Claustrophobia 1024 Demos

[tatsurd-cacocaco]

I improved two my old demos.

Map 20 UV-Max in 2:55
Map 23 UV-Max in 1:58

1024clau_tatsurd2.zip

[Graim]

Some more improvements:

Map03 pacifist in 0:27
Map04 pacifist in 0:26

Map05 UV-Speed in 1:26

2c_graim2.zip

[Anima Zero]

The demo I did today was easily the hardest level I've recorded on in awhile. I did a UV-Max for map 33, "Nil". Time for the run is 9:21. Easily improvable, but the last 1/3rd or so of the level is nightmare on wheels...and then some.

Attaching demo now.

2c33-921.zip

[skepticist]

2 gggmork: no, it was`t ghost. According to compet-n rules it is not necessary to rekill any revived monsters so i just skip him to save some seconds. Anyway, new demo features ALL the monsters are killed.
2 dew: glad to see you like it. It took roughly 80 mins.

map17 uv-max in 6:59
map18 uv-max in 3:01

map32 max anyone? i gave it few tries and can say it`s definitely not a hard map, but my runs are pretty slow by now.

1024clau_skepticist_6.zip

[tatsurd-cacocaco]

skepticist said:

According to compet-n rules it is not necessary to rekill any revived monsters so i just skip him to save some seconds.

However, why did you recognize the revenant as a revived monster?

[skepticist]

tatsurd-cacocaco said:

However, why did you recognize the revenant as a revived monster?

I recognized it from HUD stats, it was shown that every monster is killed.

[TimeOfDeath]

It seems like the only reason compet-n says revived monsters don't have to be killed is because you only have to kill a monster once to get the kill %. This just sounds like a bug to me. :)

[Anima Zero]

Well, I managed to do a much better UV-Max for map 33. Everything went as well as it could have here.

New time is 6:44.

Attaching zipfile now.

2c33-644.zip

[tatsurd-cacocaco]

skepticist said:

I recognized it from HUD stats, it was shown that every monster is killed.

I expected the answer. You should be better not to use the HUD when recording demos.

Please read the page. (mainly Grazza's reply.)
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-speed-demos/41850-the-community-chest-series-demo-thread/7/

[skepticist]

Ok, i understood. Revived monsters should be rekilled if it`s possible. But then i think someone should change rules that written on both Doom Wiki and Compet-n FAQ to make sure no disinformation out there.

[myk]

Well, the info there doesn't seem to be wrong since it's based on the COMPET-N FAQ, although I had a hunch COMPET-N was in practice using an "all monsters must be dead" rule except for boss spawner monsters. I get the impression people started killing arch-vile resurrections too just because it's usually hard to tell which has been revived and which was there from the start, particularly during play, due to Doom's standard behavior, which doesn't have extra HUD info.

Nonetheless, for a pack it's better to choose one way or the other so that all the demos do the same thing.

[Butts]

Nice demo, dew! I pretty much purposely tried to fuck over speedrunning (for the most part), because I wanted people to play the map...

[TimeOfDeath]

I don't see a problem with using the extra HUD info, as long as you mention it. All of my maps were designed to be played with extra HUD info in prboom-plus and automap/timer info in ZDoom, and I'm sure other people's maps too, so who's to say that using that info on one of those maps is cheating? Sometimes the info doesn't even give an advantage (except the timer).

[dew]

sorry for breaking your map, butts... it was the impassable line preventing the AV jump that enraged me and made me fight the system. ;)

but don't worry, i played the map a lot, this took hours. skipping both those linedefs is a complete freak luck accident and it's safe to say it's not what a casual player will get, no matter how hard he tries. jumping just one doesn't help much, the horde needs cleaning out to be safe and jumping just the bars-closing one (much harder, btw) breaks the map completely, they won't open at all. and it needs to be repeated on the way back, of course, although it's much easier with a simple sr50 run. i guess it's just the waiting in the secret area that really sucks. :)

oh and the additional HUD info... i use it, too. both for casual play and demoing, although with my speed/pacifist specialization it's just simple time-checking. it shouldn't be an advantage over anyone, because the new wads don't have strict recording limitations and having a valid compet-n demo requires using vanilla exe. i can't imagine pressing '+' twice being a cheat. the -record parameter or classic complevel should block it if that's the cause.

[myk]

TimeOfDeath said:
I don't see a problem with using the extra HUD info, as long as you mention it.

As long as there's an agreement beforehand, there's no problem. Although in respect to using Boom compatibility for a pack, competition, or such organized endeavor, the HUD extras (showing kills and secrets or other info beyond health, armor and ammo) should be considered TAS or cheating by default. This is because they're absent in the basic engine (Boom) and grant the minor but potentially relevant advantage of giving the player more ease to optimize his recordings, for his efforts. For example, less time might be spent during uncertain backtracking or on the need to rerecord when making a bad judgment call and exiting with some secrets not triggered or monsters still alive.

[TimeOfDeath]

I just think comparing it to TAS or cheating is a bit harsh. If someone's trying to beat a time that used the extra info, then they should use the info too instead of considering it cheating.

[myk]

TimeOfDeath said:
I just think comparing it to TAS or cheating is a bit harsh.

TAS just means that extra features not found in the basic engine help the recording. In this case, it's a minor extra in regard to what "Boom compatibility" implies. Cheating is the same thing, but where it has been made clear the feature shouldn't be used. It may sound harsh but its good to be consistent and straightforward in respect to what's allowed during recording or else minor features start to creep in and eventually they add up and make a bigger difference, and it's hard to keep track of things like that.

I don't think people have cheated here because things weren't entirely clear to everyone and it's apparent no one did anything to try to get an unfair advantage. They just used the minor extra feature, out of habit.

[The Green Herring]

myk said:

Although in respect to using Boom compatibility for a pack, competition, or such organized endeavor, the HUD extras (showing kills and secrets or other info beyond health, armor and ammo) should be considered TAS or cheating by default. This is because they're absent in the basic engine (Boom) [...]

Screenshot taken in Boom. As in PrBoom+, pressing + twice from the regular status bar brings it up, and by default, pressing F5 toggles the exact arrangement and what's shown on the screen.

Even, still, though, it doesn't properly keep track of whether the enemy you just killed already died and was resurrected, just like the original engine. PrBoom+ has an option for "Smart Totals" in the HUD setup that checks for this, and refuses to add a kill if said kill was a revived monster. Without it, PrBoom+ simply keeps track of killed monsters and live ones. (Incidentally, I used this to practice UV -respawn demos before recording them in doom(2).exe [or whatever engine is intended for a level.])

[myk]

Heh, thanks for the correction. I actually had the impression that info could be seen in Boom. I was even writing a post saying so and thus arguing it's not TAS but decided to double-check and failed to bring it up, and thought, "ah well, it's not in Boom then!".

It happens I had the "hide secrets" option in the HUD options section set to Yes, which disables the extra info (I even saw it earlier and thought it was something else).

I think, then, that the extra info should not be considered TAS, as vanilla's features shouldn't define what's normal in other engine demos.

As for smart totals in PrBoom+, it'll matter only if one goes by the "no need to kill resurrected monsters" rule. If killing everything is necessary, which seems to be what is being argued for, it's irrelevant (if not an issue).

[Graim]

in the meantime ...

Map16 UV pacifist in 0:48

2c16pa048.zip

[gggmork]

Did 32, but missed an imp who decided to take a trip and hide down the stairs, plus a chaingunner who got knocked unreachable off the side (only 98% kills, not really that fast either).

The first part takes lots of attempts (the cyber rarely shoots/infights in time for you to go back down the stairs) then the rest is pretty easy/lots of life. I accidently figured out you can nab the red key from behind the wall.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/m1n3to

[skepticist]

Nice run gggmork. Still it can go much faster i think, it must be at least sub-8. Here`s my attempt, also not proper UV-max, i lost one monster somewhere. I wasted half minute in tries to find him and end up with 8:35.

2c32-attempt.zip

[gggmork]

In addition to the red key, you can also grab the bfg from behind the closed door:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/3dthua
(its kinda hard, not sure if changing weapons right when you hit the door helps- aim for the center of the door to do it)
Still, I died in this run and it wouldn't have been as fast as yours anyway (nice run, it was a chaingunner that fell off for you too). BFG doesn't work that well on the cybers at that distance.

[skepticist]

Hmm... i`ve got 7:47. Still not very satysfying. Under 7 mins should be possible. Actually, i have one attempt that was close to break 7 mins barrier, but i died in really stupid way in the very end :-(

2c32-747.zip

[dew]

ha, i've been playing with that map myself... i've spotted the grabs mork mentions, but couldn't do the bfg one. there's yet another grab that was the primary reason for me to record a -nomo in 0:48 and my first TAS, in 1:26 (using re-recording with -recordfromto).

the red key grab isn't hard this fast even without cheating, but the rest gets insane. i've gotten to opening the blue door once, but then got owned by the roaming cyber. also, shooting the switch behind the guardian cyber works cca NEVER. killing him with ssg = not fun in UV-speed.

2c32dew.zip

[skepticist]

map21 uv-max in 3:12
map32 uv-max in 6:58

1024clau_skepticist_7.zip

[Gusta]

Great demos, all of them! Keep on good work, guys! :-)

[gggmork]

That yellow key rocket grab was a nice trick (earlier I tried running at the wall from below (blue key too).. but remembered that wouldn't work because you have to be the same height as the key).

another FAIL run: map32 in 6:31, missed a retarded imp who decided to hide out in some far away corner for eternity then not make any sort of imp snort sound until a millisecond before I pushed the exit switch (typical doom behavior). Maybe 6:10 would be possible for me with faster/more efficient bfg use (or 5:50 for mousers, heh). doubt I'll try more though, too much luck based stuff like chaingunners jumping out windows.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/8o8y7q

[dew]

map03 UV-speed in 0:22
map32 UV-speed in 3:50
map33 UV-speed in 3:11

the two slaughter maps were driving me crazy, especially map32 was challenging. the demos look silly compared to max runs in this thread, i'm really bad at shooting monsters. :)

2c_dew4.zip

[dew]

it's a month now and noone filled map19, so i did it myself. expect 'newb at maxing' effort. :)

map19 UV-max in 1:38

2c19-138.zip