Sunder - Map20 Appears, finally.

[Jodwin]

Bloodite Krypto said:

How the heck is OpenGL more efficient than software? :S

By using the hardware acceleration of your graphics card.

[Insane_Gazebo]

Bloodite Krypto said:

Sunder is meant to be run using -complevel 9 (Boom v2.02) right?

Yep :)

Thanks for finding that problem - I'm sure I was aware of it a long time ago, but simply forgot to fix it. Turned out the ceiling was too low, and the exit sectors were a little too small.

Of course, now that I've gone and changed a few lines and sector heights, PrBoom-Plus is throwing me that bloody Signal 11 error at me again. Grr. (Seemed to work okay in PrBoom though.)

http://www.sendspace.com/file/g57chb

Is the current version. If anyone can figure out what's causing this Signal 11 error this time, I'd be grateful!

Also, if you're wondering where Map11 is, well, it's still being worked on. It's currently becomming the most complicated map I've ever made (at least, based on the line count) and it's still far from finished.

[Phml]

I tried loading all maps, then ran everywhere in map08 with idclip. No error for me in PrBoom+ (GL) 2.5.0.5.

[Insane_Gazebo]

Phml said:

I tried loading all maps, then ran everywhere in map08 with idclip. No error for me in PrBoom+ (GL) 2.5.0.5.

Looks like my version of PrBoom+ was out of date, though I'm not sure why that was causing issue. (It certainly had no issues with that map before.)

[Super Mighty G]

I'm not a very good player and I was never too keen on slaughter maps. Still I threw caution to the wind and sat down to play this mapset.

It started out pretty fun. I likes me some infighting. Sitting back and letting monsters tear into each other is what I live for. I got stalled on MAP02 at the Revenant horde. Revenant hordes are beastly. By the time I got the MAP03 it kind of slowed down. Not because of the monsters. No the fights were still pretty exhilarating. Everything else, not so much.

I noticed the flow was becoming predictable.

-Hit Switch/Enter Room
-Monsters appear
-Search for multiple switches to open escape route

It's not so black and white but that's the most frequent scenario I find myself in.

That aside, things were pretty good until MAP05. Frankly, I hate this level. Half of the time is spent quickloading not because a monster kills you but because you fall off one of the segmented platforms. In my opinion this is not a "hardcore gameplay" aspect. It's just annoying. Maybe if the abyss wasn't damaging and there were teleporters it'd be better.

Another thing is the Pain Elementals that spawn every so often. I found my self saying "Really? Are we really doing the Pain Elementals here of all places?"

The reason for my frustration should be apparent. I'm sure everyone is familiar with how floating monsters in Doom work. If they're hit by a strong blast they're pushed back. The problem is that they don't stop moving back until they hit a wall or blocking thing. So I hit a PE and it goes flying back into the sky, spitting Lost Souls the entire time. I can't do anything to stop it so I have to wait until it hits the edge of the level and comes back, and I have to hide behind a wall so it won't spawn more lost souls. This is not fun in the least. I finally put on godmode just so I could run out there and kill it.

Oh, and there was more falling off platforms. I had to stop at one point before I got too frustrated. So that's my take on the mapset so far. Everything up to MAP05 has been pretty peachy. I don't know whether I'm going to play through MAP05 or skip to MAP06 yet. And I probably don't need to mention that the architecture is very impressive in every map so far.

[Insane_Gazebo]

U.O.D. said:

Map05!

Yeah, Map05 isn't for everyone. Me, I've always enjoyed fighting on narrow ledges, and wanted to make a map centered around the idea, but I can imagine some people would just find it frustrating.

Hopefully you'll like some of the later maps a bit more. :)

As for the switch/room thing, there's a little less of it later, but for the most part, I've built my maps around challenges like that.

[Talvi]

Poor soul, the first five maps are the easiest ones, Map 6 is when the hardcore begins.

[Okuplok]

great wad!

here's some uv-max for ya! :)

map 01 - python - 4:17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUWI69ZIh-U

map 02 - the burrow - 10:23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05gBX--Bwjo

map 10 - the hags finger - 40:42
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl-N0vs8UkI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uihgEyqxVU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_0uZBIwyOs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4DsXeacjfQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiFf-bCWwbE

[Phml]

Any chance you could post the .lmp files, Okuplok ? Youtube is extremely slow for me (and, of course, the quality is much lower).

[Insane_Gazebo]

Okuplok said:

Youtube demo's.

Those were great fun to watch :)

I'm pretty staggered that you managed to get Map10 in one go, and in 40 minutes too. My runs would usually take me over an hour. (And I'd die a few times in the process.)

Thanks for pointing out those imps, too. I have a hunch someone mentioned it before, but I forgot about it. I've fixed that, and a few texture alignment issues I noticed while watching you.

I also noticed that someone else had uploaded some videos of maps 03 and 04, too:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Sindrom11

Also, here's another shot of Map11. (This map is killing me.)

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4093/sundermap112.jpg

[gggmork]

Looks like a reality run of hag's finger wouldn't be all that much harder, but okuplok is one of the best players.

[DeletedUser]

Insane_Gazebo said:
I also noticed that someone else had uploaded some videos of maps 03 and 04, too:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Sindrom11

That would be my account as a matter of fact, congratulations on discovering it, I was planning to release the .lmps soon enough. MAP03 was experimental due to numerous mistakes and awkward time, impressed by MAP04 although that'd be made obselete due to the removal of the Invul.

[Phml]

Also, here's another shot of Map11.

Not to be a negative nancy, but somehow I like this shot less - from a gameplay perspective. Seems a bit cramped in a way reminescent of Map09 somehow (which, despite my enthusiasm at first, is now the map I replay the least, along with Map05).

It could be the angle, though. Still very impressive visually, as always. :)

[Super Mighty G]

Talvi said:

Poor soul, the first five maps are the easiest ones, Map 6 is when the hardcore begins.

You're not kidding. I managed to squeak by MAP06. After that forget about it.

Just for fun I nuked all the monsters in the last levels so I could stroll through and admire the architecture. Although doing this made the switch hunt aspect of the maps very apparent. But I can say that they're the hardest, hugest, most detailed switch hunts ever.

[Solarn]

U.O.D. said:

You're not kidding. I managed to squeak by MAP06. After that forget about it.

Just for fun I nuked all the monsters in the last levels so I could stroll through and admire the architecture. Although doing this made the switch hunt aspect of the maps very apparent. But I can say that they're the hardest, hugest, most detailed switch hunts ever.

MAP06 is awesome. It's the only map besides the first two that I could ever beat, back when it occupied the MAP03 slot.

You know, I noticed a funny thing about the maps. Each one has a definite theme that makes it immediately recognizable (green brick and metal for MAP01, red cavern for MAP02, weird surreal garden of concrete and metal for MAP03 and so on) and one or two or maybe three main textures that define that theme, but when you look at the actual textures used, except for MAP01, there are quite a lot. It's just that the way the levels are built makes one or two stick in your mind and the rest just provide detail, even if they are used more.

[Solarn]

Also, I'm now on MAP04 (Metal Descendants), having completed the previous three, and I noticed that it's easy to leave the Cyberdemon that teleports in at the blue key alive before entering the blue door, preventing 100% kills. It's not all that hard to kill the Cybie either, but people who are on their first playthrough or just rushing through on a speedrun and forgetting to think might try to make it fight the horde behind the blue door, unaware that the door closes behind them without a way back. You might want to do something about that.

[Insane_Gazebo]

Solarn said:

Also, I'm now on MAP04 (Metal Descendants), having completed the previous three, and I noticed that it's easy to leave the Cyberdemon that teleports in at the blue key alive before entering the blue door, preventing 100% kills. It's not all that hard to kill the Cybie either, but people who are on their first playthrough or just rushing through on a speedrun and forgetting to think might try to make it fight the horde behind the blue door, unaware that the door closes behind them without a way back. You might want to do something about that.

This is already fixed - the switch which opens the exit, also opens the door to the final room.

[Solarn]

Insane_Gazebo said:

This is already fixed - the switch which opens the exit, also opens the door to the final room.

Good to know. I never noticed it, because I killed the Cybie the next time I loaded that state and just went for the exit when it was finally open.

I'm on MAP05 now and the Pain Elementals annoy the hell out of me, particularly the ones that spawn after clearing the platform with the Cybie, the Mancubus and the Vile. They spawn too far away to shoot and already spit out a ton of Lost Souls before they get into range.

Anyway, completed MAP05 now. I found no bugs, except that two of the three Cyberdemons at the end somehow managed to fall into the lava where they were unreachable. I still got over 100% monsters thanks to the Archviles, but I don't count that as a true max run.

I also completed MAP06, which is every bit as fun as I remember it being and the exploity AV jumps are fixed now. I still have no idea how to kill the monsters that teleport in on the ledge above the imp room, so I didn't manage a max run on this one either.

[darkdave1985]

something is wrong with that wad. every time when i play it, after a while the colours turn crazy. and it´s not my pc, because this is the only wad where it always happens. i play a lot of other wads too, but this one is the only wad where it always happens. after some minutes, the whole graphic goes crazy and looks terrible. what´s the reason for that?

[Patrick]

What port are you using? and can you post images of it?

[Solarn]

darkdave1985 said:

something is wrong with that wad. every time when i play it, after a while the colours turn crazy. and it´s not my pc, because this is the only wad where it always happens. i play a lot of other wads too, but this one is the only wad where it always happens. after some minutes, the whole graphic goes crazy and looks terrible. what´s the reason for that?

What source port are you playing it in? It works perfectly on my PC in Zdoom, GZDoom, PrBoom+ and GlBoom+, its intended ports.

[Insane_Gazebo]

darkdave1985 said:

something is wrong with that wad. every time when i play it, after a while the colours turn crazy. and it´s not my pc, because this is the only wad where it always happens. i play a lot of other wads too, but this one is the only wad where it always happens. after some minutes, the whole graphic goes crazy and looks terrible. what´s the reason for that?

That's very strange. I haven't done anything fancy to the textures other than import a few custom ones.

Are you sure while playing my particular wad your video card wasn't starting to die? I can't think of any other explanation.

[darkdave1985]

i play it in zdoom. i always play in zdoom. i don't think that it's my videocard, then like i said everything else works for me. i try to make screenshots when it is like that and then i post them here.

djd

[Phml]

-complevel 9

Bringing this up a little late, but the wad being limit removing, shouldn't it use -complevel 2 ? I've seen Erik Alm recommend that for Scythe X (which is also limit removing IIRC).

Edit : and just after I post that, I'm thinking lost souls would be limited to 21 with -complevel 2. Is that why you recommend -complevel 9 as the correct complevel to play with ?

On another note, I'm getting a weird graphic glitch in map03 with GlBoom+ 2.5.0.6.

Looks fine in PrBoom+, ZDoom and GZDoom.

[DeletedUser]

Let's discuss inspiration Gazebo! I heard you were a great admirer of 'Death Destinys' deliberately unfair based slaughter maps, cruel in the sense that Archviles and Cybers can pop up in the blink of an eye providing the player with only a split second to react. While I admired this unique implemention in No Chance creating a more chaotic difficulty curve and forcing a more strategic approach to the gameplay I'm truly glad you didn't replicate such a devious style in Sunder's maps as for the most part it requires trial and error through memorizing spawns, anticipating them after frequent deaths and experimenting with tactics. The contrast in yours being the player can observe enemy spawns before being overwhelmed and can act accordingly to devise a hasty strategy to slaughter the masses, with the exception of MAP09 - The Cage, those 2 Cyber spawns after crossing a small gap was hilariously unexpected.

The Dreaming Garden took inspiration from the beginning of Grime when a group of Commandoes, HK's and Revs emerge from the Crimson wall correct? ;) Do the majority of the maps take inspiration from any particular source and did you merely apply the concept of a battle to your own maps and paint it with your own memorable style of architecture? Eg: The simplistic nature of the mass hordes on 'Hollow Icon' could have been conjured by any simpleton, yet you were able to create a fresh experience without repetition by progressively increasing the difficulty scale from small groups which surround the player to full scale warfare for the grand finale!

If your creativity and willpower were to continually be sustained, could you see Sunder evolve into 32 monstrous levels of self mutilation? That would certainly be a first for the longest completion time for a WAD in existence, especially if you intend the monster count to rise above MAP10!

I've been scanning the visuals of several maps throughout my mind like a slideshow and am constantly lurching towards the conclusion that 'Sunder' would not provide an optimal experience for Coop. The majority of areas are far too small and would only represent a burden with the presense of multiple players.

Eg: The HK Gladiator arena on MAP02, the Baron/Cyber swarm on MAP03, MAP05 without a doubt due to the narrow width of each pillar coupled with the anguish of releasing a trap only to die and be sniped from a distance preventing progression.

It seems the participating players would require a thorough knowledge of the maps beforehand, although a private server would be much preferred in the first place, the sheer amount of enemies would cause instaneous lag unless you had a beast of an upload speed. Well with Skulltag's repugnant netcode atleast, tests have shown MAP's 04/07/08/09/10 can only hold the host and no one else :/

[Solarn]

Okay, just played through MAP07, VERY atmospheric. It looks and plays like a hybrid between MAP06 (wood/blood/metal theme, monsters on ledges, enemies come out of closets rather than teleport in) and MAP08 (large surfaces with the same texture, simpler but more colossal architecture, textures are meant to evoke colours rather than shapes, large open areas with hordes of monsters, room-to-room fighting). The last two rooms were hellishly difficult, but in the end I managed to get through them. In fact, the very last room was a bit easier than the one before it, because the imps and demons were much easier to cut through than the barons, mancubuses and cacodemons, so they had less of a chance to swarm me.

It was fun all the way, though, and now I'm on MAP08 and I actually managed to survive the first area.

[Insane_Gazebo]

Bloodite Krypto said:

Lots of feedback and so on.

To answer your questions:

Nope, Dreaming Garden's layout wasn't inspired by anything in particular. I only had a colour theme in mind when I began, the layout was purely guesswork for the most part.

As for the others, well, for the most part my main source of inspiration is a simple theme or just an idea I've had, usually without any direct source, with the exception of a few parts:

The buildings in Map02 are my attempts to mimick some of Sycthe2's architecture. Map08 was a progression of my original attempt at such a map, inspired by Map06 of an old wad called Beyond.wad.

For the most part, though, I'll slap down some corridors and rooms at random, then bit by bit make them work, with varying degrees of success in regards to the layout. In terms of texturing/theme, I'll usually spend a while detailing the first room to see if my idea for a theme works or not.

And yeah, the best maps in my mind, are the ones you can't complete on your first go - ones that require a bit of thought in regards to the fights ahead. I loved eaxt.wad and nochance.wad for that reason. Expect some of my later maps to eventually become this difficult.

And on later maps, yes, I'm making more. Map11 has been worked on for uh, over a month now I think? Sadly I've hit the line limit in DB2, so I'm either going to have to wait for a fix or figure out what detail I can safely remove.

Sad to hear about the multiplayer, but I'm not totally surprised. Hopefully some of my later maps will be laid out better in this regard.

Solarn said:

It was fun all the way, though, and now I'm on MAP08 and I actually managed to survive the first area.

The start to Map08 is a lot easier than it used to be - I think I removed well over half the monsters that used to clog up that area.

[Kagemaru_H]

Insane_Gazebo said:

Heh, guess I wasn't very clear.

These are my old maps, and they're also unfinished. I just thought people might want to have a look at what I did before I forget about them forever.

But I think the biggest mistake I used to make, wasn't in creating insanely detailed sections, but rather, not sector packing them.

I don't really care how many sectors a map has as long as it's fun and consistent. So I don't want to be fighting 2 Cyberdemons in just a square room with missing/mismatched textures and no health or ammo.

[Insane_Gazebo]

Kagemaru_H said:

I don't really care how many sectors a map has as long as it's fun and consistent. So I don't want to be fighting 2 Cyberdemons in just a square room with missing/mismatched textures and no health or ammo.

I completely agree. I like a good hard slaughter map. I like them even more when they're pretty.

Not sure what on earth I was going on about merging sectors, though, as all that does is speed up the editing process. Might have just discovered merging and got excited I guess. 0_o

[DeletedUser]

Thank you very much for the feedback, interesting thoughts to hear. Regarding future levels my decision to inquire was not due to impatience but curiosity, in fact I assume one map would take you several months (for MAP09 or 10) atleast. The colossal scale and memorable look of the architecture is still unbelieveable when replaying, struggling to believe this actually exists, a fantastic fusion of Eternal Doom's gargantuac, immersive architecture and well this deserves it's own branch of Warfare style rather than HR! If Sunder doesn't receive a Golden Cacoaward I'll be gobsmacked, both architecture and gameplay is fresh.

I replayed through MAP03 yesterday and absolutely nailed it taking very minimal damage. For the Revenant/Baron battle I stuck by the 'Combat Armor' dodging rockets than retreating near the Plasma when the swarm began to surround me, then it was a simple case of continuing the salvo of rockets using cover when necessary. The Cyber/Baron army worked in my favour as luckily enough the Cyber fired on first sight, then I sprinted back to the corner where the teleporter resides and cleared the platform of Barons. Infighting ensued until the Cyber was demolished and the rest were cleared with ease as they clustered together preventing any odd backstabbers. Somehow I knew exactly where to stand within the final building, for the first spawn I stuck to the corner adjacent from the Invulnerability slamming the spawn in front of me with rockets, then luring the others towards my current position. Then circle strafing towards the other side of the room as now the swarm is clustered with little chance of trapping me.

This time I didn't need the Megasphere or Soulsphere outside. Now if only I was recording at the time..

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l244/StarScream_01/TheDreamingGarden000.jpg

I'd probably ask the programmers myself but does 09 and 10 run poorly on GZDoom due to the amount of torches coupled with the possible fact that it's simply an inefficient renderer when compared to GLBoom+? Which causes no framerate drop at all.

EDIT: Attempted a UV Max of MAP08 "Pale Monument" perished in the final room, what a shame.

http://www.zshare.net/download/70818544e8533eac/