If Doom 2 were a PWAD, how would you review it?

[Kyka]

DuckReconMajor said:

*standing ovation*

This.

To some of the posts here I would say something like "Oh yeah. Well if Doom2 has so many faults, then why don't you do better?", but to be frank, there are people here who can (and have) done better. But that said, Doom 2 is the original, and it provided the foundation by which so many people here have built on. Yeah it felt like a random assortment of maps, and some of the monsters could have fitted the Doom theme a little better, but the fact is, it still carried on the groundbreaking standard set by the original.

[DuckReconMajor]

Kyka said:

This.

Um,

I was being quite serious.

I don't like Doom 2 very much at all. I don't know why, I just find it very dull. I agreed with almost every point Gez made. I especially dread those city levels. Playing MAP15 makes me wonder if they even cared any more at that point. I feel bad saying that, as I'm sure they worked hard on those maps, but it just doesn't look like they took Doom 2 as seriously as they did the first.

Also,

esselfortium said:
Most of it could have been better, but it beats Doom's e2 and e3 with a big stick.

At least E2 and E3 (well, most of it) had atmosphere. Go ahead and wave your "gameplay over graphics" finger at me, but it's still a very important part of making a game exciting.

Sorry Gez if I sounded sarcastic.

[Gez]

DuckReconMajor said:

Sorry Gez if I sounded sarcastic.

Nah you didn't.

Actually Kyka's post made me think I was being a huge egotist for assuming the standing ovation was in response to my post, rather than your own review of Doom 2 as I assume that Kyka assumed. Lots of assumption to go around. :P

[Super Jamie]

DuckReconMajor said:

Playing MAP15 makes me wonder if they even cared any more at that point. I feel bad saying that, as I'm sure they worked hard on those maps, but it just doesn't look like they took Doom 2 as seriously as they did the first.

This is more or less the story presented in the Masters of Doom book. Prior to Christmas '93, id Software was still quite small, there were minimal distractions and the Keens and Wolfenstein were games made for gamers by gamers, with intense concentration and 100% effort applied.

Then they hit the big time with Doom, Romero got a bit drunk on success and concentrated more on PR and deathmatch tournaments than making games, and Carmack was busy with the Quake engine and there were other people/management dramas going on too.

This is why I believe Doom 2 is not as strong and cohesive as the first one, and why Quake is just a mishmash Lovecraftian techno-gothic brown clusterfuck.

[ReFracture]

A lot of the levels IMO were boring compared to E2 and E4 of Doom 1, but the new gun and enemies were fantastic. They're the reason I prefer Doom II Pwads over anything else.

If Doom II was a Pwad released in early 1994 as an add-on for Doom1, it would be legendary.

You can't properly review it in this sense because it's 15 years later and you've played countless other Pwads (Some arguably better than Doom II)

[myk]

DuckReconMajor said:
Sorry Gez if I sounded sarcastic.

I was almost sure Gez was being sarcastic in overemphasizing and nitpicking so many secondary things. It's like taking any work of art renown for something and criticizing it for what it isn't.

Not surprisingly, the people that like DOOM II less tend to look at DOOM more as some sort of modding and tech development hobby than a game to play and play again. Mix in some nostalgia and see what you get.

Super Jamie said:
Then they hit the big time with Doom, Romero got a bit drunk on success and concentrated more on PR and deathmatch tournaments than making games, and Carmack was busy with the Quake engine and there were other people/management dramas going on too.

Dramas were going on during DOOM's development as well, clearly enough. If any diversions affected Romero (though I think his promotion of deathmatching by participating was more of a pro than a con and showed he was a dedicated player and not just a "game designer"), they just reduced the amount of maps he delivered, which wasn't much of a problem as they now had American as well. He had the tendency to not make too many maps and make sure they were all pretty neat and touched-up, which shows in his DOOM II levels. He also showed greater variety in DOOM II than in DOOM. I love Knee Deep in the Dead, but it's almost like one or two levels divided into nine parts. Level 15, for example, does a great job at using open spaces combined with fortified zones the player must navigate over.

You mention E4M2, which is more or less a mini-map29, and a very good level, but not as intense as Romero's first "rough ledges over damaging floor" masterpiece.

[Super Jamie]

myk said:

(though I think his promotion of deathmatching by participating was more of a pro than a con and showed he was a dedicated player and not just a "game designer")

Most definitely. A large portion of Doom's success (especially in the years immediately after release) and ongoing popularity was due to this. I'm thankful for it, as it solidified Doom's place. But under critical analysis, mapping suffered for it. I don't mind though, Sandy and American more than make up for it.

myk said:

You mention E4M2, which is more or less a mini-map29, and a very good level, but not as intense as Romero's first "rough ledges over damaging floor" masterpiece.

I hate MAP29. About the only thing "cheesy" about E4M2 is the Cyberdemon, though telefragging it was an unexpected and fairly new idea at the time so the concept holds water. The rest of the level is difficult but not un-fun, and full of surprises for such a compact space.

MAP29 has stupid use of Revenants, not only the two snipers in cages but that friggin impossible one over near the Barons in the later part of the level - I've bitched about it before - and then as a "finale" you can just walk past the Cyberdemon at the end.

What an anti-climax.

[SaladBadger]

You know, you could always go ahead and kill the cyberdemon if you really want to. Just because the exit is right there doesn't mean you have to use it the instant you can. Besides, all that ammo you waste will basically be restocked on the next level anyways, so just go ahead and kill it!

Although it is kind of stupid, there's nothing stopping you from killing the cyberdemon. Mabye you want to challenge yourself. Mabye you want to get that 100% kills. whatever the reason is you can still kill it like any other cyberdemon.

And if you choose to run, just hope it doesn't get you from behind ;)

[Gez]

myk said:

I was almost sure Gez was being sarcastic in overemphasizing and nitpicking so many secondary things. It's like taking any work of art renown for something and criticizing it for what it isn't.

This was definitely an exercise in making mountains out of molehills.

[Abyssalstudios1]

Super Jamie said:

Then they hit the big time with Doom, Romero got a bit drunk on success and concentrated more on PR and deathmatch tournaments than making games, and Carmack was busy with the Quake engine and there were other people/management dramas going on too.

That sounds rather similar to the story with Spear of Destiny. While the others were making more of the same, Carmack was busy elsewhere. Fortunately, Doom II was better for Ultimate Doom than SoD was for Wolfenstein. Conversely, as you said, Romero wasn't adding his special touch to things as often as he should/could have, and the game still feels a bit... unfinished, to me. Awesome to play (except The Chasm), but it kinda feels like it's in beta mode.

But the music is an interesting departure from previous tracks. I may get into more on that later. In fact, I feel a full on, level-by-level review coming on. That'll probably come the day after this thread dies.

[Kyka]

DuckReconMajor said:

Um,

I was being quite serious.

I understood what you meant. Sorry, it wasn't meant to sound like I was making fun of you though.

[DuckReconMajor]

Kyka said:

I understood what you meant. Sorry, it wasn't meant to sound like I was making fun of you though.

Nah, you're fine. I'm still a bit confused at the point you were trying to make, but no, I didn't feel offended.

[Kyka]

I know that I did not explain what I meant very well, and probably won't do much better here. My point was simply that any follow up to Doom was gonna fall short in some (perhaps many) ways, but Doom2 was still a worthy sequel. After Doom, how could anything be 'right'? The first of anything is always the hardest. Doom was no exception. After that, everyone (even the guys at id) had something to follow, so Doom2 was just that. A follow up. After Doom, the hardest work was done, and the guys at id probably felt that, even though they probably wouldn't have admitted it...

[kristus]

I think most parts of Doom2 is great.
Love the new enemies, the maps are fun to play. As well as it having a lot of in general really cool maps.
I think that the majority of the Doom2 maps are still better than 90% of all the maps being made by the community today.

[40oz]

kristus said:

I think most parts of Doom2 is great.
Love the new enemies, the maps are fun to play. As well as it having a lot of in general really cool maps.
I think that the majority of the Doom2 maps are still better than 90% of all the maps being made by the community today.

I wouldn't say 90%. I remember playing Doom 2 for the first time. Of course I played Doom 2 before I played any PWADs, but MAP01 featured one of the first times I've seen a monster from behind without it seeing me first. Getting it from behind with the chainsaw sneak attack was pretty cool.

It's kinda hard to review a wad like Doom 2 because of all the differing parameters. Does it get credit for being vanilla compatible? (obviously) Does it get points for being by id software? If John Romero were to come here and whip up some shitty 1 map PWADs, I'm sure everyone would play them. Doom 2 definitely has quite a bit of new stuff compared to Doom 1. Fresh new textures, a new lovable weapon that doesn't throw off the weapon balance, new monsters that are much more difficult, (and Harder monsters is a must if you were a die-hard doomer at the time) Giant levels with wide open spaces to explore.

If you review it to today's standards, it's a less than impressive wad. But for the time it must have been pretty damn good.

[Gez]

JohnnyRancid said:

I wouldn't say 90%.

Why not? 90% of everything is crap. Doom 2 has flaws but it is better than crap.

Also: vanilla compatible? No. It came with its own modified exe. :P

[Nomad]

I always thought Doom 2 was kind of boring Even back in '94. There were a few memorable maps, but for the most part I've always felt that it was bland and nowhere near as fun as Doom 1.

Pain Elementals are retarded, and I hate Arch Viles because I've Been Playing Games Forever But I Still Suck. Revenants and Mancs are annoying in groups, but they're OK otherwise I guess. I do like chainguys, even though they seem to have been implemented specifically to make sure you never have too much health.

My biggest issue, though, is probably that I have short attention span and I just can't force myself through an entire megawad that easily, especially when some levels are stupid mazes with switch hunts and hidden keys. I preferred Doom1's episodic structure, although some of those levels were pretty huge and boring too (especially fourth episode. Frankly hated that more than Doom 2).

Also, I don't think the year Doom 2 was made is a good excuse. TeamTNT shat out Plutonia in, like, one night and I thought it was better than Doom 2. Granted that was two years later, but whatever.

At the least, the SSG is a staple of the Doom experience, though. Wouldn't be the same without it.

[vdgg]

I didn't like it at all back then and I never took Doom II seriously, until I discovered Final Doom and some great "Classic" PWADs a few years ago.

One thing for sure (from today's perspective, though): IT IS THE MOST INFLUENTIAL WAD EVER.

The most inspiring maps were probably:
- Entryway (with good results, like TNT MAP01, Requiem MAP01)
- Dead Simple (that Mancubus/Arachnotron theme is annoying, there have been only five MAP07 levels which I like: from Eternal Doom, Hell Revealed II, Community Chest 2 and two more - which don't use those stupid sector tags: MM2 MAP07, Darkening II MAP07).
- Circle of Death
- The Inmost Dens
- The Living End
- Icon of Sin (its huge influence on the mappers has been even more detrimental than was the case of MAP07. All bossbrain maps suck).

The new monsters were OK (with the exception of the Hell Knights; if they decided to put them into the maps, why they kept the Barons?)

Doom II was very well-balanced in terms of difficulty levels.

I liked the idea of putting joke levels as secret levels (1. I was a Wolfenstein fan, 2. I discovered the secret MAP31 all by myself and was very proud of it. Knowing the WOLF3D secrets I had no problems with discovering MAP32, too).

Maps summary for doom2.wad
==========================
A typical map: MAP04 for American (typical texture use), MAP17 for Romero, MAP18 for Sandy (almost 200 monsters and it can be finished in 30 seconds).
Most memorable map: for me it was MAP15
Best map: MAP10 and MAP29
Worst map: MAP30, with MAP24 as a runner-up.

[Graf Zahl]

Kyka said:

But that said, Doom 2 is the original

No, it's not. Even taken objectively, Doom 2 is merely a rehash of Doom 1. A sequel is by default not the original.

[Reevys]

I like Doom II. Not as good as Ultimate Doom, no (especially episode 4), but still fun. I'd rather only play the first 20 levels of it again though, as Bloodfalls and The Abandoned Mines are the only maps from the last third of the game that I actually enjoy to any extent.

[188DarkRevived]

The Arachnotron is my favourite monster from the entire DOOM series. I love the sounds that it makes as it walks. And I can never get enough of watching those green plasma bolts tracking me from side to side across a great distance. It always amuses me. :)

The double-barrel shotgun is the most pleasant weapon for me to use. I feel so satisfied when I manage to knock out 4 Imps at the same time with one blast.

And some of the background music was very emotionally moving for me.

The only thing that I hated was some of the levels. In particular, I hated these ones:

* Entryway (You can beat this level in under 5 minutes without shooting a single monster. WTF? Totally effortless rush job.)

* Downtown (It looked more like a prison island similar to Alcatraz rather than like an urban area.)

* Refueling Base (It was just a bunch of gloomy hallways with toxic slime. There was nothing to resemble any vehicles or any spaceships. What was being refueled over there?)

* Suburbs (Again, it didn't look like a residential city area.)

Perhaps if the game was released in 1996/1997 instead of 1994 then the city levels would've looked just as realistic as the ones which we saw in Duke Nukem 3D.

But nonetheless, we should all respect this WAD, because without it there wouldn't have been any Final DOOM, there wouldn't have been any Memento Mori, there wouldn't have been any Alien Vendetta, and there wouldn't have been any Batman DOOM.

[printz]

DarkJedi188 said:

* Refueling Base (It was just a bunch of gloomy hallways with toxic slime. There was nothing to resemble any vehicles or any spaceships. What was being refueled over there?)

I think the outside area in the center is the place where planes land to refuel, especially from the four tanks that now contain monsters and items.

[esselfortium]

DarkJedi188 said:

* Entryway (You can beat this level in under 5 minutes without shooting a single monster. WTF? Totally effortless rush job.)

...just like e1m1???

[188DarkRevived]

esselfortium said:

...just like e1m1???

Yeah, I guess so. That was somewhat disappointing. They really started to slack off a bit when they moved from designing Wolfenstein to designing DOOM.
I mean, even the very first level of Wolfenstein 3-D contained more action and was designed with more effort, despite being built on a primitive engine with more limitations.

[Captain Ventris]

DarkJedi188 said:

level of Wolfenstein 3-D

DarkJedi188 said:

effort

???

[arrrgh]

The original Doom was more fun by itself(except for E3M8 which is a joke) and the intermission map made it feel like an actual game instead of a bunch of levels thrown together. There were some fun maps in Doom II, but there were plenty of dull ones, and the city levels set a new record in ugliness. It's a shame because with the new monsters and SSG to spice up the game balance it could have been a much better game than it is, and Doom II is a much better game to make levels for than Doom.

[Abyssalstudios1]

Nomad said:

TeamTNT shat out Plutonia in, like, one night and I thought it was better than Doom 2.

I assume you mean they "shat out" Evilution? Plutonia was created by two brothers, I think their last name was Casili, or something Italian like that. They're very different WADS. Evilution was a fairly typical multi-person effort, while Plutonia took the unique step of never placing monsters in front of the player.

[GBT3]

Abyssalstudios1 said:

I assume you mean they "shat out" Evilution? Plutonia was created by two brothers, I think their last name was Casili, or something Italian like that. They're very different WADS. Evilution was a fairly typical multi-person effort, while Plutonia took the unique step of never placing monsters in front of the player.

Casali Brothers. And they are considered as TeamTNT because they did Plutonia while being members of TeamTNT until it have been finished. So Final Doom is frequently considered as general TeamTNT work and Plutonia because it was done by two team members, Dario and Milo Casali. Still, both versions about Plutonia are correct, that one with Casali brothers and that one with TeamTNT.

Btw.

Evilution is suspense'n'hardness 'techbase' wad based more on action and gameplay; while Plutonia is based on tactic, strategy, difficulty and 'hellish' theme.

[kristus]

Plutonia has nothing to do with Team TNT.

[GBT3]

kristus said:

Plutonia has nothing to do with Team TNT.

Really, learn to read.

http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Milo_Casali

While working on Memento Mori with his brother Dario, Milo met several members of TeamTNT, and eventually joined the group. He designed one level for TNT: Evilution, then created half of the levels in The Plutonia Experiment. He has not worked with TeamTNT since Final Doom was published.

http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Dario_Casali

While working on Memento Mori with his brother Milo, Dario met several members of TeamTNT, and eventually joined the group. He created two levels, and co-authored one more, for TNT: Evilution, then designed half of the levels in The Plutonia Experiment. He has not worked with TeamTNT since Final Doom was published.

http://teamtnt.com/ixfd.htm

TeamTNT members made all the levels, new music and new graphics in Final DOOM. It's two 32-level sets, TNT:Evilution and The Plutonia Experiment.

The Plutonia Experiment is another complete 32-level replacement for DOOM2, created entirely by two TeamTNT members, Dario and Milo Casali.