1994 tune-up challenge (updated /idgames link)

traversd · August 2, 2011

dew said:
holy haiti, batman! map15 is voodoo doll hell.
so i explore every nook and cranny, find all secrets, arrive at the secret exit and 32 monsters are missing. they didn't teleport in, because they hadn't been activated. the same situation viewed from the automap to appreciate the weirdness. all teleport linedefs are ready, noclipping into those closets wakes the monsters and they happily teleport. the longer closets did their job partially, but some of the cacos didn't wake.

i tried to untangle the riddle, but i ran into a huge mess of redundancies and safety measures and got lost in them very soon. the voodoo doll "processor" is an elaborate contraption and i'm not sure i want to study it for 4 hours straight. :) although everything seems to be activated, so could it be that sound just doesn't propagate to those monsters? if anyone wishes to have a look, here's my savegame for glboom+ 2.5.1.2test and RC2.

nah its just as you say at the end. the sector that channels sound is broken. I've gone back through the releases and it was first broken in the April release :o/ sorry. I haven't done a full play-through of that map for awhile and cant remember why I would've been mucking with that setup around that time anyway *L*

dew said:
unrelated graphical glitch right next to the secret exit[/url].

This is wierd. I'll check it out in zdoom and prboom as it is supposed to be aligned just as you start the map by a voodoo script.

dew said:
also there are some goodies in sector 1030, however there's no way to access that area.

You can access this. You jump through the grating from sector #1273.

Travers

Phobus · August 2, 2011

dew said:
map16:
i also ran from the cybies and only returned later with plasma. that's kinda fine by me. the exit trap didn't bother me, because i went in with a near full stack. i suspect i'd be more pissed if i went there with 50% health and green armor, heh. it's not hard to distract the vile with manco fire, but corrosive floor brings mind clouding panic. perhaps moving that soulsphere somewhere nearer player's teleport destination would make it less stressful?
also please do something with the teleporter to the blue armor secret, like some lighting as a hint. if i took the left hole, i'd probably never come back to try the right one.

The right hand hole does have a glowing light as I remember it, which is the hint.

Your situation with the exit trap mirrors my own - I usually go in there pretty well stacked, which is why I was alright ot leave it as is.

Snarboo said:
Map 16 has had a rad suit added to the manc/vile room, a few stimpacks added near the teleporter, and another pillar added for cover. I honestly didn't have too many issues with this room, but I thought I would try and make it easier on people going into the map blind.

I think the radsuit may be taking things a bit far, but the other pillar and some extra health makes sense. Personally I'd have put a medikit or two in the room where you teleport from, or removed the arch-vile to balance things a bit. As before though, we'll see what people think. If they like it, then we're all good :)

dew · August 2, 2011

traversd said:
You can access this. You jump through the grating from sector #1273.

my bad then, sorry for false alarm.

i haven't found any problems with maps 20 and 21. map20 seems like very clean job and the map feels nothing like 1994. map21 is intriguing, because the spirit of the early days is still there in enemy placement and mazeish design and whatnot, but it's also slick and pimped up... this is probably the embodiment of what i expected from this megawad, heh.

map22:
this map is stunning. it's absolute joy to play it despite occassional cramped design. i can't recall a better take on the medieval castle theme in doom. :) walter has a knack for massive levels, but some of his previous maps were too empty and underwhelming, like he just got bored halfway through filling them... well, this is almost overstacked. sometiems the detail and architecture make it awkward to move, but i loved how it looked and how it played and how well it was thought out. for example when the cybie followed me inside the castle and started marching in the slime bridge area, that was such an ohsnap moment. and the village.. when i saw it in the distance i was like "i wanna go there even if i have to idclip" and then i was like yessssss, even though it's so simple. :) and the boom effects in the satanic parts were very well done.
anyways, a few bugs and suggestions:
- the green armor secret behind a G1 door... huh. it never occured to me i should shoot a regular looking door, tbh. i recommend an inconspicuous G1 switch that has to be sniped from the upper floor, for example.
- the tag 85 bars leading to the rampart... there's no clue given what lowers these bars. it depends on a BK-locked switch sequence, so how about dropping a hint next to the bars? like a blue stripe or a blue banner, just something.
- sector 947 forms a tiny step which makes it very hard to trigger linedef 4743. that means YK is there for taking without triggering the trap. i suggest moving the action linedef on the throne itself.
- cyberdemon thing 615 has no flags set, which makes the trip to the village less eventful than it should be. :)
- certain areas are quite interesting to visit, but they're totally empty. how about rewarding curious explorers with little things? for example sector 2515 could have a berserk pack and the countryside... i don't know, a pool of flasks or helmets on the far side where it ends in a cliff?

edit:
map23:
quite a tough map. anyways, after getting RK, one has to walk around the whole map. what if the upper grate (linedef 3932) was also red door, so one could drop down just where he needs to go?

map24:
sector 268 is inconveniently shaped and it is possible to jump over it without triggering the secret effect. both sectors 269 or 270 would be more appropriate choice.
the room with the teleport back to start area should be separated with a block sound line. one of the lines around door sector 233, perhaps? the sargeants inside roam around the room and teleport away. people maxing the level might not be happy having to go back just because of stragglers.
the final room with the cyberdemon could use some impassible lines just to be sure no one (heh) gets the stupid idea to rocketjump into the inescapable blood pools. this way it's also possible to get around the cybie trigger and fall into his pit. :)

negke · August 2, 2011

Map04: wood ceil texture on some doors where brown metal would be more appropriate.
Map05: damaging non-slime sector in the YK area, where the medkit and rockets are.

Jodwin · August 2, 2011

Phobus said:
Your situation with the exit trap mirrors my own - I usually go in there pretty well stacked, which is why I was alright ot leave it as is.

Well, there really are a few different issues with that trap. :) First of all, it's completely unexpected (a sudden teleport to Hell in an exit room?). That by itself is fine, but the welcoming committee, so to speak, really is brutal when you don't know that anything is going to happen. Also as said in my previous post, there's some luck involved with monster behaviour (about every other time I had the arch-vile attack right away, completely avoiding infighting as it was behind the mancs and causing me to take that unavoidable 80 damage blast).

Phobus said:
I think the radsuit may be taking things a bit far, but the other pillar and some extra health makes sense. Personally I'd have put a medikit or two in the room where you teleport from, or removed the arch-vile to balance things a bit. As before though, we'll see what people think. If they like it, then we're all good :)

To get more constructive, I do agree that adding a radsuit might be too much (you could at most add a radsuit secret just before the teleport), the damaging floor itself isn't bad, it's only bad in combination with a lot of other things going on there. :) Simply removing the arch-vile would make the trap much more tolerable, while still keeping it deadly as three mancs in a relatively small room with little cover are no push over, but not too deadly, as you can still manage those mancs with practiced dodging.

However I'd still recommend removing one of the cybers; it's the first time we see cybers (I think), and then there's suddenly two in a pretty small area. It's not as much a matter of whether it's possible to kill them, but whether it's fun or not, and my subjective opinion is that there's nothing fun about it. :)

ps. I'll try to play as many of these maps as I have time for, but I'll be leaving on a two week trip on Saturday. So if you're in hurry to get the wad released there's no need to wait for the rest of my reports since I certainly can't go through all of the maps I've got left by Saturday. ;)

tatsurd-cacocaco · August 2, 2011

I found a sky texture's bug in my map.

http://tatsurdcacocaco.ninja-web.net/94tu20bug.jpg

Traversd, please change tag 0 to tag 11 on linder 5676, 5677, 5678, or 5679. However, don't change all of the four lines. They have to have tag 0 and tag 11.

Phobus · August 2, 2011

Jodwin basically said:
Remove the Arch-Vile and the second Cyberdemon

I'd be happy with this as a solution.

Jodwin · August 2, 2011

Map18:
The ending fight could use a little more ammo. I had to go hunting for secrets and scrounging for left overs because I couldn't kill the cyber. I did have 160 cells, but no plasma. Maybe add a few rocket boxes under the chaingunner platforms?

Please remove this translucent line, that switch is already in a place hard enough to find, no need to make it completely obscure with the toxic fall (sector #843).

dew · August 3, 2011

map25:
wow, this was brutal. anyways, the ambush triggered by linedef 2509 is a bit weird. it's well hidden (didn't find it without editor), but it's not a secret, so i wasn't really looking for it and only noticed when monsters were still missing at the end. i'm not saying it's wrong, just that it's an odd metasecret. anyone feels the same?

map26:
another tough map, surprisingly long for such small size. i was quite unlucky, because a PE got into an infight in the main area, i didn't notice and went to clean something else. when i returned, the area was neatly covered in lost souls. :) the map has a few pimples, though.
- music. it sounds like trying to play on a pack of cats by pulling their tails.
- trees and stalagmites in a building? there's enough stuff even without them, imo. this sky glitch appears after the YK area transforms. sector 348, self-explanatory. HKs hiding in firemag, no clue how to fix that.
- i can't help it, those fireblu walls just look ugly. :p

map27:
some monster closets are showing on automap... (1), (2). this problem might actually affect a few more levels with the compmap artifact, but i forgot to pay attention to it.
zombies things 711 and 712 seem to be frozen and helpless, might be because their hitbox is caught in an impassible line. the same for imp thing 100.

map28:
uhm, is sector 55 bugged? i can't seem to find a way to reach that secret. there seems to be no way to activate tag 25. also this map kicked my ass very hard.

Snarboo · August 3, 2011

Fixes for the next version:

Map 16 has had two rad suits removed on higher difficulties, the arch vile removed, and one of cyberdemons in the courtyard removed. A rad suit has been added to a secret right before the teleporter on medium difficulty, a green armor in said secret on hard, as well as a stimpack and a few health bonuses near the teleporter on all difficulties. Also moved a stimpack on a lift near the start that was stuck in a wall. A minor mistexture has been fixed too. Let me know if these changes are good!
Map 18 has had more ammo added for the final fight. The transparent slime fall near sector 843 has been removed.
Map 20 has had linedef 5676 changed to reference sector tag 11.
Numerous texture clashes, misaligned textures and other issues in Map 21 have been fixed.
Map 22 has had a switch added near the green armor secret, while the green armor in another early secret has been swapped out for a box of ammo. A blue banner has been added near the bars tagged 85. The red key bars and the tag 85 bars have been merged into one sector. The linedef triggering the trap in the yellow key throne room has been moved before the throne itself. A berserk pack has been added to sector 2515 for those daring enough to explore the slime pit. The village cyberdemon has been tagged for all difficulties again. Finally, various items have been added to the country side for those players willing to explore: ammo and health in the village; armor and health bonuses; scattered ammo; a plasma rifle and ammo; a super shotgun; and green armor.
The grate above the red key room in Map 23 has been turned into a transparent door. You wouldn't believe how long it took me to figure out how to do this but it was worth it. :)

I've noticed that SLADE's internal node builder (ZDBSP) has introduced slime trails where there were none before. However, this will be fixed prior to release by running all the maps through an external node builder. Speaking of which, anyone know of a good node builder?

Tomorrow is my birthday, so I'm taking the day off. If you guys could hold off testing until Thursday, that would be appreciated. :)

Jodwin · August 3, 2011

Snarboo said:
I've noticed that SLADE's internal node builder (ZDBSP) has introduced slime trails where there were none before. However, this will be fixed prior to release by running all the maps through an external node builder. Speaking of which, anyone know of a good node builder?

Zennode is the best if the maps aren't too big, in which case only zdbsp works. However we're talking about really big maps here (+60k segs, and so forth). Just make sure Zennode is able to build blockmaps which Eternity requires to run the maps (if Zennode fails, you can build nodes in Zennode and then use zdbsp to create blockmaps while keeping Zennode nodes -> best possible results).

MegaDoomer · August 3, 2011

This can wait for tomorrow of course, but Map17 (or whatever map in "The Tunnels") needs much better attention to texture alignment, esp. the staircase areas. (Unless this has already been fixed and I didn't catch it.)

traversd · August 3, 2011

Jodwin said:
Hmm, solving this issue, there are few problems with those teleports:
Sector #924 has tag 234 which lowers floor to nearest floor. However this sector is the monster container with 128 ceiling and 0 floor, and the teleporting sector next to it also has 128 ceiling and 0 floor. Meaning that if the monsters woke up as intended they'd teleport as soon as possible. So the trigger here is bugged.

It looks odd in the editor but I have a number of sector states start in their final position and then change when the map starts depending on whether it is a coop/dm game or not. The example above starts even but in SP drops 128units straight away. I recall having to do this so that in DM areas are still accessible even when voodoo dolls are absent. (yeh I know, given the maps nature most likely not worth it) but also to open up some areas in coop and dm.

Jodwin said:
Line #8612, which triggers teleport sector #1763 can be skipped by running in Boom. You should add an other trigger line 2-4 units away from it to make sure the teleport gets triggered. Also, I'd suggest using a ceiling raising action instead of a door when the target sector really isn't a door. Same safeguard trick goes for line #5131 (yeah, these get really anally retentive, but at least I have the tendency to strafe run too fast when testing my own maps so that triggers get skipped, so I've made a habit of adding safeguards whenever possible :) ). (safeguards mostly only concern perfectly vertical and horizontal lines, diagonal and angled lines should be fine)

Thanks for this. I went and "angled" all the walk-over linedefs and will look to do this from now on.

Travers

traversd · August 3, 2011

Snarboo said:
The village cyberdemon has been tagged for all difficulties again.

Heh, sorry bout that one. I flat out couldnt see how to get out there (could have sworn F&R mode didnt help either) and since there were no items there either I "no skilled" it.

Snarboo said:
I've noticed that SLADE's internal node builder (ZDBSP) has introduced slime trails where there were none before. However, this will be fixed prior to release by running all the maps through an external node builder. Speaking of which, anyone know of a good node builder?

I used zennode (default settings) for the previous releases. Not sure if slime trails in some maps will be completely preventable. I suspect the one in map2's red-key hallway is a keeper unless we re-arrange some vertices?

Travers

Jodwin · August 3, 2011

Snarboo · August 4, 2011

I've fixed a majority of those misalignments and some others that I spotted while working on the map, but it seems I missed plenty more. Any chance you can take shots of the automap near the misalignments? It will help a lot in tracking them down.

Jodwin · August 4, 2011

Snarboo said:
I've fixed a majority of those misalignments and some others that I spotted while working on the map, but it seems I missed plenty more. Any chance you can take shots of the automap near the misalignments? It will help a lot in tracking them down.

Well I ran through the map taking screenshots like crazy. :P I probably missed a few, but here's some for you: http://www.akinomori.com/stuff/images/1994TUMap21/

Each screen shot of a misalignment is followed by a shot of the automap from that spot, for example the screenshot 02's automap shot is 03.

Fun fact: These screenshots took 435 MB space as bmps which prboom+ created.

negke · August 4, 2011

Map09: A texture alignment issue here on both sides (most pointless report, heh).
I liked the nonlinearity, but I ran around lost for quite some time because I had missed the button to lower the RK. Admittedly, I was being a bit blind there, but it still seems odd that it's located on a side wall and not the center of the long back wall. Possibly with some supports on each sides to make it more visible, as the key itself is can't be seen until it's lowered.
Is that hidden teleporter the only way to get up to the floor where the RYB door is? I thought the goal was to get rid of mandatory secret areas. Or did I just use the wrong 'right' path?
The button to exit the end arena seemed to open some 10 seconds too late which was somewhat confusing. Though it may be that I wasn't supposed to deal with the monsters that quickly (HMP).

traversd · August 4, 2011

neg!ke said:
Map09: A texture alignment issue here on both sides (most pointless report, heh).

If your referring to the gray5 railing then yeh, I'm not fussing over that too much, lots of it a bit skewif here'n'there in the level.
EDIT: ok, I fixed that one ;o)

neg!ke said:
I liked the nonlinearity, but I ran around lost for quite some time because I had missed the button to lower the RK. Admittedly, I was being a bit blind there, but it still seems odd that it's located on a side wall and not the center of the long back wall. Possibly with some supports on each sides to make it more visible, as the key itself is can't be seen until it's lowered.

fair point. I'll centre the switch and look to make the red-key visible.
EDIT: This look ok? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo5uzyuUrCI

neg!ke said:
Is that hidden teleporter the only way to get up to the floor where the RYB door is? I thought the goal was to get rid of mandatory secret areas. Or did I just use the wrong 'right' path?[/B]

The non-secret path is to get the red-key, then blue-key, access red-key door, access blue-key door, yellow-key, yellow-key gate, then the final RYB door. The 3-key door was made because of the secret allowing you to skip most of the level and exit really quickly (the original allowed this to occur).

neg!ke said:
The button to exit the end arena seemed to open some 10 seconds too late which was somewhat confusing. Though it may be that I wasn't supposed to deal with the monsters that quickly (HMP). [/B]

Yeh, I can shorten it's delay. I suppose if you flee the room on UV with monsters remaining they can fly over the wall to the exit room and still present a problem for the player.
EDIT: Originally it took 60s for the switch to open, that's now been reduced to ~43s. I also added some more ammo and removed the PEs from the map.

Travers

printz · August 4, 2011

dew said:
map26:
another tough map, surprisingly long for such small size. i was quite unlucky, because a PE got into an infight in the main area, i didn't notice and went to clean something else. when i returned, the area was neatly covered in lost souls. :) the map has a few pimples, though.

Oh no. Some of those bugs don't happen for me (I tested it using PrBoom+ 2.5.0.8 for OSX on Boom v2.01 compatibility mode.

- music. it sounds like trying to play on a pack of cats by pulling their tails.

It would be nice if those unoriginal "choir aahs" standing for Hetfield's voice be replaced with some "synth sawtooth" (like in D_E1M7) and pitched down one octave. Hopefully that would lower the "tortured cat" impression. Is there any utility that does minor modifications to MIDIs (instrument change, pitch change, key signature change) without side effects?

- trees and stalagmites in a building? there's enough stuff even without them, imo.

Dunno, I think they give a nice dirty Doom2/real life dusty look to the map. I'm not interested in removing and replacing them with something beautiful and detailed, sorry.

this sky glitch appears after the YK area transforms.

That's because the "sky transfer" linedef wasn't applied there. This needs to be fixed. Another buggy place is this (spoiler): http://imgur.com/l6XrN

sector 348, self-explanatory.

What? The misaligned flat is supposed to be dynamically fixed by a displacement scroller triggered by a linedef just outside the room, before you enter that room. Either you ran so fast you missed the trigger, or something doesn't work!

Here's how it looked in my test: http://imgur.com/ep9Zv

HKs hiding in firemag, no clue how to fix that.

That's intended, I wanted something to conceal them. I know it's not artistic, but I don't care. This map was never going to be beautiful, despite its name.

- i can't help it, those fireblu walls just look ugly. :p[/B]

Another "WTF". The area is supposed to become darker by that time, and the fireblus look better that way! Like here

dew · August 4, 2011

i thought simply removing the stalagmites would be enough, because there's enough decor already. :) or are they supposed to obscure player's vision on the upper floor?
and you are right, that fireblu wall really does look better in darker surroundings. i see the linedef for changing brightness around the house is first in line on the conveyor belt... perhaps the doll had built speed on the obstacle and when that lifted, the doll just jumped over the first linedef? is it sensible to create a redundancy or would triggering the action twice break the effect in another way?
by the way, you're also right about the teleporter flat, i jumped over that linedef. that's not very surprising though, i tend to move at sr40 speed whenever i can and the trigger is downstairs. i suggest you create an extra line for it just behind the door before the player starts descending.

printz · August 4, 2011

dew said:
i see the linedef for changing brightness around the house is first in line on the conveyor belt... perhaps the doll had built speed on the obstacle and when that lifted, the doll just jumped over the first linedef?

That shouldn't happen, unless I accidentally gave a speed to fast for the scroller. But it never happened to me. Maybe perhaps GlBoom is just too bright?

is it sensible to create a redundancy or would triggering the action twice break the effect in another way?

Yeah, I think that "neighboring light" linedefs are sensitive to misuse, especially in conservative ports like Eternity, resulting in accidental pitch darkness.

by the way, you're also right about the teleporter flat, i jumped over that linedef. that's not very surprising though, i tend to move at sr40 speed whenever i can and the trigger is downstairs. i suggest you create an extra line for it just behind the door before the player starts descending.

I forgot to place a trigger upstairs? Gotta check it out, then.

Jodwin · August 4, 2011

dew said:
map26:
sector 348, self-explanatory.

I'd add that I couldn't find my way into that room without cheating. Yeah, maybe I'm stupid, but in my opinion that counts as a mandatory secret.

printz · August 4, 2011

Sorry, I won't solve that problem. I have no problem with mandatory secrets that have hints.

Anyway, here's the fix: (look below for the latest!)

What I did:

- changed the HK firemag floor from a regular floor to a Boom elevator, so that Eternity or MBF with vanilla compatibility settings will be able to lower it
- yellowed the megaarmor or blur artifact secret. I think no-one except me could find it because it had no hint whatsoever, and is placed in quite a thin wall.
- added sky transfer triggers for the remaining sky sectors
- replaced all instruments (save the drums) of the music with something way more fitting, and lowered the voice-replacing instrument by one octave. I hope you get what I was trying to accomplish :) How to credit it: taken from metalica.wad (/idgames) and modified the instruments.

Snarboo · August 5, 2011

Fixes for the next version:

Jodwin and dew have been added to the credits text file.
The latest version of Map 14, Map 15, and Map 26 have been added to the wad file.
Changed the trigger for the secret rad suit in Map 16 to be slightly more difficult to find.
Fixed numerous texture misalignments and texture clashes in Map 21. Fun fact: this took me over 2 hours to fix. :/
The secret effect in Map 24 has been moved from sector 268 to 269. The lines in front of the door near sector 233 have been marked as sound blocking. The lines near the cyberdemon have been marked impassable.

negke · August 5, 2011

traversd:
EDIT: This look ok? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo5uzyuUrCI

Yeah, looks good and should do the trick.

Jodwin · August 5, 2011

Map27:
A few texture misalignments:
http://www.akinomori.com/stuff/images/map27_1.jpg
http://www.akinomori.com/stuff/images/map27_2.jpg
http://www.akinomori.com/stuff/images/map27_2_map.jpg
http://www.akinomori.com/stuff/images/map27_3.jpg
http://www.akinomori.com/stuff/images/map27_3_map.jpg

The blue door needs to get its doortraks unpegged
http://www.akinomori.com/stuff/images/map27_bluedoor.jpg
http://www.akinomori.com/stuff/images/map27_bluedoor_map.jpg

Map28:
Can't wait to see an UV-Max. I'm sure it's possible, I just don't have the patience to infight or tyson everything in this map. :P

printz · August 5, 2011

Snarboo said:
The latest version of Map 14, Map 15, and Map 26 have been added to the wad file.

Please hold on, looks like replacing the floor with an elevator has caused HOM to appear all over the place. I don't remember seeing it with the engine I used, but it happens with PrBoom+. I'll have to upload another fix. Fucking glitchy engine.

printz · August 5, 2011

Here's the update: http://www.mediafire.com/?zw4hji9tl0jamwx

Snarboo · August 6, 2011

I've recently switched over to a trackball, so it'll probably take me a day before I'm fully up to speed.

Fixes for the next version:

Fixed some minor issues in Map 6 and Map 8.
Added the latest version of Map 26 to the wad.

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1994 tune-up challenge (updated /idgames link)

Is this a good idea?
216 members have voted