If Doom 2 were a PWAD, how would you review it?

[188DarkRevived]

Captain Ventris said:

???

What I meant is that the E1M1 of Wolfenstein 3-D was filled with more enemies and more items than the E1M1 of DOOM or the Map01 of DOOM II.
The level designer had spent more time and effort into his work instead of rushing in a reckless manner. Thus the playing experience was longer and felt more enjoyable. That was all I meant to say.

[esselfortium]

GBT3, if you want to get that technical, the Casalis created Plutonia independently and the "rest" of Team TNT created Evilution, with a small number of maps created or assisted by them. Call it what you want, but Plutonia is really just theirs.

Also, DarkJedi, the entire point of Doom's e1m1 and map01 were to be short, simple introductions to the game's universe (and, of course, the power of the tech that backed it). Map01 could have been somewhat better, my complaints have nothing to do with its monster and item usage. A good first map is short and simple, and e1m1 manages to introduce many of the major new elements of the Doom engine in an impressively connected layout (particularly with the courtyard connecting all three main areas, making nearly the entire map visible from the start point), in a level that can be beaten in under 30 seconds. I would consider that to be a hell of a lot more impressive than any Wolfenstein maze.

[188DarkRevived]

esselfortium said:

A good first map is short and simple, and e1m1 manages to introduce many of the major new elements of the Doom engine in an impressively connected layout (particularly with the courtyard connecting all three main areas, making nearly the entire map visible from the start point), in a level that can be beaten in under 30 seconds. I would consider that to be a hell of a lot more impressive than any Wolfenstein maze.

Well, perhaps that courtyard of DOOM's E1M1 could've contained some sectors inside of it to resemble a landed spacecraft of some kind? I mean, why the heck would they call the level a "Hangar" if there's no runways and no landed spacecrafts?

I've seen some fan-made vanilla WADs where people actually tried to construct parked vehicles in their maps.

As for Wolfenstein 3-D, a dungeon doesn't need to have any windows or courtyards. Therefore the E1M1 over there felt like a real dungeon without any unneeded extras. :p

[esselfortium]

Cool, and maybe that computer station in e1m7 could have not included nukage rivers and trap lowering platforms and monster closets! Doom's level designs have almost always emphasized gameplay over attempts at realism. The early designs for Doom, especially Tom Hall's, attempted realism and the results were largely found to be boring. The abstract designs in the resulting game, Romero's especially, eschewed virtually everything else for the sake of gameplay and layout. Why is there a dark room in that window with a soulsphere, and what's it for? I don't know, but I want to figure out how to get in there!

I would imagine that the engine's limited rendering capabilities also had a major influence on the designers' decisions. Doom 0.99 had a dramatically lower drawsegs limit than the 1.9 final release that vanilla mappers work with nowadays, to the point where the arena in e1m8 would HOM if you stood too far outside of it. There honestly wasn't the ability to put a spaceship there, even if they wanted to, and if they had tried it wouldn't have looked any good.

Also, a dungeon with no windows or courtyards is a shitty excuse for a map.

[kristus]

DarkJedi188 said:

What I meant is that the E1M1 of Wolfenstein 3-D was filled with more enemies and more items than the E1M1 of DOOM or the Map01 of DOOM II.
The level designer had spent more time and effort into his work instead of rushing in a reckless manner. Thus the playing experience was longer and felt more enjoyable. That was all I meant to say.

Longer than 15 years of deathmatching? Map01 is heralded as one of the best DM maps around.

EDIT: and everything Essel said.

[DuckReconMajor]

essel said:

first map stuff

I agree. Especially after watching that id in '93 video Romero got a hold of, I don't think anything in E1 was done without reason.

[myk]

GBT3 said:
Really, learn to read.

Practice what you preach. To read well you have to take contexts into consideration.

And they are considered as TeamTNT because they did Plutonia while being members of TeamTNT until it have been finished.

That's pretty much like saying that if I were a programmer working for IBM and, with a coworker, we made some program separately in our spare time and sold it to some company, our program would be an "IBM production." Plutonia is credited solely to the Casali brothers (no mention is made of TeamTNT in the WAD, unlike in Evilution) because it's theirs; they made a direct deal with id and only they were paid for it.

The brothers were TeamTNT members, and participated in making Evilution, but Plutonia is not a TeamTNT production. It's a Casali brothers creation.

Evilution is suspense'n'hardness 'techbase' wad based more on action and gameplay; while Plutonia is based on tactic, strategy, difficulty and 'hellish' theme.

Plutonia is based more on action and game play than TNT, and ironically you're more or less saying it yourself. Due to being produced by greater number of less intimately associated people, TNT is, if anything, more eclectic or varied. Some levels have smooth playability (with a varying style in how the levels play), some less so while trying to be more realistic, and some try to create distinctive scenarios.

[Gez]

It's the first time on Doomworld I see Doom accused of sacrificing action gameplay to boring eye candy. Fancy it would be a Wolfenstein fan that would say that.


Sorry, but I can't agree. There's nothing memorable about Wolf levels, they're just samey-same mazes with cartoony textures and enemies. The textures and enemies are memorable, the levels aren't.

In Doom, the level itself is a character. The areas don't look realistic, and neither did Wolf3D's, but they look unique contrarily to Wolf's.

[Graf Zahl]

Gez said:

Sorry, but I can't agree. There's nothing memorable about Wolf levels, they're just samey-same mazes with cartoony textures and enemies. The textures and enemies are memorable, the levels aren't.

Most aren't even playable without an automap.

Wait - Wolfenstein didn't even have an automap...

Guess what my opinion about that game is! ;)

[40oz]

Hey wolfenstein doesn't suck. That's a great game and all this talk about it makes me wanna go play it. But I couldn't agree more that there's nothing memorable about it's maps. I can remember ever individual room in Knee Deep In The Dead from the start of E1M1 to the end of E1M8, in the order of which they must be accessed to complete the entire episode.

I can't remember past E1M1 of Wolfenstein. Even then I still think there are some rooms in E1M1 that I'm overlooking.

[188DarkRevived]

Graf Zahl said:

Wait - Wolfenstein didn't even have an automap...

Well, think about it... How can the character possibly have a map of his current location if he's captured on enemy territory?
Even if Blazkowicz had a map to begin with, the SS would've confiscated it from him when they locked him inside their dungeon. :p

But when you're a spacemarine who is sent on a mission to a Mars colony then it's a totally different story... The map is part of your mission debriefing.
And you don't start out by being captured in foreign enemy territory. You start out in home territory which became invaded by menacing outsiders.
Therefore, it's the Imps and the Demons who don't have the map. But you do.

It's logical and it all makes sense.

To be sincere, I'm an equally loyal fan of both DOOM and Wolfenstein. I still play mods and add-ons for them both.
The fact that they're this different from each other only makes them more attractive to me.

And Kristus, not everyone is a diehard deathmatch enthusiast. Some are more into singleplayer.

And I wish that Carmack had actually listened to Tom Hall instead of kicking him out of the team.
The game is very good but it still could've been so much more than what it has eventually become.

[DuckReconMajor]

DarkJedi188 said:

automap argument

So every space marine has a map of Hell sitting in his pocket?

[188DarkRevived]

DuckReconMajor said:

So every space marine has a map of Hell sitting in his pocket?

You see, that's exactly what disappoints me. The Hell levels shouldn't have any automaps.
If only Tom Hall didn't get kicked out of the team then it probably would've been only the tech base levels which have automaps.
But stupid Carmack kicked him out.
That's the problem.
There's where it all went wrong.

[esselfortium]

Let me say this about that.

Furthermore, unless you iddt or pick up a computer map, nothing shows up on the automap that you haven't already seen ingame anyway.

Also this is a terrible argument and you should feel ashamed.

[SaladBadger]

...Sometimes, DarkJedi, I think you fail to realize that doom went for FUN over REALISM. And don't forget, your automap only shows what you've seen, so provided these levels don't have computer maps it would still be realistic, unless hell walls are magic and asorb radar waves or such a detection mechanism.

[zap610]

DarkJedi188 said:

But stupid Carmack kicked him out.
That's the problem.
There's where it all went wrong.

At least Carmack doesn't make dumb posts.

[188DarkRevived]

Well, we're all entitled to our own opinions, regardless of how much they might clash.
I know someone from another forum who shares my point-of-view on the Tom Hall matter.

And don't forget, your automap only shows what you've seen

Shit, I almost forgot about that.
But I barely ever used that thing anyways. It felt much more satisfying to explore without relying on the TAB button, even though I knew that it's there.

[Tango]

I would just like to say that obviously less items & monsters = less effort

therefore NUTS is exponentially better than Plutonia

[esselfortium]

Rofl. Also speaking of points of view, mine at the moment is that all of us, including you, are posting here and playing the game 15 years later so evidently it couldn't have gone too terribly wrong.

[SaladBadger]

I'm not sure if I would want tom hall determining everything about the game. He went for realism, and he mapped realisticly. John Romero mapped fun weird maps, and some of Sandy's levels also have great gameplay (but not great visuals).

Not having an automap in hell would suck. I use the automap a lot to determine where I haven't been. It would be really frustrating without it.

[188DarkRevived]

esselfortium said:

Also speaking of points of view, mine at the moment is that all of us, including you, are posting here and playing the game 15 years later so evidently it couldn't have gone too terribly wrong.

Obviously if I was 100% unsatisfied with their work then I wouldn't be here right now. But I was actually satisfied by around 85% of their work. That's why I'm here.
I was only pointing out that it could've been somewhat better than it eventually became.

[DuckReconMajor]

DarkJedi188 said:

Obviously if I was 100% unsatisfied with their work then I wouldn't be here right now. But I was actually satisfied by around 85% of their work. That's why I'm here.
I was only pointing out that it could've been somewhat better than it eventually became.

Better for you maybe.

To me a cool looking environment > a real one.

[zap610]

Why wouldn't hell have an auto map? Doomguy brings his pistol and armor to hell, seems only fitting he brings other basic gear with him. Saying that isn't logical is just backwords.

[188DarkRevived]

DuckReconMajor said:

To me a cool looking environment > a real one.

I'm getting the impression that Duke Nukem 3D wasn't your cup of tea. It balanced "cool looking environment" with "real environment".
But the difference of thought doesn't bother me at all.
If we were all the same and all thought the same way then the world would be too damn boring to live in.

[DuckReconMajor]

DarkJedi188 said:

If we were all the same and all thought the same way then the world would be too damn boring to live in.

*points quote back at you*

[188DarkRevived]

zap610 said:

Why wouldn't hell have an auto map? Doomguy brings his pistol and armor to hell, seems only fitting he brings other basic gear with him. Saying that isn't logical is just backwords.

On closer inspection, Hell doesn't have any computer terminals and/or radar dishes around its caverns.
If Doomguy brings his PDA into Hell then it cannot recieve any signals from anywhere.

[zap610]

Signals? It just picks up the enviroment as doomguy sees it. That's literally how the map forms.

[Reevys]

I always just thought of the automap as being the Doomguy's memory, so when you checked it you could only see what he remembered. A computer map then contained the layout of the level already, so the Doomguy simply picked up, looked at it, then committed it to memory. Makes the most sense to me.

Also, one of the worst things about Wolf3D is it's lack of an automap. Fair enough, DarkJedi, you did make a good point about why he doesn't have one, but it's another one of those things where realism spoiled the overall fun in the game. I know I'd certainly enjoy it much more if I could check up on where I am in a relatively featureless maze every so often. :P

[DuckReconMajor]

Reevys said:

but it's another one of those things where realism spoiled the overall fun in the game.

Well, I doubt that was actually why the automap was absent.

[Csonicgo]

THERE WAS AN AUTOMAP IN WOLFENSTEIN 3D. It was removed in 1.1 because a) it was buggy and b) it made the game too easy. HAhaha!