1994 tune-up challenge (*updated /idgames link*)

[Super Jamie]

Pie by walter confalonieri

The original of this is so retarded it isn't even funny. Brilliant job on making a featurelesss room of Cyberdemons into an interesting, fun and clever puzzle level. As with your last map, your precise standard of detail is stunning and (almost) flawless. Funny homage to the Cybie wads too :)

I was able to climb up here. Not a major concern, just odd.


I'd put a clip or two out here, incase the player has run their ammo out by the time they get to the shoot switch.


I got stuck in these, one behind the other:


This crusher SHAWN texture is pegged wrong, it appears to "roll down" from the ceiling like a curtain.


You could change the texture on these bars if you wanted. No big deal.


Put a clip up here too.


This guy managed to escape telefragging, as did a whole bunch on the other side of the start area. Their teleporter lines do not have destination sector tags (eg: Tag 33).


I also managed to not trigger the Archvile teleport on one of my runs. I'm not sure why? Perhaps making one of Essel's foolproof teleporters would help?

Amazing and impressive mapping here.

[Super Jamie]

Hades House of Horrors Part Two by lareman

This file is missing, does anyone have a copy?

wetwrkd2 by rf

This is most definitely tuned up to modern standards, excellent job improving the battles and scenery, especially the hell part, that was awesome.

I found I had to backtrack the whole level and scrounge around for ammo before I could defeat the Cyberdemon which was a bit of a flowbreaker. I didn't berserk of chainsaw anything, so that's probably why.

I thought these two battles could have been a bit harder. Everything just comes from the front and it's easy to sit back and rely on infighting then clean up what's left.


The chaingunner here is facing away from the player when he opens the door.


This guy appears stuck?


Doortracks unpegged.


Brilliant work. I loved playing this map!

[Super Jamie]

Undersea by Dragonsbrethren

Visually this is very nice. The start room looks a little plain but after that it becomes great. The original author seems to have changed his theming every room, so excellent job bringing a solid sense of location to this map and fixing up all the stupid little passages which nerf alot of the monsters.

Gameplay wise I felt this left a bit to be desired. There's way too much health around. In places the original was harder because of the smaller spaces to dodge. Feel free to make it a bit tougher and make use of more varied Doom 2 enemies.

I thought these spine doortracks don't really suit, the graphic cuts off and seems like you just forgot to use a proper texture.


Also I thought the use of Arachnos and Mancs in this area was silly, they're so big they can't really move around much and pose very little threat to the player. Something more mobile like Revenants would prove more challenging. The switch to lower the circuitboard barriers could be a little more obvious, I walked around for a while before I noticed it.

Overall, a good tuneup with nice modern detail.

[Super Jamie]

Xenomorph by GreyGhost

This one feels like it's been started then kinda not finished. The room in front of the player is quite good, there's some attractive sector lighting and the green rail thing plus the trim around the walls makes a good difference. From there, there were alot of textures similar to the original with only a few basic sector improvements and alot of misalignments and incorrect peggings carried over from the original author. Battles are the same as far as I can tell, one area that could definitely do with some livening up.

What you've done so far is nice, keep going on this one :)

[MajorRawne]

Regarding the updated Undersea, I couldn't find one of the keys. Loved the eyes peering through the walls. First played the original back in the late 90s, what a blast from the past.

[traversd]

Super Jamie - If you haven't run through TECHBASE just yet. hold-off a few days. I've got an update coming which has a re-worked exit (x2) and (I think) a bit more polish to the gameplay.

Travers

[MajorRawne]

I re-uploaded my map:

http://files.drdteam.org/index.php/files/get/ADDqw1wvQ5/rawnwood.zip

The map is not fully playable yet as I've spent 3 days working like someone who has no life to get certain areas fixed. So a couple of areas are empty, the red key maze hasn't been touched, and the difficulty level on UV is quite high. Ideally I just want feedback about how it's going, any textures I misaligned or need to change, ideas to vary the look of certain areas etc.

I was starting to run out of ideas for the second third of the map (through the blue door) so I simply swapped the floor and ceiling textures used throughout the rest of the map, and I think this makes a subtle difference.

BEFORE


AFTER

[GreyGhost]

Super Jamie said:

Xenomorph by GreyGhost

This one feels like it's been started then kinda not finished.

It's a work-in-progress and was submitted in that sorry state in order to beat the deadline. The next update or two should look progressively more interesting, after which I'll work on the gameplay.

[Deeforce]

Don't forget to tune up this wad: http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=15306

[Super Jamie]

Will do travers. Looking great Rawne!

GreyGhost said:

It's a work-in-progress and was submitted in that sorry state in order to beat the deadline. The next update or two should look progressively more interesting, after which I'll work on the gameplay.

Cool cool :) What you've done so far is great. If the entire map was to the standard of that first area with the rails and the lights, you'd definitely be on a winner!

Deeforce said:

Don't forget to tune up this wad: http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=15306

The author does not appeared to have specified permissions either way, I think it was decided we assume he does not want his map to be used as the basis of another.

[Super Jamie]

Command Control by maggot202

Another absolutely beautiful tuneup. Your level of detail is amazing. I'd love to see the IWAD levels re-done to this standard.

This area was strangely bare, with a misalignment on the bricks. Not finished here yet?


Misalignment just after the blue key door.


A bit more fanfare for the Red Key wouldn't go astray. This whole area inside the Blue Key door felt kinda bare compared to the high standard of detailing the rest of the map has.


Two close-range Shotgunners in a closet trap was quite brutal without armor. Perhaps revise?


You can see through these from the back.


I got HOMs in here with the Revenant.


I didn't get all secrets but I did have these monsters left, preventing max kills. I don't see any way to kill the Arch Vile or the Imps in the south-east. Teleporters with Tags 49 and 50 have no destination, Tag 48 didn't work for some reason and I think Tag 90 didn't work cos I was standing on the destination at the time (if so, Essel's scrolling foolproof teleporters can fix that)


Probably the biggest issue for me was the Yellow Key teleport didn't actually work. I checked in DB to see how it's sposed to function and I'm not quite sure why it breaks?

As I played I thought a little bit of armor wouldn't go astray. Due to the nonlinear nature of the map you can get quite far without armor and it kinda sucks to take two lucky hits and die.

One thing I liked better in the original was how the pickups around crates were a bit easier to get. Namely the extras at the start, and the chaingun. The way you've set them up, there can be a bit of tedious retrying involved if the player misses a pickup.

Couple of issues but extremely good mapping. Top work!

[Super Jamie]

Brian and Craig Sparks Map 3 by Solarn

I am guessing this is another one still in progress? I can see there's work been done and alot of the silly broken flow and "features" the original author left in have been improved, however it still has a way to go.

If I could make some suggestions based on the current version, the outdoor area with the red rock is just begging to be made into a scary hell cavern with bloodfalls and all bodies hanging and fire and stuff. I'm unable to get through the trees at all, those Things could do with scrapping anyway.

The downstairs area is so dark it's impossible to see anything. That encounter could be made alot more scary with a bit more brightness and some deaf monsters hidden amongst pillars.

I know you can make beautiful precise maps with a great sense of location, I've played them, so I'm looking forward to seeing that usual Solarn level of quality put into this map :) Keep at it man.

[Super Jamie]

Vampire 5 by Malinku

I'm guessing this one's also not quite complete? There's a fair bit of original structure left and well as masses of unaligned STARTANs. What you've done so far is very nice, especially around the entrance and with the variation in lighting you've used.

Don't forget to make these window lines Impassible so corpses can't fly up into them.


To give some further suggestions:
- The rooms with the circuit walls could do with a little variation. I'm reminded very much of the Red Key maze on E2M6 by the way they are now.
- Perhaps skip the lite-amps, I think the flashing-light part is alot scarier without them. That being said, I'd hide the Red Key in less of a maze, as that's annoying in the dark.
- What was the original author smoking with all these ridiculous teleport lines? Feel free to make a bit more sense of them or just remove them altogether.

Given the good quality of your improvements so far, I'm looking forward to seeing where you go with this one.

[Snarboo]

Man, you are a machine Jamie! Given how fast you're testing these, I might hold off compiling the main wad together so people can focus on their individual maps without having to dig through a large wad to find them.

[maggot202]

I had forgotten that i still needed to work on comcon (those last rooms were mapped in an extremely unpolished hauling-ass mapping mode, as you can probably see). I'll get to it today.
Oh, and not all monsters are meant to be killed, there are some that were captured by the UAC and put into special cages that are impossible to get out from. They're for scientific studies, you know, not for target practice... and i felt they added to the scenery.

[Super Jamie]

That's all available/finished maps tested. I'll keep watching for the ones that are left. I have had so much fun seeing the fruits of this project, most of these levels are amazing to both look at and play. Well done to all of you!

I grabbed all files just to keep a backup and found both HHH downloads have vanished. Mr Freeze didn't reply to my PM but I got a possibly old version of Sweet off Krispavera so I'll test that soon.

Also 40oz doesn't have time to update Ultima but he said it was cool if I did, I'm almost done so I'll submit that over the weekend.

maggot202 said:

Oh, and not all monsters are meant to be killed

They certainly do add to the scenery, I was sure you were going to spring a nasty Archvile trap on me :P Actually I forgot to mention the exit battle could be a little harder if you wanted. Maybe a good use for him there?

You could add a linedef as the player enters the exit battle room, the line activates crushers and kills them? Some people worry about max kills, I'm not fussed either way :)

[maggot202]

Super Jamie said:

They certainly do add to the scenery, I was sure you were going to spring a nasty Archvile trap on me :P Actually I forgot to mention the exit battle could be a little harder if you wanted. Maybe a good use for him there?

Not a bad idea, my friend, not a bad idea at all. I'd have to give the player some more fighting room then (as i strongly dislike "slaughter" style maps), and make some pillars for our hero to cover from those nasty flames. I like it.

[printz]

Super Jamie said:

Also 40oz doesn't have time to update Ultima but he said it was cool if I did, I'm almost done so I'll submit that over the weekend.

You'll have to put your name there too.

[MajorRawne]

I'm about to submit the "finished" version of my map, which will be my first completed contribution to the world of Doom mapping.

What are we going to do about the 6 unfilled map slots? We can't release a 26-map megawad. I volunteer to work on a second map if there is time, though I can't guarantee I would produce something brilliant in less than 2 weeks.

[GreyGhost]

Twenty maps or more is considered a megawad, though 32 would be nice.

I've nearly finished aligning and pegging (a task not made any easier by almost every sector having heights and light levels that are multiples of ten!), added deep water effects in a couple of rooms (colormaps are cool), remodelled the elevators, converted the room with the grand staircase into a small lecture hall (seats 36) and added the maps first secret. Next stops are the fire escape, one or two partially destroyed sections and fiddling with the lighting - then I'll post an update.

[MajorRawne]

Right, here is Woodhalls 2010. Original: 67.7kb. Mine: 551kb. Heh.

There are 4 problems that I noticed, and they are all mentioned in the text file. They're beyond my ability to fix with my current knowledge so please tell me how to fix them. The worst problem is no music in Boom even though it works properly in ZDoom. This map is simply more enjoyable in ZDoom, although it looks much sharper in Boom.

The text in the accompanying text file is all over the place - I don't know how to keep the text in line.

That said, the level *should* be doable at all difficulty levels, and should prove interesting to those who like to explore! I look very forward to SuperJamie's assessment :)

http://files.drdteam.org/index.php/files/get/w2ipHg4RCA/rawnwood.zip

[traversd]

GreyGhost said:

I've nearly finished aligning and pegging (a task not made any easier by almost every sector having heights and light levels that are multiples of ten!)

TECHBASE had that... 100 this, 150 that. One of the first things I tuned-up ;o)

Travers

[Super Jamie]

Woodhalls by MajorRawne

For someone who has just started mapping and learning about Doom WAD format, you're definitely off to a good start here dude. You've livened up the original battles alot and some of the new detail is very attractive.

I did feel there were some walls that could do with a bit more work, mostly these are just big flat expanses left over from the original design. I like the quality of the new areas you've added yourself much more than the old areas you've re-vamped, if that makes sense?

There were a few places where textures were a little messy and/or clashing, like wood butted up against bricks with no border, or misalignments.

The battles were a good challenge with a few exceptions. The two Pain Ellies in the "library" can really sap your ammo, I have to hang back and use the doorway as a funnel to take the Lost Souls out with the chainsaw. If a bunch of LSs gather in front of that entrance and PEs come behind them and start spewing more LSs, you may as well give up. Maybe use Cacos there instead?

The lift at the Blue Key is one thing I'd be looking at changing. Because of all the Mancs upstairs (both on your side and the opposite side) you basically have to go up, get a quick shot off and jump back down which is kinda tedious. I probably wouldn't use Mancs upstairs here. Groups of Imps would be a nice challenge, as they're still a non-homing projectile enemy, but they're also dispatched easily enough that you don't need to retreat and there's not so much of a penalty if one hits you while you're focusing on another.

Probably the biggest drama is that I can't actually finish the map in PrBoom due to a few incorrect tags and closely-placed linedefs which is easy fixed :) I'm guessing you use ZDoom for testing? It's a bit more forgiving than Boom, which doesn't do what you want, only what you tell it! I'll cover that below.

The top and bottom of this windowsill need to be set Upper Unpegged and Lower Unpegged, so they match with the wall next to them.


This staircase I wasn't much a fan of, it's very high so it's difficult to see the top and very straight so it's kinda boring.


You mention this in your txt, this hanging body here is a "blocking" type. There's no way to fix this, you just have to use one of the other hanging bodies which isn't blocking. Doom Builder tells you which is which in the Thing selection dialog.


The door on this secret isn't pegged properly, so it appears to "roll up" like a curtain.


I'd try and think of another way to do this. A bunch of switches all clustered together which do things you can't see is a bit confusing for players. You may as well make their actions all one switch or spread the switches out and put them in places where it's easier for the player to know what they just did. Usually this means making the effects of the switch visual, or at least very obvious once they move from where the switch is.


You also mention that switch doesn't work. You'll notice the switch which does work is an "S1 Floor Lower" which has a tag and sectors which are tagged the same. The switch which doesn't work is type "D1 Door Open" which is meant for a door, not a switch. The sector it's tagged to is also raised up to the roof, so I'm guessing you want to make that switch "S1 Floor Lower" as well.

Here's a couple of examples of messy texture usage. The bricks don't really suit the wood next to them. Whilst everything in Doom is just a flat wall with a texture wallpapered on, you have to imagine the walls made of the materials the textures represent. Builders in real life wouldn't just mortar a plank of wood onto the end of some bricks, the structure would fall apart fairly quickly. In Doom, a good way to break these up is with a bordering texture like SUPPORT3 or a thin strip of METAL or something. You've done this in other places so I know you get the concept, just watch for clashing materials elsewhere.


These bars could do with aligning from the inside:


And up there is the area where you get stuck. The switch at Tag 7 is too close to the Door on Linedef 8, so the Boom engine thinks you are still trying to open the door when you are really trying to flick the switch. Fix this by moving the Tag 7 barrier back a little. I haven't tested beyond that.

Also your monster teleporters do not work as intended. Have a look at Essel's Mapping Tips thread (it's linked in the first post of this project) which will show you how to make scrolling foolproof teleporters. I use them all over UAC Ultra so you can see them in action there if their usage is a little confusing from just forum graphics. Essel's thread there has some great tips on making texture usage "realistic" as well, give it a read.


I hope I'm not being too down on you here. Doom format's old and shitty and confusing in places so for a first attempt this is great. You've obviously got a fairly good grasp on mapping and your own creations are both attractive and have your own unique style about them which is good to see. A few mistakes need fixing here and there but you're definitely a talented mapper and on the right track. I'd love to see this map perfected a bit more.

Don't forget to break up those big long flat walls with some detailing :)

[MajorRawne]

Hi SuperJamie, thank you very much for the feedback, you came up with things I never even considered like the bars on the Mancubus loft being out of alignment due to the wooden decorations I added to the walls of the main hallway.

One major problem I had was over-complication: the map had the beginnings of a good adventure but it was incredibly boring to look at and there were several areas which simply had no function. I re-textured absolutely the entire map from wood3 and wood5 (the wood5 in particular was used to horrible effect) to wood1 which is probably why the whole thing took me so long. I don't recognise the shot with green walls directly attached to wood but I'll find them.

I am not entirely sure what unpegging does although I know you need them on doortracks and I found that they can be used for texture alignment purposes in some cases. Maybe some areas of the map were too tall; I left nearly all sector heights untouched to avoid runing the Mancubus lofts.

I had a lot of problems with the Mancs on UV and even HMP and I am going to change the way the lift dumps you straight into their arms. I'll make it so you run down a corridor and emerge beside the Mancs so you can duck into and out of the corridor taking pot shots.

I used Boom and ZDoom pretty much equally but due to the huge number of hours I put into the map and its high difficulty level I haven't had a complete run-through of my own yet, I wanted a fresh pair of eyes to go through it and look for stuff that was invisible to me. There are quite a few blank walls towards the end of the map and that's where I became physically exhausted with building and re-texturing, but that will be addressed.

Finally, the high number of Pain Elementals was due to me wanting to use monsters we don't normally see while avoiding the ones that are in every map, hence the complete lack of shotgunners and only two Revenants in the entire map. I'll add some more ammo to deal with the Pain Ellies. Also there is more than one rocket launcher in the level
so depending on when you find them the map may be slightly less draining on ammo.

Hopefully Woodhalls 2010 proves that a map can be hard without Revenant or Chaingunner spamming :)

Ah well, to work once more!

[Super Jamie]

Cool cool man. I can see you've put a lot of work into what you've done so far and like I said, some areas are definitely looking great!

A map certainly can be hard without Rev and Chaingunner spam, it's always good when people want to do something different than a common theme and your variety of battles is worlds apart from the original.

The green bricks was the Hell Knight closet in the library.

Pegging simply refers to where the engine draws the texture from. As you'll see with the window I screenshotted, unpegging the upper and lower textures makes the engine draw them from the roof and floor respectively, which as you said makes alignment alot easier. I'm sure there's probably a way all textures are drawn so you can figure out what to unpeg and what not to, but I just keep an eye out for errors in Doom Builder 3D mode and fix them as I go :P

Good idea on the ammo though don't add too much in. Your ammo supply is actually really precise at the moment. There's enough to take care of everything, and players are rewarded just enough for using the chainsaw on the usual suspects (Demons, close-range Cacos and lone Imps). It's at a very enjoyable balance.

Good luck and keep at it :)



Snarboo, here's the final version of 40oz' Ultima:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4597916/ULTIMA-tuneup-20100523.wad
I don't really think it's necessary to credit me, I just aligned textures and made a door light blink. It's not really my creative talent on display here.

[MajorRawne]

Yeah the chainsaw was a late addition that I placed in an easy secret, thinking people might enjoy saving some ammo while inflicting ruinous death!

I've done only a couple of edits to the final 3rd of the map (the blue area) and I'm having a quick break from mapping for the weekend. Proper burned out after putting about 30 hours into the map this week.

[MajorRawne]

Ok - I kept the switch room because I really like it and it's something I've always wanted to build, cos I like complexity (although I won't be making another level THIS complex any time soon).

What I did was add visual indicators to show which switch does what. So when you hit each switch, bars added to the switch room now raise or lower just like the equivalent sectors elsewhere in the map. I've added coloured strips to all sectors which are affected by the switches in this room. Not only is it now more obvious what does what, the presence of a minor secret is now hinted at, and the map looks prettier as well!

More ammo was added at intervals and I replaced a Pain Ellie with up to 3 Lost Souls depending on difficulty.

As for the linedefs being too close to one another I've done some renovation, plus instead of catching a lift up to the Manc loft, it now takes you to a teleporter room with a small safe area where you can catch a breather, then assault the Mancs by making pop-out attacks.

I could write a book about the making of this wad. However long the original author took, I have probably now spent twice as long revamping it, more than 60 hours!

[Super Jamie]

Sounds good, can't wait to see :)

I forgot to mention before, the switch for the Soulsphere secret is the wrong type too. It's a D1 instead of S1.

You may also wish to raise the roof on the staircase to that switch, as the player can easily hit their head and get caught on it. With stairs, usually it's better to lower the floor as steps, but leave the roof at the top height until you get to a landing or the exit to the stairwell.

[MajorRawne]

EUREKA! I wondered why that bastard door wouldn't open. The number of linedefs for each type of action is boggling and they are not always grouped together in a way that I can quickly find what I want, but I'm learning :D

PS Apologies to the other mappers for hijacking this thread!

[Malinku]

Super Jamie said:

Vampire 5 by Malinku

I'm guessing this one's also not quite complete? There's a fair bit of original structure left and well as masses of unaligned STARTANs. What you've done so far is very nice, especially around the entrance and with the variation in lighting you've used.

Don't forget to make these window lines Impassible so corpses can't fly up into them.


To give some further suggestions:
- The rooms with the circuit walls could do with a little variation. I'm reminded very much of the Red Key maze on E2M6 by the way they are now.
- Perhaps skip the lite-amps, I think the flashing-light part is alot scarier without them. That being said, I'd hide the Red Key in less of a maze, as that's annoying in the dark.
- What was the original author smoking with all these ridiculous teleport lines? Feel free to make a bit more sense of them or just remove them altogether.

Given the good quality of your improvements so far, I'm looking forward to seeing where you go with this one.

yea my map is not very complete. I was thinking of removing the random teleport squares but have not gotten to it yet.
The circuit room is what I'm going to work on next.

and did the stairs in the secret area fully raise or do they stop at the first corner?