Musical plagiarism in Freedoom

[fraggle]

GhostlyDeath said:

Whatever happened to providing a text file along with music anyway?

Metabolist included text files with the music he submitted. Here's what they said:

This archive contains six finished pieces by me (Metabolist)
for levels 09, 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15.

--Metabolist

This archive contains fifteen finished pieces by me (Metabolist)
for levels 09, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 20, 21, 22, 23, 25, 26, 27, 28 and 29.
[...]

So it's not like he didn't document them. He just outright lied.

[RestlessRodent]

I remember looking on the musics/ directory but text files are scattered and some are missing in directories. They should at least contain a list of MIDI files and who (suposidely) made them and how to find them.

[Torn]

But what now, how many midis is left in freedoom?

[chungy]

28

[blue95]

It's cool the copyright violation has been removed in version 0.6.4, but I have a question. Sorry if this is dumb to ask, but I notice on the levels without music there's no sound effects. Is there any reason why? Sound effects are on other levels that have music.

I don't know how an iwad works, but I just wonder why it's like that.

Not to make anyone mad, but I did a Google search on Doom 2, and Freedoom level 2 sounds the same as Doom 2 level 2 to me. Would this also count as a violation as well?

EDIT: I played it again, and now there's just sound effects, with no music. Same version too. I'm on a neighbor's computer and not mine.

[chungy]

blue95 said:

Not to make anyone mad, but I did a Google search on Doom 2, and Freedoom level 2 sounds the same as Doom 2 level 2 to me. Would this also count as a violation as well?

It's actually not the same, the tune is very similar but the arrangement is all changed... whether it's legally distinct or not would be the real question (as another example, see Duke Nukem 3D's E4M1; the music sounds just like Mission Impossible, but that Bobby Prince knew how to keep it just different enough to be in the clear...).

[blue95]

MikeRS said:

It's actually not the same, the tune is very similar but the arrangement is all changed... whether it's legally distinct or not would be the real question (as another example, see Duke Nukem 3D's E4M1; the music sounds just like Mission Impossible, but that Bobby Prince knew how to keep it just different enough to be in the clear...).

That's a relief. Hearing the two made me wonder if it was. Maybe I should listen to them back to back to see how different they are. Thanks for clearing that up.

[myk]

MikeRS said:
It's actually not the same, the tune is very similar but the arrangement is all changed... whether it's legally distinct or not would be the real question (as another example, see Duke Nukem 3D's E4M1; the music sounds just like Mission Impossible, but that Bobby Prince knew how to keep it just different enough to be in the clear...).

There is no rule on "how different" something has to be to avoid being derivative; the sole judgment is whether it is evident that its based on a copyrighted original, totally or in part.

In this case we have a track for a game that is a replacement of another, where a track sounds very similar to one in the original, which rules out coincidences (sometimes music sounds similar to other music but there is no way of telling this is not because of mere chance). The point is, while it has been made different in various aspects, due to the context it is evident the author had to work in relation to the original track. I would get rid of such a resource. What could save it is a third free source used as the base for both.

Unfortunately, many of the patches and flats in Freedoom suffer from the same problem, especially the less generic ones. This resulted from people crafting it to replace a specific copyrighted IWAD or pieces of PWADs that are derivatives of it. The free source code gave us the possibility of making games with the source code, not of basing games on the IWADs.

Bobby Prince's stance, by the way, was on how to avoid being sued, not on making DOOM's music non-derivative. It's what informal mods do and something free software tries to avoid.

[samiam]

Jimmy91 said:

To be honest, they all sound a bit "flavorless". Not sure how else to say it... they just don't conjure up anything really vivid in my mind when I listen to them. :( Sorry, but I don't think these belong in FreeDoom.

[/B]

I'd rather have "flavorless" music than no music for the levels now missing music. Have these contributions been made part of the FreeDoom tree?

[fraggle]

blue95 said:

d, but I did a Google search on Doom 2, and Freedoom level 2 sounds the same as Doom 2 level 2 to me. Would this also count as a violation as well?

I agree very strongly with this. Freedoom should be made distinct from and obviously different to the original IWADs wherever possible. I certainly don't think it has just been modified from the original IWAD music (ie. it has been made from scratch), but it still sounds far too close to the original.

Arguing that Bobby Prince did the same thing in Doom is irrelevant.

Replacing this is something I meant to do while I was maintainer and never got around to.

[leileilol]

if that's the case, then Ralphis' e1m5 remix in Freeodom is a concern too, and even the e1m1 music

[fraggle]

Yes, very much so. I'd say those are even worse.

[Ralphis]

Not to mention my tracks are ancient and suck total ass (I'm talking total ass here), I'd hope they aren't used any more anyway

[jute]

Well, whatever the debatable merits of my Dave3D tracks may be, I definitely didn't plagiarize.

[Catoptromancy]

jute said:

Well, whatever the debatable merits of my Dave3D tracks may be, I definitely didn't plagiarize.

Could you zip them up and officially submit them? Would be very cool.

[jute]

Sure. I'll try to get it done tomorrow.

[Jon]

myk said:

In this case we have a track for a game that is a replacement of another, where a track sounds very similar to one in the original, which rules out coincidences (sometimes music sounds similar to other music but there is no way of telling this is not because of mere chance). The point is, while it has been made different in various aspects, due to the context it is evident the author had to work in relation to the original track. I would get rid of such a resource. What could save it is a third free source used as the base for both.

I would agree that such tracks should also be changed. I can't recall which levels but there are a handful which are very similar to the originals. Quite aside from the legal argument, they sound like pale imitations.

[Creaphis]

Let's just throw out the whole damn project and start over.

[jute]

Catoptromancy said:

Could you zip them up and officially submit them? Would be very cool.

Done. Hopefully I submitted it properly.

[Catoptromancy]

Look awesome. Ill sift through them and get them in builds sometime.

[BlackJar72]

I've have a small collection of music that I wrote for a mod I no longer intend to finish (decided it was more trouble than it was worth). They're not that great as straight listening music (I've done much better) and short since I expected them to be int the background. None of it is gear toward specific maps in FreeDoom of course (I'll let someone else decide where it should go) and the titles are lame, but I have these:

(1) Ominous theme #1 -- spooky, and well, impending DOOM
(2) Militaristic theme #1 -- a rock march, heroic
(3) Eerie theme #1 -- soft and implies a sci-fi / suspense feel
(4) Action theme #1 -- I'm less proud of this, its seems too familiar and it too simple and too like militaristic theme
(5) Thrashin' theme #1 -- extremely short loop, repetitive; very fast, wild, and aggressive

However, I don't have a play to upload them, so I'll have to e-mail them to Mike or someone.

[Catoptromancy]

You can use an ftp client and use the Freedoom ftp.
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/freedoom/42740-how-to-submit-stuff-to-freedoom/

Or you can use speedyshare.com

More music is always good.

[Woolie Wool]

myk said:

Unfortunately, many of the patches and flats in Freedoom suffer from the same problem, especially the less generic ones. This resulted from people crafting it to replace a specific copyrighted IWAD or pieces of PWADs that are derivatives of it. The free source code gave us the possibility of making games with the source code, not of basing games on the IWADs.

The thing is that if you want FreeDoom to be in any way compatible with PWADs, certain textures must look very much like the originals to preserve the architecture and color matching used in various maps (especially more recent ones where detail standards are much higher and the architecture is made to fit the textures to a very exacting degree). Losing compatibility with maps made for the original IWADs would be an enormous blow to the project because PWADs are the very lifeblood of Doom and most PWAD authors are already familiar with the IWAD resources and probably will not consider changing.

[myk]

Yes, although I've argued the opposite, as removing that would allow it to be a game with its own aesthetic and even game play nuances. Then, any DOOM designers could use their experience to make add-ons for it, or to adapt their DOOM levels to it. There's also the fact that all DOOM add-on PWADs were made under the DOOM EULAs (all are at least subtly based on the IWADs.) You can see how Freedoom generally lacks incentive behind it from artists and designers. I would say that's mainly because it's little more than a "fill in" for a game that can easily be downloaded anyway for a low fee (or none, if one insists.)

[Woolie Wool]

Are you implying with the EULA thing that playing Doom PWADs under FreeDoom is somehow illegal (speaking of illegal, I'm shocked that that plasma gun pickup sprite was never replaced)? I don't think most EULAs have much bearing on people who don't actually have the game the EULA is made for (i.e. FreeDoom's primary target audience)--a contract that you never saw and never agreed to ought not to apply to you.

[myk]

You need to look into the IWADs (or PWADs and add-ons or applications that may contain equivalent data, which id considers derivative works) to make Freedoom in the first place. A truly free game is based only on free components (such as the source code.) Stuff like TEXTUREx, the palette and so on would be from scratch, made exclusively for the new game.

[samboy]

Necrothread resurrection:

 

I have just made a megawad (size optimized; has only six unique maps; three Freedoom maps and three Oblige maps; works with Deng 1.8.6) that has the old version of the MAP12 theme (and no other music from Metabolist, but I’m attached to that theme).  While there were concerns about copyright violation with the MAP28 and MAP21 themes, there has been no evidence shown that the themes in the first batch (MAP09, MAP11, MAP12, MAP13, MAP14, and MAP15) were plagiarized.

 

For people who want to hear the old MAP12 in this megawad, the download is here: https://samiam.org/slump/ObHack-FreeDoom-0.7.7.7z

 

If this MAP12 theme has a non-free copyright, please post the MIDI that the MAP12 theme was copied from; be sure the theme is from 2008 or sooner.

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by samboy
wording fix 2018-09-20

[Teivman]

13 hours ago, samboy said:

Necrothread resurrection:

 

I have just made a megawad (size optimized; has only six unique maps; three Freedoom maps and three Oblige maps; works with Deng 1.8.6) that has the old version of the MAP12 theme (and no other music from Metabolist, but I’m attached to that theme).  While there were concerns about copyright violation with the MAP28 and MAP21 themes, there has been no evidence shown that the themes in the first batch (MAP09, MAP11, MAP12, MAP13, MAP14, and MAP15) were plagiarized.

 

For people who want to hear the old MAP12 in this megawad, the download is here: https://samiam.org/slump/ObHack-FreeDoom-0.7.7.7z

 

If this MAP12 theme has a non-free copyright, please post the MIDI that the MAP12 theme was copied from; be sure the theme is from 2008 or sooner.

 

Did you really need to bump a ten year old thread?

[samboy]

Here is a MP3 of the track; if anyone recognizes it from a 1990s Doom or Duke Nukem mod, or any other copyrighted source from 2004 or sooner, let me know.

 

https://samiam.org/slump/d_theda2.mp3

 

The full wad with this one track from Metabolist is now in .zip format:

 

https://samiam.org/slump/ObHack-FreeDoom-0.7.7.zip

 

I have done some more research on this issue (which is well known among the Doom community).  Metabolist has a webpage right here at Doomworld:

 

https://www.doomworld.com/metabolist/

 

He mentions plagiarism on that page: “you know how the original Doom music has lots of near-plagiarism”

 

The issue was mentioned in a wad review as recently as April of 2018: https://onemandoom.blogspot.com/2018/04/mortiser-4-chemical-plant-swmort4wad.html#more

 

“Woodsy's greatest lasting legacy will almost certainly be Plutonia 2 [...] After that, probably the Freedoom soundtrack debacle, which seems less surprising now since I've read the liner notes for Omega Facility.”

 

Here are the linear notes from that wad:

 

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/s-u/swomega

 

“Thanks for the music must go to Michael himself, for making it back in 1996, and also to Nick Baker and Marc Pullen; Marc found some old MIDIs and sent them to Nick, who asked me to extend some of them to a more respectable length (a few were like 30 seconds), and one of them was a piece by Walthius (FYI, "The Gates of Doom") and his homepage and address were in the file.  I visited his homepage and got about 45 songs off there, totalling [sic] over 4 hours.”

 

 

Edited September 21, 2018 by samboy
Wording fix

[ENEMY!!!]

The issue of several Doom (especially Doom 2) tracks being very close to Metallica, Slayer et al. is well established, but the E2M6 and Bela Bartok's Music for Strings, Piano and Celesta is far more of a stretch.  There are broad rhythmic similarities but no passages come close to being copied note for note, and the harmony is completely different: the section of Bartok's piece starting around 3:27 veers towards atonal, whereas E2M6 is strongly tonal music, never straying far from the key of Eb/D# minor.  To my mind, they are easily different enough for it to be likely to be coincidence. 

Yeah, the liner notes to Omega Facility do imply a possible risk of plagiarism.