you get Daedelus done Eternal style for 2008. Congratulations if thats what you were going for.

Congratulations to you too, for figuring out that it's a TeamTNT mapset done in the Eternal style for ZDooM. What clued you to it? The fact that it's named Eternal DOOM IV: Return from Oblivion? Or the fact that the text file says "medieval-themed, and generally very large compared to typical DooM maps..." and "Advanced engine needed : ZDooM v2.1.7 or later"?

If you didn't like "rampant Eternal syndrome" with "huge maps", etc. when you played Eternal DooM III, why the fuck did you bother with Eternal DooM IV? The only explanation I can think of is that you are a masochist that likes to get your tiny dick real sore when you rub it frantically against the wall.

If you want to express your opinion to effect positive change, do so in a manner that is not offensive. Otherwise, expect the same back.

[John Smith]

rofl troll.

Like I said, if what TeamTNT set out to do was Daedelus done Eternal style for '08, congratulations, you've done it. Seriously, if thats what the wad is intended to be like you've not only done it, you've excelled at it, and I'm really glad for you. No sarcasm, I'm serious. Good job team.

However, I'm sure you'll find that many people agree with me that Eternal III is plenty of it already, and they'd rather have something else. Certainly there are things you could do to make the Eternal style better, while still being the Eternal style, by addressing some of its common criticisms, by having better indicators of where to go next in this huge map, triggers that are not so hidden you need to have knowledge of the map before you play it, etc, but this release is just more of the same old Eternal at heart. That and you could have avoided the use-cool-zdoom-features-because-they're-available mentality that Daedalus suffered from (and btw Daedalus is not mentioned in the title, as long as your going on about the title giving you a hint about the wad, I'd consider changing the name to Eternal IV: Return to Daedalus so as to be completely informative to any potential player), but again, you just did it again with a more recent version of ZDoom.

And really if all that is what TeamTNT meant to do, make Eternal IV by just doing more of the same old eternal style, and with more ZDoom features (and "features"), you've done it. If TeamTNT didn't intend to do that, and by the tone of your post I think that you in fact did not (or possibly you [singular] have tourettes, in which case I am very sorry), then I'd fix all of those general problems I've mentioned and take a good, serious look at the gameplay, something I'm fairly sure you, the team, haven't done yet, and then it would end up being pretty good.

[ReX]

John Smith said:

Many people agree .... that Eternal III is plenty of Daedelus done Eternal style for '08 already, and they'd rather have something else.

As a matter of fact, the team did not set out to make EDIV in the mold of Daedelus at all. On the contrary, the objective all along was to do it in the Eternal III style (i.e., maps on a massive, even epic, scale) but for ZDooM. While Daedelus was strongly driven by an array of objectives, each of the EDIV maps has rather simple missions - primarily to acquire the various keys. This is no different than the objectives in any typical DooM map. Even Maps08-10 had really only a small handful of objectives - pick up all the weapons in the first map, and find the 3 rune switches, all in a rather straight-forward layout. Very little in the way of puzzles, which was the hallmark of Daedelus.

Certainly there are things you could do to make the Eternal style better, while still being the Eternal style, by addressing some of its common criticisms by having better indicators of where to go next in this huge map, triggers that are not so hidden you need to have knowledge of the map before you play it, etc, but this is just more of the same old Eternal at heart.

So far there have been just the solitary comments about getting lost in the truly large maps (Maps11-13). For the most part, it appears that the size and complexity of the maps have not adversely impacted the ability of players to successfully navigate through. However, your point is taken, and the team will undoubtedly endeavor to reduce confusion in future maps.

That and you could have avoided the use-cool-zdoom-features-because-they're-available mentality that Daedalus suffered from, but again, you just did it again with a more recent version of ZDoom.

Actually, I believe you are the first person to suggest that EDIV used ZDooM features for the sake of using them. (And you may very well be the first person to suggest that the team simply attempted to fuse Eternal DooM and Daedelus.) For the most part the features we used were intended to be seamless with everything else, and to integrate the various elements of gameplay. I hope you're not suggesting that "feature-rich" is synonymous with "feature-bloat". Please provide examples of where you thought the use of ZDooM features was unnecessary (while keeping in mind that there may have been a few instances of this, but this does not equate to the "mentality that Daedalus suffered from"). We will use your comments to consider how to prevent future maps from unnecessarily using ZDooM features.

(and btw Daedalus is not mentioned in the title, as long as your going on about the title giving you a hint about the wad, I'd consider changing the name to Eternal IV: Return to Daedalus so as to be completely informative to any potential player)

As I explained before, EDIV was not intended to be Daedelus.

And really if all that is what TeamTNT meant to do, make Eternal IV by just doing more of the same old eternal style, and with more ZDoom features (and "features"), you've done it. If TeamTNT didn't intend to do that, and by the tone of your post I think you didn't (or possibly you have tourettes, in which case I am very sorry), then I'd fix all of those general problems I've mentioned and take a good, serious look at the gameplay, something I'm fairly sure you haven't done yet, and then it would end up being pretty good.

Yes, exactly, "that is what TeamTNT meant to do, make Eternal IV by just doing more of the same old eternal style, and with more ZDoom features". No kidding. That was exactly the premise with which we began. Not everyone like huge maps, and not everyone likes ZDooM. The text file clearly warns that EDIV is both.

We did not expect that EDIV would be all things to all people. And, needless to say, people are free (and welcome) to express themselves about the game. However, if they wish to engage in a constructive dialog they will not swagger about the place trying to impress the public with their disdain and general disrespectfulness.

[Afterglow]

You might want to fix the MAP13 bug where you can hit the above secret switch more than once after it has lowered...

http://i26.tinypic.com/r7ksig.jpg

[entryway]

http://prboom-plus.sourceforge.net/map12-bug.zip
zdoom 2.1.7

[ReX]

Afterglow said:

You might want to fix the MAP13 bug where you can hit the above secret switch more than once after it has lowered...

Duly noted, thanks. I'm surpised none of the play-testing picked that one up.

Entryway said:

http://prboom-plus.sourceforge.net/map12-bug.zip
zdoom 2.1.7...

Yes, that is indeed a serious bug. Again, this never came up before during our play-testing, but I'll be sure to let Chris know that this needs to be fixed. Thanks.

[John Smith]

K well now that we've figured out Rex and I are on the same page about the fact that Eternal IV is meant to be Eternal III with ZDoom, I'm going pick a bit at the "with ZDoom" part of his post, because there's nothing left to be said in the rest of it thats meaningful.

Actually, I believe you are the first person to suggest that EDIV used ZDooM features for the sake of using them. (And you may very well be the first person to suggest that the team simply attempted to fuse Eternal DooM and Daedelus.)

Stealth monsters and 95% of Hudmessages are always used because they're available instead of from real need. I don't know how many people you'll find to agree with such an absolute statement as "always" but I know plenty of people that think they're both pretty bad features. Stealth monsters just serve to make the game frustrating or annoying depending on the difficulty of the monster (stealth archviles for instance, especially when around other monsters, turn the game into a tedious cat and mouse game). Hudmessages are far too often (all around, not just in EtIV) used to create a tiny underdeveloped in-game narrative that could easily be done without. Or they make obvious statements about occurrences in the game. I think I saw a few particle fountains too, but I've slept twice since I played Eternal IV and I could be wrong. Particle fountains are a used-because-it's-available feature every time they're used. And they look like shit every time they're used. Not a coincidence I assure you. I'd take a look at those sorts of things and figure out what adds to the style, substance, and depth of the wad and what just adds to the wad.

For the most part the features we used were intended to be seamless with everything else, and to integrate the various elements of gameplay. I hope you're not suggesting that "feature-rich" is synonymous with "feature-bloat".

Right and in large part it was done well. The use of the hub system was great, slopes looked better than they do in most wads, the scripting overall wasn't glaringly bad or overdone, etc. As for the feature rich vs. feature bloat thing, I admit to being a so-called "purist" in that I'm more inclined to wads of the vanilla or limit removing persuasion as opposed to those of the ZDoom or Skulltag persuasion, and that what I consider to be bloat many consider to be features. I'm not even bothering to talk about those differences in this post, only the things that I see as clear cut problems.

Please provide examples of where you thought the use of ZDooM features was unnecessary (while keeping in mind that there may have been a few instances of this, but this does not equate to the "mentality that Daedalus suffered from"). We will use your comments to consider how to prevent future maps from unnecessarily using ZDooM features.

Read the above, and also consider the following: the gameplay is lacking. In some places its good, in some places its tacked on, and I'm not going to go on a room by room tour with you in this thread to tell you where it needs work. At the risk of being flamed or stereotyped I'm going to suggest taking a look at Alien Vendetta, Vrack2b, Wonderful Doom, and ZDoom Community Map Project (for a few examples) to see how proper gameplay should be. Doesn't mean that EtIV has to be as hard as some of the aforementioned wads, but it needs to be as well planned as all of the above to shine in the area of gameplay.

EDIT: A few more things as I play again. Freezing the player during hudmessages makes the hudmesssages even more annoying, and killer force fields are yet another shitty zdoom feature that is used because it's there more than from actual need. Use a blocking line or something.

[ReX]

John Smith said:

Stealth monsters and 95% of Hudmessages are always used because they're available instead of from real need.... Stealth monsters just serve to make the game frustrating or annoying depending on the difficulty of the monster. Hudmessages are far too often (all around, not just in EtIV) they're used to create a tiny underdeveloped in-game narrative that could easily be done without. Or they make obvious statements about occurrences in the game. I think I saw a few particle fountains too.... Particle fountains are a used-because-it's-available feature every time they're used. And they look like shit every time they're used. Not a coincidence I assure you.

Stealth monsters: On a personal level I agree with you, and that's why there are no stealth monsters in Maps08-10. However, that is ultimately the mapper's prerogative. Someone else mentioned stealth monsters, but as far as I can remember the only one used is the stealth arch-vile at the beginning of Map27. (Of course, the last time I play-tested each of the maps was in November 2007, so I could have forgotten this.) There may be a few others, but I do not recall them being widely used or to the point of being annoying. Please point out additional examples if you recall them. The team will definitely have discussions on the use/misuse of stealth monsters.

HUD messages: Maps11-13 have virtually none, and Map27 uses them sparingly. I assume, then, that you are referring to Maps08-10. If you accept that Maps08-10 are "mission-driven", then perhaps you'll see that many of the messages are intended to further the so-called "immersion" quotient of the maps. I just reviewed all my scripts for the 3-map hub, and with the exception of the mission briefing in Map08 (which is completely optional) there are hardly any redundant HUD messages. Perhaps the message in Map10 about bars opening nearby (while the camera shows the bars opening) could be omitted. But almost all other messages serve to properly orient the player (e.g., "you are now entering Map so-and-so", or "you need to find one more weapon before you can exit", or "you have not found the rune key, do you still wish to exit?"), and most players would find them useful.

Particle fountains: I don't remember them being used indiscriminately. If the mapper in question used them, it's likely that he liked the look of it. You and the relevant mapper are going to have to disagree on this one.

Right and in large part it [ZDooM features] was done well. The use of the hub system was great, slopes looked better than they do in most wads, the scripting overall wasn't glaringly bad or overdone, etc. As for the feature rich vs. feature bloat thing, I admit to being a so-called "purist" in that I'd more inclined to wads of the vanilla or limit removing persuasion as opposed to those of the ZDoom or Skulltag persuasion, and that what I consider to be bloat many consider to be features. I'm not even bothering talking about those differences in this post, only the things that I see as clear cut problems.

I'm glad you stated your preference for vanilla or limit-removing wads. As I said before, EDIV is not meant to be all things to all people, and we recognize that many people will not come away impressed with the game. I am not trying to convince you (or anyone else) that this is a great game that you have no choice but to enjoy. However, creating a game that people would enjoy was one of our foremost objectives; it's a shame that you are among those that didn't.

Read the above, and also consider the following: the gameplay is lacking. In some places its good, in some places its tacked on, and I'm not going to go on a room by room tour with you in this thread to tell you where it needs work. At the risk of being flamed or stereotyped I'm going to suggest taking a look at Alien Vendetta, Vrack2b, Wonderful Doom, and ZDoom Community Map Project to see how proper gameplay should be. Doesn't have to be as hard as some of the above, but it needs to be as well planned as all of the above to shine in the area of gameplay.

We have received comments from others on the gameplay, and where it was lacking. The team is considering all these comments, and we shall take your suggestions under advisement also.

Many thanks for taking the time to explain what you think we can do to improve the game. That's all we expect. (However, if someone were to tell us they liked the game, and provided reasons for it, we would not be averse to that either.) And contrary to what you may be thinking, I don't object to criticism. I just have a problem when it is delivered in an apparently rude manner, particularly under the cover of the anonymity that the Internet affords.

[EDIT: The following comments are based on the EDIT of your post.]

EDIT: A few more things as I play again. Freezing the player during for hudmessages makes the hudmesssages even more annoying, and killer force fields are yet another shitty zdoom feature that is used because it's there more than need. Use a blocking line or something.

Yes, I agree that the player freezing is annoying. However, the reason I set it up that way is other scripts don't get activated until the HUD message script is completed. Therefore, if the player runs to the teleporter at the start of the map, the teleport will not work until the HUD message script has been completed. My plan for a work-around is to allow the player to skip the intro area completely, teleport directly to the "crossroads", and be ready to enter any one of the 3 maps.

I'm not sure if you're referring to the laser barrier in the crossroads, or the two force-fields blocking the secret areas in Map08. The force-fields are not "killer", and they only impart minor damage. This leaves the laser barrier. Which laser barrier have you known that is only blocking? Players of ZDooM maps know by now that laser barriers are deadly. You and I are going to have to disagree on this one, particularly as there is just one laser barrier in the entire hub.

[Graf Zahl]

John Smith said:

Particle fountains are a used-because-it's-available feature every time they're used. And they look like shit every time they're used. Not a coincidence I assure you. I'd take a look at those sorts of things and figure out what adds to the style, substance, and depth of the wad and what just adds to the wad.

That's just one person's opinion but not a fact.

I'm going to suggest taking a look at Alien Vendetta, Vrack2b, Wonderful Doom, and ZDoom Community Map Project (for a few examples) to see how proper gameplay should be. Doesn't mean that EtIV has to be as hard as some of the aforementioned wads, but it needs to be as well planned as all of the above to shine in the area of gameplay.

I think that Alien Vendetta's gameplay is debatable. I for sure don't find it the slightest bit appealing.

and killer force fields are yet another shitty zdoom feature that is used because it's there more than need. Use a blocking line or something.

Killer forcefields are not a ZDoom feature. They are just ACS scripts used badly because everything that happens with such a forcefield has to be scripted by the mapper.

[John Smith]

No graf I'm pretty sure particle fountains are always bad. Being particle fountains they cannot look like anything other than particles (which in zdoom is a term to describe large freestanding pixels) being thrown up in the air. I've yet to see them used convincingly anywhere ever, and only on rare occasion do they not detract from the surrounding scenery. I welcome you to show me examples to the contrary.

To be honest I don't care what you think about AV, thats just one persons opinion, not a fact :P

And I didn't know how forcefields are made, nor did I wish to take a potshot at zdoom (after all, I can immediately think of a way to make fake forcefields in vanilla), I was merely intending to point out they're a bad design choice.

[ReX]

John Smith said:

No graf particle fountains are always bad. It is a fact. Being particle fountains they cannot look like anything other than particles (which in zdoom is a term to describe large freestanding pixels) being thrown up in the air. I've yet to see them used convincingly anywhere ever, and only on rare occasion do they not detract from the surrounding scenery. I welcome you to show me examples to the contrary.

Using particle fountains to simulate underwater bubbles works just fine.

I was merely intending to point out they're a bad design choice.

That they're "a bad design choice" is a matter of opinion. For my part, I think they have a place in maps with a sci-fi/military theme.

[Lüt]

John Smith said:

No graf I'm pretty sure particle fountains are always bad.

Espi used one in Millennium and I liked it.

[CodeImp]

http://princemegahit.ytmnd.com/

[Graf Zahl]

John Smith said:

To be honest I don't care what you think about AV, thats just one persons opinion, not a fact :P

I never stated it as a fact. I said it's 'debatable' because I know that I'm not the only one who doesn't like it. That's a major difference in semantics than saying 'And they look like shit every time they're used.', don't you think? ;)

ReX said:

That they're "a bad design choice" is a matter of opinion. For my part, I think they have a place in maps with a sci-fi/military theme.

Precisely. If done right (e.g. color coding force fields (green for merely blocking, red for deadly) or putting warníng signs beside them) they are ok - but the map's setting should be something that fits.

[John Smith]

CodeImp: haha best particle fountain usage ever.

[kristus]

FWIW, I like Stealth monsters.

[Enjay]

Laser barriers: I like (when done well). Thought the ones in KDiZD looked, sounded and functioned well. I especially liked the fact that in the last level I got to use the barriers against the enemies and damage/kill them as they tried to get through.

Particle fountains can look good IMO. Not hugely realistic, I guess, but when used in things like "cryogenic tanks" storing creatures or whatever they add positively to the effect IMO. The problem is that they do just look like pixels being thrown upwards. A more customisable system of particles where you could specify how much they are affected by gravity, or make them come from a more closely defined origin (ie make them look like a fountain), specify their speed or whatever would be good but it's not a big priority for Zdoom development.

Stealth monsters. I don't like them. Perhaps if they faded to almost invisibility, rather than total, I could put up with them but having something wandering around and giving no clues as to its whereabouts is just annoying IMO.

ReX said:

Yes, I agree that the player freezing is annoying. However, the reason I set it up that way is other scripts don't get activated until the HUD message script is completed. Therefore, if the player runs to the teleporter at the start of the map, the teleport will not work until the HUD message script has been completed. My plan for a work-around is to allow the player to skip the intro area completely, teleport directly to the "crossroads", and be ready to enter any one of the 3 maps.

My workaround for that is usually something like this:

Surround the player with blocking lines that you give a special to. The special is a script that terminates the intro script, does the essential level start stuff, unfreezes the player, unblocks the lines and clears the special off them.

If the intro script is allowed to run its full course, the last few things it does is unfreeze the player and unblock the lines surrounding him, clearing the special off those lines too. Alternatively, you can just make the last line of the intro script call the same script as the player would call by using the lines.

I usually also put up a little message just to confirm that pressing [use] will skip the intro.