Sunder - Map20 Appears, finally.

[taviow]

Hey @Insane_Gazebo

 

I just want to ask a few questions... well, a central question that I can separate into several different questions. But basically what do you do when you have a blank slate? I'm just wondering how you go about starting a map which will eventually be such a huge monstrosity (especially map 21 where this statement will be even more true).

 

How does your pre-mapping work looks like, I suppose you already have sort of a conceptual idea already in mind before you start? How do you go about finding all these textures, since each map nowadays seems to look almost entirely distinct from the others? Is your work linear, like do you always literally start with the starting room for the player? Or do you just draw a big square and start filling it in?

 

I know that you do mapping streams, but I'm just kind of wondering about the start of it all. I hope it's not too much of a bother, I'm just fascinated that you manage to do these things.

[Shepardus]

43 minutes ago, taviow said:

How does your pre-mapping work looks like, I suppose you already have sort of a conceptual idea already in mind before you start? How do you go about finding all these textures, since each map nowadays seems to look almost entirely distinct from the others? Is your work linear, like do you always literally start with the starting room for the player? Or do you just draw a big square and start filling it in?

In case you haven't seen, IG shared some screenshots of early mapping process here:

 

 

[xdude_gamer]

On 6/29/2022 at 9:01 AM, Insane_Gazebo said:

WOW.

[taviow]

22 hours ago, Shepardus said:

In case you haven't seen, IG shared some screenshots of early mapping process here:

 

 

 

Thank you, that is already very helpful.

 

I suppose it's also hard to explain things that probably come very naturally to IG. So I expect it's probably a bunch of hard questions to answer.

[Insane_Gazebo]

On 7/5/2022 at 6:58 AM, taviow said:

Hey @Insane_Gazebo

 

I just want to ask a few questions... well, a central question that I can separate into several different questions. But basically what do you do when you have a blank slate? I'm just wondering how you go about starting a map which will eventually be such a huge monstrosity (especially map 21 where this statement will be even more true).

 

How does your pre-mapping work looks like, I suppose you already have sort of a conceptual idea already in mind before you start? How do you go about finding all these textures, since each map nowadays seems to look almost entirely distinct from the others? Is your work linear, like do you always literally start with the starting room for the player? Or do you just draw a big square and start filling it in?

 

I know that you do mapping streams, but I'm just kind of wondering about the start of it all. I hope it's not too much of a bother, I'm just fascinated that you manage to do these things.

 

I usually start with my concept. This map was supposed to have giant meaty tunnels branching off in different directions, so I figured I would start with them and start building things around them. So I drew a big box and started messing around and made this very basic thing.



I thought the white/red worked pretty well but didn't like the shape very much so I tried again.




And then eventually for some reason the little pools of blood there made me thing of foliage so I dug up some red tree sprites and threw them in.

Once I've got my texture/map theme down then I get down to detailing the entry room just to confirm I'm on the right track, then start drawing random shapes either until ideas form or work them into ideas I've had for fights and so on.

Hopefully that's kinda helpful. 

[BCHQ]

The weirdest looking map so far, and most intriguing. Kinda hard to imagine it with monsters and ammo. Can't wait to play it =)

[Yasha]

The most mind-blowing thing about this is that Sunder still adheres pretty much exactly to the same map format as commercial Doom, besides obviously having way more lines/vertices/everything available. The fact that the changes Romero made from Wolf 3D to Doom (walls at any arbitrary angle, sky textures, per-sector textures, differing floor heights, etc.) allow for Sunder to be possible is just nuts.

[ukiro]

1 hour ago, Yasha said:

walls at any arbitrary angle

I think one of the most remarkable aspects of Sunder is how little it actually uses this; I can think of no other modern or highly regarded wad that is as orthogonal as Sunder. 

Edited July 18, 2022 by ukiro

[taviow]

Has anyone else ever had a lack of archvile flames happening in Sunder? Happens to me while playing in dsda-doom, be it software mode or OpenGL. I haven't played a huge number of things, but it seems a problem very particular to this wad as far as I've seen. It's reproducible in the sense that I've seen it happening elsewhere (decino stream of Map 18 iirc). It's fairly mysterious in that I can't tell what triggers it or how to fix it, although it eventually seems to fix itself. But I will say that there is nothing quite like trying to do the archie pool fight in Map 15 or the final battle without Archvile flames, though thankfully you still have the sound to guide you somewhat.

[FlakTaryd]

A couple years since I've last used this site. It brings a smile on my face whenever I see the next update for Sunder, let alone the screenshots of the maps WIP. A complaint I have is the song "Suspense" remix played in map, Grinder not only very loud, but also very annoying after a while. "Demons on the Prey" is more tolerable in the Hollow Icon at least. Could suggest to choose a different song for Grinder to fit with the map, but it's up to ya. 

I've watched decino's stream of this megawad, he finds Grinder's song to be irritating as he expresses his frustration with this map. I don't blame him, I felt the same sediment as the title of this level lives to its name. As for the 21st map, loving the red/white aesthetics, absolutely gorgeous!

Edited September 7, 2022 by FlakTaryd

[FlakTaryd]

Out of all the current maps of Sunder I've played, Grinder has to be my least favorite, living up to its name being compact and claustrophobic. Don't have a favorite yet but currently it's the Furnace. Have yet to play 16-20 and 31-32, though my PC will handle the Babylon's Chimera just fine. Least I hope so without getting the shitty headache inducing framerate drops.

Edited September 13, 2022 by FlakTaryd

[Thelokk]

13 hours ago, FlakTaryd said:

Out of all the current maps of Sunder I've played, Grinder has to be my least favorite, living up to its name being compact and claustrophobic. Don't have a favorite yet but currently it's the Furnace. Have yet to play 16-20 and 31-32, though my PC will handle the Babylon's Chimera just fine. Least I hope so without getting the shitty headache inducing framerate drops.

 

I don't mind Grinder but it's definitely one of my least favorite as well, mostly because its architecture makes large sections of it super-cheesable - the knights perch, for example.

Also the visual  'theme' doesn't feel as fresh to me as, say, map03 or map14 (mediocre combat but the visuals 100%, redeem). 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Thelokk

[Jiggahertz]

On 9/13/2022 at 2:59 PM, FlakTaryd said:

Out of all the current maps of Sunder I've played, Grinder has to be my least favorite, living up to its name being compact and claustrophobic. Don't have a favorite yet but currently it's the Furnace. Have yet to play 16-20 and 31-32, though my PC will handle the Babylon's Chimera just fine. Least I hope so without getting the shitty headache inducing framerate drops.

Grinder just so happens to be the map that I have to play next, since I've beaten maps 1-5 so far, so I'm curious to see how Grinder will be. So far there hasn't been a single map so far that I would say I "hate" or that has really annoyed me, so hopefully Grinder won't be the first

[FlakTaryd]

Grinder isn't a bad level but I had several conniptions accompanied by the aforementioned song that gives me an aneurysm after playing it for an hour cause goddamn that has to be the loudest sound within this megawad! It could be better for sure, however I don't think of this map too fondly with its design and lack of backtracking, which is quite exhausting.

Edited September 15, 2022 by FlakTaryd

[FlakTaryd]

Fortunately, my current PC is able to handle the Babylon's Chimera at a consistent framerate but ofc I had to be mindful of some areas. And I have barely scratched the surface of the next map, Whispers of the Gnarled King. I've glanced at the automap and it does seem it's gonna be an labyrinthian puzzle.

[Jacek Bourne]

20 hours ago, FlakTaryd said:

Fortunately, my current PC is able to handle the Babylon's Chimera at a consistent framerate but ofc I had to be mindful of some areas. And I have barely scratched the surface of the next map, Whispers of the Gnarled King. I've glanced at the automap and it does seem it's gonna be an labyrinthian puzzle.

Don’t worry. It’s completely linear.

[FlakTaryd]

Hopefully the latter map doesn't chug the frames as much as Babylon's Chimera lul.

[taviow]

Hey guys! I just wanted to drop by to share my complete and utter joy of having completed Sunder! I started playing perhaps 6ish months ago playing on and off, without any real commitment because I just didn't see myself actually finishing it. Weirdly enough, now that I played all the maps I can say this, but across all of the maps Grinder was perhaps the one that was hardest for me overall and presented the greatest roadblock because I just wasn't ready to tackle it at all when I got to it. It's a very intense difficulty jump in comparison to the first 5.

 

But regardless I kept playing, eventually I got through Map06, and little by little I actually managed to do the first 14 maps. Took a break again when I got to 15 and I had no idea when I'd return because the maps were just so big, it felt exhausting to even think about playing them. But I couldn't leave it alone, it kept gnawing at me that I had to play the new maps, since I had to finish what I started after all and upon playing them I discovered the absolute joy that these new maps are.

 

I've been on an absolute binge ever since Map32, it's still one of my favorite maps of the current set, after I beat that final fight I just kept anxiously wanting to play the next one, I would get off work and play Sunder as soon as I could pretty much every day since.

 

Then came Map16, and I did have some trouble with that one, but I prevailed. Then 17 and 18, both of which albeit shorter have some really nasty fights (the crushers, the courtyard, the throne room, shudders), and then the utterly brutal Map19 which I absolutely loved, the combination of cramped fights in buildings with the occasional big fight and all along the way the increasing anticipation, the build up to getting the BFG and then being finally able to unleash it upon 4000+ monsters, it's just an unbeatable feeling and it's the most bombastic finale of all the maps.

 

And I'm just blown away by 20, I'm still right now reacting to that gorgeous final room (but the Cyberdemons were really mean!), and I have to say it's the most inventive map so far, perhaps the most beautiful as well. Absolutely incredible stuff. The light sequences have truly put the visuals on yet another level entirely.

 

Here's a picture to celebrate this occasion:

 

 

 

 

 

Well, that was really something. I feel incredibly grateful for these maps, it has been an absolute blast. I absolutely can't decide between 32, 19 and 20 as for which one is my favorite, but I have to really think about it because recency bias would have me name Map20, but then again that Map19 finale is unmatched, I don't even know.

 

Anyway, it feels like a real accomplishment to have done this, what an absolutely insane mapset, fittingly I might say! All these maps have been absolutely fun and incredibly inspiring, and literally made me a better played through an absolute trial by fire. Certainly kindled a newfound love for the slaughter genre. Thank you very much @Insane_Gazebo.

Edited October 3, 2022 by taviow

[Jiggahertz]

On 9/14/2022 at 5:51 PM, Jiggahertz said:

Grinder just so happens to be the map that I have to play next, since I've beaten maps 1-5 so far, so I'm curious to see how Grinder will be. So far there hasn't been a single map so far that I would say I "hate" or that has really annoyed me, so hopefully Grinder won't be the first

Just beat Grinder. I didn't find it to be noticeably more difficult than any of the previous maps, pretty much the same difficulty. The only hard part was the final fight but that's because I unintentionally made that harder on myself by only using 1 invulnerability instead of 2 because I didn't see the second one.

But yeah there wasn't a single moment on this level that I would consider to be annoying, and I also didn't think the song was too loud at all. Definitely disagree with the opinion that Grinder is the worst map

[Insane_Gazebo]

Don't have a lot to show off other than a shot of the main area from the reverse direction, but progress has been quite good recently with most of the fights roughed in and only a handful of areas left to detail.
 

 

[Thelokk]

1 minute ago, Insane_Gazebo said:

Don't have a lot to show off other than a shot of the main area from the reverse direction, but progress has been quite good recently with most of the fights roughed in and only a handful of areas left to detail.
 

 

 

Looking great as always!

[taviow]

Wanted to give 21 likes but I only have one! Hah.

[Jacek Bourne]

Excellent.

[Flyxolydian]

I'm wondering whether you'll break the 10k barrier for monsters before map 30. 

Also, looking amazing as usual. 

[Jiggahertz]

4 hours ago, Flyxolydian said:

I'm wondering whether you'll break the 10k barrier for monsters before map 30. 

Also, looking amazing as usual. 

I'm just trying to imagine what map 30 is going to be like lol

[doomworlduser]

It's nice to walk around with notarget and look at the architecture, otherwise a pistol start with 1000 imps...and then 1000 monsters every room thereafter for the rest of it...no thanks haha.

[ducon]

11 hours ago, Jiggahertz said:

I'm just trying to imagine what map 30 is going to be like lol

30 icons of sin.

[Grain of Salt]

On 7/18/2022 at 10:28 PM, ukiro said:

I can think of no other modern or highly regarded wad that is as orthogonal as Sunder. 

 

Scythe 2 is pretty orthogonal

[Jiggahertz]

Ok so I just completed The Hag's Finger and I can definitely say that was my favourite map so far. Just pure fun pretty much all the way through, and I also love how it was pretty much completely linear

[Solarn]

Just watched a video of a full playthrough of map 20, because I haven't been able to beat it yet, and this feels like a look back on everything that came before. The aesthetics for the most part are very new Sunder, with a stronger sense of "this is a specific place", but it's also the map with the most obvious Ribbiks influences, with the dark metal contrasted with colored lights, and the final arena could have come straight out of Sunlust. The gameplay of the main "city" portion reminds me a lot of old Sunder however, with the central building feeling like a redo of Hive Mother's central arena, now including the actual Hive Mother, and other parts being reminiscent of fights in The Cage, Precarious and the big open arenas filled to the brim with hordes of monsters, with the switches needed to open progression tucked away at the backs of monster closets in maps like Hollow Icon, The Furnace or the final room of Metal Descendants. All in all, very atmospheric and I can't wait to actually finish it, however long it will take.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Solarn