The /newstuff Chronicles #328

[esselfortium]

I really liked some of the maps Eternal reworked/detailed for the Freakmapping contest a while back, but I've got to agree with Tango here. :\

[Bloodshedder]

Those look like a worst-case scenario of bad lighting, poor texture choice, and the Doom palette, all combined.

[Death-Destiny]

Aww. I thought 32 in. nails looked really good. I thought the texture choice and especially the architecture were very well done. The choice of texturing and lighting is one element I thought lent so much to the atmosphere.

[Use]

Tango said:

Breaking a code or not, I would say that this and this are ugly any way you look at it.

Nope sorry, still your opinion talking. Within the context of the maps and the settings portrayed I didn't see anything garishly horrible looking. You know I favor abstract textured/designed maps anyway right? That's really the main reason I even downloaded this.

Tango said:

I would consider someone like Dutch Devil to be creative when it comes to using stock textures...

Hah, of course you do.

[John Smith]

Obviously peoples ideas about wads are opinion any way you look at it. Although it would probably be ideal if they didn't present their ideas as fact, the fact is nobody lives in an ideal world. People state their opinion as if it were the Truth of God™ all the time, intentionally or not. Getting worked up over it is retarded.

[entryway]

Death-Destiny said:

Aww. I thought 32 in. nails looked really good. I thought the texture choice and especially the architecture were very well done. The choice of texturing and lighting is one element I thought lent so much to the atmosphere.

It's simple. Who said it's ugly, he did not play it at all or played with cheats (probably without sound or music). Who cares about such opinions?

[Deeforce]

Tango said:

Also is it just me or are Eternal's maps really ugly :[

It’s an old-school wad, so “strange“ appearance is normal here (in comparison to other wads that are not old-school like).

[entryway]

It's not an old-school at all! Anybody else think it's an old-school?

[kristus]

I don't think anything that use "limit removing" can be referred to as "old-school".
I've not really played much of 32iN so far. I got to say it's a refreshing creation though. And I agree with Use3D.

I don't necessarily think it "looks good" though. It's interesting and well crafted. And that is what makes it good.

[myk]

Speaking in absolute terms, are we? In that sense nothing is new school because it all relies on the antique DOOM games.

While due to the size of the levels it requires hacks or source modification, it's definitely old school as far as linedef or thing features used in the levels are concerned (nothing from any source ports)*. It's "vanilla" in that respect, which something that is quite "old school". Also, the use of the 32 unit grid guarantees no small scale detailing, giving it a blockier old school feel than most modern PWADs.

* The old/new school dichotomy revolves mainly around game behavior, and occurs in respect to source ports changing or not changing how the game plays.

Regardless, I don't really have a need to justify a look according to what something is supposed to be. That's like saying "yeah it looks kind of crappy but it's okay because it's for DOOM". This WAD looks pretty good, although some parts came out better than others.

Aesthetic preferences for level design is largely an acquired taste, in any case. I've even been getting kind of tired and bored of the curvier and neater designs of modern WADs, which this WAD steers away from due to its design method. Many "crappy" WADs use engine capabilities in a franker, more natural way than those that try so hard to look like something else, and that has its charm.

[kristus]

Splitting hairs are we?
Doom is an old game, and there's the old and the new "schools" of it. People of the old school are generally about "the way we were" before ports. And 32iN requires ports. That it's using an aestetic limitation hardly makes it old school, since it never been an old school limitation.

It's using the bare minimum of ports so people can use any port they like. Doesn't make it old school. Just makes it widely compatible. But if someone else thinks it's old-school, fuck if I care. I just stated what I considered old vs new school. And I find that anything that requires the use of ports are not old school.

But I don't really waste a lot of time worrying about that either way, though for the sake of argument. You could argue that it's "middle school".

[myk]

kristus said:
People of the old school are generally about "the way we were" before ports. And 32iN requires ports.

I'm not splitting hairs, I'm dismissing a misconception I'm fully aware of. While the division may be brought up in regard to supporting the use of older programs (notably the original executables), it's also about how ports and their features are used and the gameplay provided. Hence you have old school settings, servers, levels or players on ZDaemon or whatever. Had this WAD used Boom features or the like, it would have been much less "old school" (or "purist"). "Old school" is what reincorporates older functionality into source port trees that veer away from the behavior of the original game. "Doom compatibility" in PrBoom is owed especially to old school proponents, purists, and COMPET-N fans demanding something to play "old-school-style" on their modern systems.

It not really about styles, as what you said might suggest, because the dichotomy isn't usually brought up in respect to imitating old levels. They are terms that came up mainly in the multiplayer scene in regard to general gameplay (as well as sticking to old classic levels which make that valuable).

kristus said:
It's using the bare minimum of ports so people can use any port they like.

Some people prefer "vanilla" levels for more than just compatibility. They like the simplicity of the way they play, or their technical specifics.

[Khorus]

It's one of the more interesting wads I've played in a long time. I thought the texturing was very creative and it worked well with me.

[GreyGhost]

The terminology we use to categorise wads appears to be a little inadequate - if some of the above posts are any guide. I suggest we adapt and adopt some of the terminology used by the fine arts community to categorise wads according to their style and influences. For example - sandbox maps obviously belong to the "Petersen school", realistic architecture to the "Hall school", on-the-grid maps are "Cubist", a lot of Ruba's maps are either "Impressionist" or "Surrealist", newbie-style maps are "Naive" or "Primitive". Maps designed to use advanced port features can be further categorised as "feature poor/rich/overloaded". Detail level can also be noted as "non-existent/minimalist/(whatever's a polite word for detail whoring)".

Is this idea worth developing or am I just barking mad? Suggestions please.

[myk]

GreyGhost said:
Is this idea worth developing or am I just barking mad?

Communities or disciplines usually define their own terminology as they go from labelings that stick, and style terms are often more subjective than technical ones. Saying "detail whoring" carries the opinion that it sucks (unless it's a facetious statement, of course) and calling Ruba's maps "surreal" may imply they are valuable or tolerable. Besides, as far as I can see, Ruba's levels seem to imitate or play with newbie-level characteristics, so maybe "newbie-styled" would fit, especially if it's done on purpose (hence giving them an actual style).

[Gez]

GreyGhost said:

(whatever's a polite word for detail whoring)

Baroque.

[myk]

Yeah, could be Baroque architecture (you could also have Baroque scripting, voodoo doll use, trap sequences, or the like).

[Creaphis]

If we wish to introduce the names of musical artistic movements, then SLIGE levels could be given the "combinatorial" or "serialist" label, as those songs could have been constructed randomly as well.

[BoldEnglishman]

But Baroque was not limited to music.

[Butts]

here is human nature at its finest, categorizing every little thing neatly and orderly. however i really like the baroque design.

[40oz]

I dont care what you guys think, 32 in Nails maybe one of my favorite wads ever.

The only thing that I would consider ugly in it is that some of the giant rooms, (particularly the room in this /newstuff's screenshot) use 128x128 textures, so when it's used on those walls, the texture repeats about 30 times from the floor to the ceiling. However, I make exception to that due to the 'rules' stating that he is only allowed to use stock doom textures.

I honestly couldn't care less about his choice in texturing and architecture. The thing that really hits me is that I can play this with PrBoom just fine, there's no shortage of health and ammo. Ever. There are TONS of monsters. Rarely do any rooms appear "plain" to me. This wad certainly wins me over. I can't beat map05 though. Got no idea what to do after getting the red key.

[jute]

Creaphis said:

If we wish to introduce the names of musical artistic movements, then SLIGE levels could be given the "combinatorial" or "serialist" label, as those songs could have been constructed randomly as well.

I think I hear Stockhausen weeping.