1994 tune-up challenge (*updated /idgames link*)

[Gez]

Solarn said:

That's an entirely different argument that has nothing to do with the current one. Also, you're not helping.

It is entirely the same argument. Using resources from another game is using resources from another game. I don't see how using Doom textures in Doom 2 is a worse offense than using Heretic textures in Doom 2.

[printz]

I'm not really a fan of loading a whole game WAD, with palettes, sounds and anything else, in memory, for a handful of textures. Doom 2 has other tech textures itself, like the SPACE ones.

But I think this megawad should be for Doom 1. Due to modern ports, I see no problem of staying limited to Doom 1, when there exist custom monsters, that are based on Doom 1 creatures, to fill the Doom 2 gap or make different challenges. A species expansion of Doom 1 type creatures sounds better than polluting classic levels with Doom 2 technology. We'd be keeping the super shotgun out of the game, and fighting zombie, imp, demon, skull, cacodemon, baron and boss variations, which all can be placed instead of the stock monsters, and make the game more challenging for today.

Custom textures can be taken from KDiZD, because that pack allows it ("Authors MAY use the contents of this file as a base for modification or reuse.").

Gez said:

It is entirely the same argument. Using resources from another game is using resources from another game. I don't see how using Doom textures in Doom 2 is a worse offense than using Heretic textures in Doom 2.

Already existing wads using Heretic resources, such as Alien Vendetta, can be salvaged by using Blasphemer textures instead.

[traversd]

Update to WillE1M1. Put the 2 Cyberdemons in the final room now to as a test. I guess I don;t really expect the player to take them out just not get killed. Prolly a bad idea if someone wants 100/100/100 yeh?

Skill settings and hopefully all sectors (secrets etc) are now done.

Still need to find a good spot for the chaingun, I've got it in twice at present one is "secret-ish" the other not.



Also WTF causes this flashing stuff in GZDoom? Brightmaps gone bad or something? (Sorry large PNG)





-t

td-WillE1M1
http://t.underworldgamers.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/td-wille1m1.zip

[myk]

Gez said:
While we're arguing about a few Doom textures that are missing in Doom 2, what about those wads that use Heretic or Hexen resources? I think we should get Herian and Mordeth nuked from the archives.

Go ahead and do it then, if you think it's important. I said I would go and talk Ty into removing the DOOM rip file because its very and only purpose is to make DOOM II WADs use DOOM resources, to encourage that behavior, and because it adds nothing creative itself, at all. Deleting that (while supplying an alternative) and just deleting a set that contains original levels and stuff is not the same thing.

Unless they're made to be loaded with hexen.wad as a pwad. Then you can play it legitimately, even if it's with a completely screwed up palette that makes everything look awful.

You could do it properly, I bet. What about coding the support of a resource that maps palettes to certain specific graphics? Thus you could make the DOOM stuff use DOOM's palette and the Hexen stuff use its own. Without having to apply the palette from the other game, which itself often looks relatively shitty. If possible, I'd recommend such a treatment in an engine like ZDoom, for example, that can very easily mix such resources.

[Gez]

traversd said:

Also WTF causes this flashing stuff in GZDoom? Brightmaps gone bad or something? (Sorry large PNG)

Yes, apparently. But you can fix that bug if you turn "smooth sprite edges" on.

[kristus]

Looks kind of like Stencil shadows. :p

[Solarn]

Gez said:

It is entirely the same argument. Using resources from another game is using resources from another game. I don't see how using Doom textures in Doom 2 is a worse offense than using Heretic textures in Doom 2.

It's not about how bad an offense it is. It's about the fact that loading doom.wad as a PWAD for Doom 2 maps is a valid way of solving the problem of using Doom textures in Doom 2, while doing the same with Hexen or Heretic IWADs would screw up the palette.

Also, you're still not helping. Stop adding fuel to the fire.

[Solarn]

printz said:

I'm not really a fan of loading a whole game WAD, with palettes, sounds and anything else, in memory, for a handful of textures. Doom 2 has other tech textures itself, like the SPACE ones.

But I think this megawad should be for Doom 1. Due to modern ports, I see no problem of staying limited to Doom 1, when there exist custom monsters, that are based on Doom 1 creatures, to fill the Doom 2 gap or make different challenges. A species expansion of Doom 1 type creatures sounds better than polluting classic levels with Doom 2 technology. We'd be keeping the super shotgun out of the game, and fighting zombie, imp, demon, skull, cacodemon, baron and boss variations, which all can be placed instead of the stock monsters, and make the game more challenging for today.

Custom textures can be taken from KDiZD, because that pack allows it ("Authors MAY use the contents of this file as a base for modification or reuse.").
Already existing wads using Heretic resources, such as Alien Vendetta, can be salvaged by using Blasphemer textures instead.

1) I don't want this to be for Doom 1, as the map I'm doing is for Doom 2.
2) Most of those custom monsters don't look or play too good. Just think of the insane number of zombie recolors with different weapons. Plus, this project is supposed to be Boom compatible.
3) I *like* Doom 2 technology.
4) Also, the problem with Blasphemer textures is the same as with FreeDoom ones, in that they don't look anything like the originals.

[Super Jamie]

printz said:

Custom textures can be taken from KDiZD, because that pack allows it.

I think this is probably the solution to everyone's problems.

[GreyGhost]

Snarboo said:

Loading my map in GZDoom tells me that there are four unknown textures, named waterfl#. Do those textures not exist in the Ultimate Doom or Doom 2?

D1texd2.wad contains a re-colour of Plutonia's Waterfall texture, which is in turn a re-colour of Doom 2's Bloodfall/Slimefall texture. Looks like SargeBaldy tossed them in as an added bonus.

This might sound like a crackpot suggestion - but - has anyone considered making this a dual-format wad, containing a mix of Doom and Doom 2 maps? I've seen a few around where the author includes two versions of the same map, so it can be played regardless of the IWAD used, with a bit of work I don't see why the same technique couldn't be applied to a megawad - not neccessarily having two versions of each map, some participants might be content to have their tuned-up map playable in one format only. While this isn't an ideal solution for participants who want to mix and match resources from both IWAD's it's still a possible solution for the ripped resource problem.

[Super Jamie]

GreyGhost said:

dual-format wad, containing a mix of Doom and Doom 2 maps

You'd still need the PNAMES and TEXTURE lumps that define both Doom 1 and Doom 2 textures. This is more or less what myk's suggesting, except with a Dual-format wad if you don't -file the other IWAD you have to quit and start again to play the maps from the other game, as resources will be missing and idclev11 is handled differently in Doom 1 and Doom 2. To me, that seems more fiddly and broken than just going -file doom.wad pwad.wad

Poor Snarboo, this really has been blown all out of proportion.

[Solarn]

Super Jamie said:

You'd still need the PNAMES and TEXTURE lumps that define both Doom 1 and Doom 2 textures. This is more or less what myk's suggesting, except with a Dual-format wad if you don't -file the other IWAD you have to quit and start again to play the maps from the other game, as resources will be missing and idclev11 is handled differently in Doom 1 and Doom 2. To me, that seems more fiddly and broken than just going -file doom.wad pwad.wad

Poor Snarboo, this really has been blown all out of proportion.

Yeah, it started out sensible and then people started riling each other up. I think everybody should take a step back metaphorically, take a deep breath and try to be calm about this.

[pavera]

Yeah this project started as fun but the last few pages have been pretty heated. Why don't we just keep building our levels as we were, and then figure out what to do about the textures once we're at that point?

[GreyGhost]

That's probably the best course of action for now - I'd hate to see this project die for the sake of a handful of textures.

[Mr. Freeze]

Woah woah woah, whats going on? Everybody just relax, take a deep breath, and remember: This is not the end of the world.

On a more related note: My map is now completed. You can find it at:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?nkndoqyktdu

EDIT: Sign me up for Wad Pack 2 E2M3: SWEET.WAD

Also, I have some original music for my level and level completed music. Snarboo, let me know if you want to use them.

[tatsurd-cacocaco]

traversd said:

Nice work TC. Only thing from those SS's I would suggest is to change the flat for the King's throne. It looks to be the same as the floor. Perhaps FLAT5_3 or FLAT10? For some reason I'd lean towards FLAT10.

I used the red texture (FLOOR1_6) as a carpet and a mat on throne, so I won't change it. I'm glad that some people commented on my SS. I'm a inexpert mapper and very uneasy about my mapping sense.

EDIT: I don't intend to be concern the textures' discussion. However, I think the way that two IWADs are read at the same time for the pwad shouldn't be adopted. It's quite unfriendly and complicated for all Doomers. Whatever the reasons are, Doom2's textures have to complement all maps.

[printz]

Snarboo said:

I've decided that everyone should check in with their progress once week, probably on Sundays. This is just to see how everyone is doing and get a status report from those that haven't posted one yet.

Fine. http://rapidshare.com/files/252685653/tuneup.wad.html
Based on http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=1189
Too bad today is Monday.

[NiGHTMARE]

A few Doom 1 textures which are missing from Doom 2 actually still have all the necessary patches present. STARTAN1 is a good example. Also, most of the Doom 1 switches which were changed can easily be changed back.

As for those Doom 1 patches not present in Doom 2, here's my thoughts after a quick look through:

COMP01x and COMP1x: A new, almost identical gray background is very easily created from scratch (and in fact I already have one made for another project). The grey stripe at the bottom can be copied from WALL03_1. Several of the computer bits'n'pieces can be copied from RW32_3 and the COMP03x and COMP04 patches.

COMP02x: Most of these can very easily be recreated, as they're extremely similar to computer patches that *are* present in Doom 2; e.g. COMP02_1 and COMP02_8 vs. COMP04_2, COMP02_2 vs. COMP04_1, COMP02_4 and COMP02_6 vs. COMP03_5. Aproximations for others could be done either from scratch, or perhaps by copying stuff from the Freedoom computer patches. The vents at the bottom can be copied from RW46_6.

COMP03_6 and COMP03_7: Easily done by modifying COMP03_4.

DOOR2_3: The brown bits can be copied from WALL03_1, and the grey stuff is easily recreated from scratch.

FLAMP: One of the trickier ones. Start with AG128_1 as a base, and work from there.

HELL6_1 and HELL8_3: Obviously HELL6_3, HELL8_2, and HELL_4 should be used as the base. The tricky part is recreating the border between the two.

PS15A0: Probably best to modify the Freedoom version to more closely resemble the original.

SW2_3: I suck at intricate stuff like demonic faces. Using Freedom's is the easiest solution, unless someone else is willing to make one.

SW11_5: Easy. Just recolour SW11_2.

TP5x: Again, easy. Just recolour RP2x.

TSCRNx: Many elements of these can be recreated by copy'n'pasting from TOMW2_1 and TOMW2_2 (TSCRN6 especially). I also have a metric tonne of TSCRN variants.

W104_1: Copy FLOOR6_2 twice to make a 64x128 texture, then modify the bottom half so it looks different to the top half.

W108_1: Another tricky one. Perhaps look at using an alternate Baron death frame from somewhere?

W109x and W110_1: Not difficult, but likely time consuming. Use W94_1 and HELL6_3 as a base, adding pipes, holes, blood smears, etc.

W113x: Startwith WALL62_1, and add diagonal gaps.

W13_A: Just modify RW32_2.

W13_8: Fairly easily remade from scratch (Freedoom's is pretty ugly ;).

W15_4 and W15_5: Copy AG128x and recolour.

W15_6: Add new light texture to the new W15_4.

WALL03_3: More intricate details. Perhaps copy Freedom's wheel-things and paste them on the regular Doom (2) WALL03_4.

WALL21x: Add some blue lines to WALL03_4. For WALL21_3, copy from COMP03_1.

WALL24_1: I'm not even going to try remaking this. Using Freedom's would be the best solution.

WALL51_1: Maybe paste on one of Doom 2's hanging body sprites?

WALL57_1: Just WLA128_1 with nukage on the bottom. Not exactly hard to do.

WALL57_2 - WALL57_4: Slightly tricky. Perhaps copy nukage from SFALLx, and bars from RW45_1.

WALL63_2: This is simply WALL63_1 with blood splatters. Again not particularly difficult.

WALL70_2: Start with W32_1, move the lines around, and paste in tech damage from WALL72_5 (resized to fit).

WALL70_3: Take WALL03_1, paste in elements from WALL00_1, and add slime using WALL72_7 as a layer.

WALL76_1 and WALL79_1: Just use Freedoom's?

WALL78_1: Assemble bits of WALL01x and recolour.

Solarn said:

2) Most of those custom monsters don't look or play too good. Just think of the insane number of zombie recolors with different weapons. Plus, this project is supposed to be Boom compatible.

It's entirely possible to make a Boom-compatible Doom 1 .wad that adds new monsters, without replacing those which already exist in Doom 1. All you need to do is utilise the Doom 2 monster frames in the accompanying .bex patch.

[pavera]

Mr. Freeze said:

Woah woah woah, whats going on? Everybody just relax, take a deep breath, and remember: This is not the end of the world.

On a more related note: My map is now completed. You can find it at:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?nkndoqyktdu

EDIT: Sign me up for Wad Pack 2 E2M3: SWEET.WAD

Also, I have some original music for my level and level completed music. Snarboo, let me know if you want to use them.

Great job on that map. Also, check your PMs.

@printz: AWESOME tuneup! That was really intense.

[tatsurd-cacocaco]

Btw, why can't some maps which were finished be read in prBoom-plus?

[40oz]

If anyone has any suggestions for switching IWADs or using texture resources or making it for a certain source port, you are too late. We already got 4 maps done. There's no sense in doing an overhaul on what's already been done. I'm really not interested in tweaking the map I finished for compatibility with new shit you suggest.

[Butts]

Just stick with the original plan...

[Snarboo]

Butts said:

Just stick with the original plan...

That's the plan. :)

Here is the wad I made with Freedoom textures so you guys can decide if they are to your liking. I think they work well enough, but I want you guys to decide first.

For those working on a map, just continue doing what you are doing. If you are using Doom textures, everything should work out fine.

Edit: Note that not all of Doom's textures have been replaced. I recommend opening the wad file with XWE to see which textures are replaced. Some of the textures have been slightly modified, namely the PSx patches.

Sky textures were also removed, which might cause problems with PrBoom. I'll add those back.

Edit 2:
@Nightmare If you think you can make a suitable replacement for Doom's texture, you're welcome to take a crack at replacing them. :) I think Freedoom's textures work pretty well, but there are a number of thematic differences.

Also, I think this is better suited to Doom 2 because of the amount of flexability you get from the texturs and monsters available. It's not as pure, but then the aim of the project isn't necessarily for the modified maps to be entirely the same.

[40oz]

Mr. Freeze said:

On a more related note: My map is now completed. You can find it at:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?nkndoqyktdu

I really think you should post your map up for playtesting purposes before you consider it finally completed because I have a few gripes with it.

Just so you know, I'm being nitpicky on purpose. I haven't played the original version of this map, and I believe it's fair that for a tune-up challenge, that I review your map as if you made it entirely yourself. They behaved like this for Claustrophobia 1024 and wad was nearly flawless because of it.

One big thing i want to point out is that I was flat-out of ammo at this point. You can't really see very well due to bad screenshot timing, but it's the part just past the red door.

Speaking of the red door, You really should have marked this door with red skulls, and a door texture. I shouldn't have to locate the red door using the automap.

Also I found an out-of-place texture

I also think it's kinda weird and inconsistent that a lot of areas were kinda plain... well not plain because you retextured them appropriately, but compared to this area where you made sector for the really fine things like the buttons on the computers, and the wires behind the machines, which were kinda unnecessary compared to the rest of the room such as the walls an ceilings which look kinda bare.

I'm gonna play through it one more time to see if there is anything i missed.

[Solarn]

NiGHTMARE said:

It's entirely possible to make a Boom-compatible Doom 1 .wad that adds new monsters, without replacing those which already exist in Doom 1. All you need to do is utilise the Doom 2 monster frames in the accompanying .bex patch.

I was under the impression that you could only replace existing things with a DeHackEd patch. Sure, it may not be a monster that gets replaced, but what do you want to bet somebody's going to use that one thing in their map?

[The Green Herring]

At the moment, not much progress on COMCON.WAD, yet.

Also, I won't be available for the next two days due to visiting relatives. Work will resume on Thursday.

[Mr. Freeze]

JohnnyRancid said:

I really think you should post your map up for playtesting purposes before you consider it finally completed because I have a few gripes with it.

Just so you know, I'm being nitpicky on purpose. I haven't played the original version of this map, and I believe it's fair that for a tune-up challenge, that I review your map as if you made it entirely yourself. They behaved like this for Claustrophobia 1024 and wad was nearly flawless because of it.

One big thing i want to point out is that I was flat-out of ammo at this point. You can't really see very well due to bad screenshot timing, but it's the part just past the red door.

Speaking of the red door, You really should have marked this door with red skulls, and a door texture. I shouldn't have to locate the red door using the automap.

Also I found an out-of-place texture

I also think it's kinda weird and inconsistent that a lot of areas were kinda plain... well not plain because you retextured them appropriately, but compared to this area where you made sector for the really fine things like the buttons on the computers, and the wires behind the machines, which were kinda unnecessary compared to the rest of the room such as the walls an ceilings which look kinda bare.

I'm gonna play through it one more time to see if there is anything i missed.

No problem, bro. I'm not gonna flip out at ya for finding some things wrong. I'll fix that texture, add more ammo, and mark that door.

As for detail, I thought that the room looked a little too crowded with additional detail beyond what you see in the .wad. I can maybe add a thing or two, but anything beyond that screams to me "Look at me!" I might add supports in the corners, though. Thanks for your constructive criticism!

[Snarboo]

I fixed the small problem with the texture pack and have reuploaded it. I also found a few more bugs in my map, the most recent version of which can be found here.

[Snarboo]

@Mr. Freeze: I tested out your map with PrBoom, and it looks good so far. I have a few minor crits, namely what Johnny mentioned, but also that in Boom, all sprites are infinitely tall, even hanging actors. You will need to move the hanging corpse in front of the Red Door somewhere else as it blocks your movement.

Also, I think you should change the METAL doors to a more appropriate door texture. I think there are a few good wood doors that would fit well.

@printz: I haven't tested your map yet, but I would appreciate it if you bundled it with the the original map and its text file in a zip.

Edit:
I just tested your map in PrBoom, printz, and it looks good, but there are a few improvements you could make. Namely, the exit is still in the sewers, which is rather confusing. If you could mark the exit door with an exit sign and possibly make it a colored key door, I think that would help. I'll keep playing it and posting suggestions later.

[printz]

Snarboo said:

Edit:
I just tested your map in PrBoom, printz, and it looks good, but there are a few improvements you could make. Namely, the exit is still in the sewers, which is rather confusing. If you could mark the exit door with an exit sign and possibly make it a colored key door, I think that would help. I'll keep playing it and posting suggestions later.

Well, actually it's not finished. I only did the yard part, and it's still in works. You can see how the south half of the level is still fullbright, reliant on secrets, with a dead-end there... I just posted a weekly report. But any notice is useful, and I might just consider using a locked exitdoor, because they are pretty.