Progress

[danarchist]

What is societal progress really? In this society, we believe that advancement is done via technology. Some others believe the continuation of religeon is the way to go. But let's think about this. Is this really what we need to advance as a society?

Perhaps it is our philisophical mentality which is most needed for progress. Personaly, I believe that progression religeon and technology will only result in the end of humanity. But mayhap if we progress our society by improving upon our social philosophy and by increasing real education among the masses, we can strengthen society and perhaps even save ourselves from total destruction.

I have spoken. Now it is time for discussion.

[ShadyXMR]

I have spoken. Now it is time for discussion.

YES LEADER WE WILL FOLLOW YOU.

Anywho, that all sounds like a plug for communism.

I, unlike many people, have no faith in large groups of people.

[Fredrik]

But mayhap if we progress our society by improving upon our social philosophy and by increasing real education among the masses, we can strengthen society and perhaps even save ourselves from total destruction.

I couldn't disagree less

[IMJack]

What is societal progress really?

Good question. "Progress," particularly societal progress, isn't a tangible thing or measure. It's all based on relative perspectives. The upper class and the advantaged intellectuals will think that society is the most advanced its ever been. Intellectuals of average means tend to think society is at its lowest point ever. Everyone else fails to care, because the concept of "progress" has no impact on their lives and means nothing to them in any pertinant way.

Perhaps it is our philisophical mentality which is most needed for progress. Personaly, I believe that progression religeon and technology will only result in the end of humanity.

Religion and technology, in and of themselves, cannot bring about the end of the world. A concept has no real-world impact. It's the crazies who do strange things in the name of religion, or the fools who use technology without considering the consequences, that do real damage.

But mayhap if we progress our society by improving upon our social philosophy and by increasing real education among the masses, we can strengthen society and perhaps even save ourselves from total destruction.

You can lead a plebe to knowledge, but you can't make him think. While these philosophical musings may make sense to you and the other people on this board, it would look to some others like mental masturbation and coffeehouse politics; to the rest of the world at large, it's incomprehensible and inconsequential. No offense. :)

I have spoken. Now it is time for discussion.

I'm feeling verklempt... Talk amongst yoursalves... I'll give you a topic... Is society improving or going down the shitter, and is it possible to do both at once?

[danarchist]

Religion and technology, in and of themselves, cannot bring about the end of the world. A concept has no real-world impact. It's the crazies who do strange things in the name of religion, or the fools who use technology without considering the consequences, that do real damage

True, but there are always nuts who will use these things to their advantage. Society will always have them, and sadly they always seem to gain power because of this. Perhaps if their ability to do such were restricted...

There are many examples of uneeded technology that is around today: nuclear weapons, complex artificial inteligence, full human cloning, and the newly invented field of cybernetics. These will all lead us to opression and possibly mind control.

[ShadyXMR]

Humans will always progress in either direction, and to curb it or truncate it is like trying to beat out an instinct in a wild animal that you're trying to domesticate.

[IMJack]

True, but there are always nuts who will use these things to their advantage. Society will always have them, and sadly they always seem to gain power because of this. Perhaps if their ability to do such were restricted...

Hmmm. How would you do that? Go around rounding up those who you deem would be a "threat" to the common good? Seize and destroy the literature that puts ideas in their head, and the books that teach them to build and work with technology? Gee, who else do we know who did that...?

There are many examples of uneeded technology that is around today: nuclear weapons, complex artificial inteligence, full human cloning, and the newly invented field of cybernetics. These will all lead us to opression and possibly mind control.

Or they could lead us to a new and better world. If they hadn't developed nuclear weapons, they wouldn't have developed nuclear power, and your precious computer probably wouldn't work. Human cloning and cyber research could do medical miracles... maybe even give my dad his arm back. And how would you derive methods of oppression out of an artificial intelligence, or get mind control from cloning research?

[danarchist]

Hmmm. How would you do that? Go around rounding up those who you deem would be a "threat" to the common good? Seize and destroy the literature that puts ideas in their head, and the books that teach them to build and work with technology? Gee, who else do we know who did that...?

You put words in my mouth! I never said I had a solution, I just said that it was a problem.

Or they could lead us to a new and better world. If they hadn't developed nuclear weapons, they wouldn't have developed nuclear power,

Oh drat, like the country actualy is dependant on nuclear power. Of course I blame this solely on the oil companies. Plus, nulcear power is about as bad as fossil fuels when it comes to environmental effects. Furthermore, I haven't even touched on hydroelectric power, which is cheap, clean, and produces a good amount of industry.

and your precious computer probably wouldn't work.

Oh no! I CAN live without my computer you know...I do have a life...sort of.

Human cloning and cyber research could do medical miracles... maybe even give my dad his arm back.

I said full human cloning. Individual organ cloning is probably a good thing. But if the government could continue to breed clones, what use would normal free-thinking humans be to them? And cybernetics, though potentialy good, could also be used for mind control. The government could make it mandatory for computer chips to be installed into everyones brains. They could do this very easily. Scientists have already learned how to fuse brain cells with silicon chips. Whats next?

And how would you derive methods of oppression out of an artificial intelligence, or get mind control from cloning research?

As I have already shown above, cloning and cybernetics can be easily turned into mind control. And artificial intelligence, besides being easily linked into cybernetics, can be deadly by itself if a highly inteligent AI were placed into an important computer system (i.e. the defence computers) or, less likely, into android bodies.
It may all sound like science fiction, but its possible.

[Zaldron]

There are many examples of uneeded technology that is around today: nuclear weapons, complex artificial inteligence, full human cloning, and the newly invented field of cybernetics. These will all lead us to opression and possibly mind control.

That is SO wrong.

Nuclear weapons are the best propulsors in existence. If we could detonate nuclear explosions on Space we could have a starship in Alpha Centauri in 67 YEARS. That's 10% of light's speed and that's likely to improve since this was possible decades ago with the Daedalus project.

My father works with complex artificial intelligences. Predicting catastrophic weather changes is wrong, huh?
And what about stocks prediction? Or analogic data processing? How about learning techniques to improve robot's capabilities?

Human cloning is in the middle of the storm right now, so I'm not commenting.

Cybernetics = THE REVOLUTION. Silicon interphasing with neurons. Dude there's so many possibilities. So many diseases and conditions could be healed. It's that bad to wish you could walk again?

We'll never see oppresion and mind control, because of the simple fact that dedicated scientists make their researchs available to the public right from the beginning. They don't work in the dark in some secret bunker plotting against the world like in Comics or bad action movies.

Money cannot buy creativity or intelligence.

[Zaldron]

Oh drat, like the country actualy is dependant on nuclear power. Of course I blame this solely on the oil companies. Plus, nulcear power is about as bad as fossil fuels when it comes to environmental effects. Furthermore, I haven't even touched on hydroelectric power, which is cheap, clean, and produces a good amount of industry.

DUDE, it IS dependant on nuclear power!

Oil doesn't do shit anymore, and you can't your country's hidrography by adding hydroelectrical plants everywhere. It makes drastic changes to water's distribution. You could ruin so many fields and farms by doing that.

Solar power = useless until we find a way to build the panels with shattered silicon.

Geotermic = crap.

Eolic (sp?) = crap.

Fusion = not applicable yet.

Yeah, nuclear's not good for the atmosphere, but it produces way more power than oil-based for the same amount of pollution. Nuclear is pretty clean, actually. It's the waste that needs to be threated with special care.

[IMJack]

As I have already shown above, cloning and cybernetics can be easily turned into mind control.

"Shown"? You made a leap of logic big enough to fit a Buick into. "Cloning" does not and has never directly implied "mind control." Cybernetics could, but have you any idea how expensive, time-consuming, dangerous, and counter-productive that would be for anybody stupid enough to try it?

And artificial intelligence, besides being easily linked into cybernetics, can be deadly by itself if a highly inteligent AI were placed into an important computer system (i.e. the defence computers) or, less likely, into android bodies.

Somebody's seen WarGames and The Terminator a few too many times, I see. Their both great movies, I admit, but not much to justify one's beliefs by. Just because it's a very common device in sci-fi does not mean it's likely that an AI will be self-aware and go berzerk.

It may all sound like science fiction, but its possible.

Not in my lifetime, man.

You remind me of my roommate at school. He is convinced, absolutely convinced, that the Rapture and the Apocalypse will happen in his lifetime. He bases all of his theories on funny interpretations of current news combined with a lot of hack Christian literature and the rantings of right-wing crazies. And he simply refuses to take a look around him and realize: People have believed that the world was going to end ever since antiquity. Sure there is a whole bunch of stuf going on; sure there are a lot of new, potentially dangerous advances being made. But such things have been happening, such advances have been being made, for decades. Same shit, different year, and nothing to get unduly worked up about. Remember, Noone knows the day or the hour.

Sure there are crazies in the world; but crazies who have the resources, influence, and absolute lack of intelligence necessary to enslave/destroy the world simply do not exist. And regardless of what you might think, danny-boy, the government is not one big conspiracy out to get you specifically. :) So stop worrying about what might theoretically be, and live.

[Zaldron]

I said full human cloning. Individual organ cloning is probably a good thing. But if the government could continue to breed clones, what use would normal free-thinking humans be to them?

Oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like if we humans would actively clone people that's supposed to replace us. It's not like they have robot soldiers and scientist. A person would NEVER be in charge or supporting something like that.

And cybernetics, though potentialy good, could also be used for mind control. The government could make it mandatory for computer chips to be installed into everyones brains.

And who's gonna apply that law? Are they gonna send the terrible soldiers of death? No, because not even security and military forces would accept that. They're not drones, but people.

As I have already shown above, cloning and cybernetics can be easily turned into mind control. And artificial intelligence, besides being easily linked into cybernetics, can be deadly by itself if a highly inteligent AI were placed into an important computer system (i.e. the defence computers) or, less likely, into android bodies.

Way too much Asimov for you. So someone's gonna raise it's own personal cloned army with chips that control them via a super computer bent in World domination placed on a big giant robot body with missile launchers and chainguns?

I can imagine so many problems for that. SO many.

It may all sound like science fiction, but its possible.

We should worry in teaching people to not harm eachother instead of worrying about Dr. Evil and hist latest Plan 8 of World Domination approved by Majestic 12 and the Aliens from the Vega system who created the Ancients that live inside the Earth and launch UFO's from North Pole's hole.

[Zaldron]

Heh, glad to see some support, IMJack :)

This is why I hate this forum.

[Fredrik]

Technology doesn't kill people, people do!

[IMJack]

Shit'chyeah, Zaldron. Demented minds rant alike! :)

[Gokuma]

Who needs hardcore mind control when you can just manipulate public opinion through the media and schools?

Well some people might.

"Mind control technology has been used by the CIA since the 1950's as part of their non-lethal, covert weapons program."

[ShadyXMR]

Technology doesn't kill people, people do!

Correct. I wonder why I don't see any of those "Technology control" fanaticists out there posting threads.

[Lüt]

Remember, Noone knows the day or the hour.

So why are you so certain it won't happen in his lifetime?

I wonder why I don't see any of those "Technology control" fanaticists out there posting threads.

WINDOWS 95, DAMMIT!!!

[pilottobombadier]

Progress? What we're doing is called making progress? Fuck, you coulda fooled me!

[IMJack]

Remember, Noone knows the day or the hour.

So why are you so certain it won't happen in his lifetime?

I never said that. I don't pretend to know when the end of the world will come. Frankly, I ain't gonna care until it's happening. My arguement was that this guy puts total faith into what he reads and what his "elders" tell him, and doesn't rely on his own perception and judgement in such matters. He's a smart guy, too. Idiots don't become EE majors.

[danarchist]

Meh. I guess I went off on a slippery slope tangent, but do realize I didn't say it WAS going to happen, but more along the lines that it COULD happen.

These are things I do know for sure:
-There are new power sorces being invented nowadays which are more proficient and cleaner than either nuclear or oil, but they havn't been put into use because the oil companies have been lobbying to keep it away from funding and under wraps. The newest source of power I've heard of is something much akin to 'microwave power' from SimCity. I don't know much about it though, because all I caught was a 10-second blurb on the news about it.
-At the rate the population is growing combined with the rate that photosynthetic organisms are being killed off, there will not be enough oxygen for mankind to breathe in about 75 years. This sounds pretty apocolyptic, but it is survivable. For instance, I'm going to build me a big ol' greenhouse attached to my house. When the reports start coming in that people are asphyxiating out in the open, I'm sealing the place. :p

Also, I'd like to know more about nuclear weapons used for propulsion. I'm intrigued...

[Zaldron]

Also, I'd like to know more about nuclear weapons used for propulsion. I'm intrigued...

Carl Sagan's Cosmos. It's basically a ship with an inertia surface. The bomb detonates and transmits an ungodly amount of energy to the ship's body, resulting in quasi-linear movement with infimal friction.

[IMJack]

Here's a fun fact: Whenever there has been a large population of humans struck by any kind of natural disease or calamity, on average only a maximum of 33% of that population dies. There has never been a mortality rate higher than about 38-40% in such cases. This has held through a lot of the old plagues, and a lot of recent epidemics in third-world nations as well.

As to your theory that the world will run out of air, it's very unlikely tha people will drop dead, asphyxiated, on the streets. The human body adapts when air begins to thin; the heart grows stronger to be able to get more out of less air. Frankly, its more plausible to die from toxins present in the air than from simple lack of oxygen.

[danarchist]

As to your theory that the world will run out of air, it's very unlikely tha people will drop dead, asphyxiated, on the streets. The human body adapts when air begins to thin; the heart grows stronger to be able to get more out of less air. Frankly, its more plausible to die from toxins present in the air than from simple lack of oxygen.

Umm, humans cannot survive with a complete lack of oxygen. It would take generations to begin to adapt to the lack of air. This is going to take place in two maybe three generations. The only way we could survive it is if enough humans die, so there is enough air left for the rest. It's morbid, I know, but if we don't shape up, we could be facing this harsh reality.

[IMJack]

Ever take an extended vacation to the mountains, or any other extreme-elevation area? You may spend a few days a little out of breath, but eventually you adapt. The human organism is a lot more adaptable than you give it credit for; if it weren't, this pathetic bunch of hairless monkey rejects wouldn't have survived as long as it has.

The population is growing at this time, but it will eventually level off, be it due to disease, starvation, or thin/polluted air. The total mass of photosynthetic plants may be dropping at this time, but it's not like mankind is on a mission to wipe every green thing off the face of the Earth, ya dig? Also, while humans may suffer in an atmosphere with too much carbon dioxide and not enough oxygen, plants would absolutely flourish. Nature will assert itself, and equillibrium will be restored.

One thing I notice about these coffehouse politikos, they have absolutely no faith in humanity and its common sense. It's pretty sad.

Oh, and danarchist? When you seal yourself in your greenhouse, remember to turn yourself every hour or so, and baste yourself evenly. It gets pretty frickin' hot in those things (believe me, I have one attached to my house as well) and you'll want to be properly cooked when the survivors break into your home and eat you. :)

[ShadyXMR]

Regarding the human population, I believe that ecologists have compared it to studies they have done with various animals who have an exponential population. That is, a sharp and prolonged period of rapid, steep increase and then a sharp decline, almost into extinction (some do die off if they are not genetically diverse).

Anyway, if you take a line graph of the growth of the population in the past several hundred years, it is strikingly similar to the natural exponential model. And if history repeats itself (and we end up being in fact no smarter than animals), we SHOULD experience a sharp decline, if not extinction.

The type that levels off is not the exponential type of population. They have a steady, linear increase for a long period.

[danarchist]

Oh, and danarchist? When you seal yourself in your greenhouse, remember to turn yourself every hour or so, and baste yourself evenly. It gets pretty frickin' hot in those things (believe me, I have one attached to my house as well) and you'll want to be properly cooked when the survivors break into your home and eat you. :)

I actualy DID take this into consideration. Note that I didn't say I'd seal myself into the greenhouse, but I'd have it connected to the house in which i'd seal myself into. So nyah!