1994 tune-up challenge (*updated /idgames link*)

[Super Jamie]

MAP15 - Castle To Hell - tatsurd-cacocaco

I am completely speechless at the improvement to this map. It's an incredibly huge, epic adventure and so much fun. Considering just how much work has been put into this, it's almost impossible to fault.

The gameplay is a good difficultly for keeping me on my toes, including a few enjoyable slaughter bits which made me move pretty fast. I love the Spider Mastermind at the end, one of the few good uses of that boss I've ever seen. I got a huge trail of Revenant rockets going and led them right into it :D

The only bit I thought was unfair was the 4x Chaingunner ambush when you hit the switch at Linedef 7299, very difficult to escape without prior knowledge and not really fitting with the rest of the level.


Considering the rest of the map's theme I thought concrete, radiation signs and a oozing vent (on the other side) seemed out of place here. Sector 93 and 1167.


I was lucky enough to have a shotgun fall in this crack (Sector 1300) and become inaccessible. I'd stupidly missed the SSG room on my first run so ammo was pretty tight. To fix, either widen the crack, or fill it (and other nearby decorative cracks) with a self-referencing sector to match the surrounding floor.


I was rocketing these Mancs off their pillars (Sector 1761 and 1762) and managed to get one to the edge where he got "stuck" and was harmless. You can see him here falling off the pillar. Suggest making the bounding lines of these sectors Block Monsters.


Misaligned GSTONE here. Linedef 10268 and 10343.

I can't begin to imagine how much time and effort has gone into this map, I couldn't make something this good even if I worked for a year straight. Awesome job!

[GreyGhost]

Super Jamie said:

Mr Freeze's MAP11 link doesn't work.

Probably expired due to inactivity. Here's a copy from my archives of what I think is the final version (5-Aug-09).

[pavera]

Thanks for the feedback, Jamie. Yeah some of those things are just stuff that I forgot to fix from the original map. I chose that face texture in the secret because I figured it would make somebody chuckle.

Yeah that outdoor area with the archvile and the barons with the bloodfall, etc. is my least favorite part of the map. I might just rip all the enemies out of there and create traps instead.

I originally had the cyberdemon walk out into the open area, and I'm not sure why I decided to keep him in there. Glad I had someone besides my doomblivious friends playtest it. :>

[Super Jamie]

Krispavera said:

Yeah that outdoor area with the archvile and the barons with the bloodfall, etc. is my least favorite part of the map. I might just rip all the enemies out of there and create traps instead.

Traps would not be a bad idea. The Barons could teleport or monster-closet into their area as the player crosses the open part of the U, putting danger both in front of and behind the player, as well as making a slightly height-varied battle.

Teleporting Imps and the Archvile outside would be a nice challenge too. There's not much cover to duck the Archie outside (especially if herding Imps). Maybe he would be better warping on top of the blood when the player picks up the Yellow Key, you'd then have to fight back to the teleporter whilst budgeting your dodge time between Imp fireballs and Archvile flames.

Happy to help man, you've done a rad job!

[Super Jamie]

MAP11 - Hades House of Horrors Part One - Mr. Freeze

Thanks GreyGhost for the link to this one.


This metal switch (Sector 380) has a stone top.


The textures on this teleporter (Sector 55) do not scroll evenly left/right and are not aligned. SUPPORT3 cuts off in the middle. The Pain Elemental here is pointless, he can't fire anything and there's only room for him to spawn one Lost Soul on death if he's lucky.


This is dumb.


Shotgun got lost down this decorative crack. Widen the crack to allow the player in, or make a self-referencing sector equal to the surrounding floor height so Things float at gettable level.


There is almost no alignment of SP_HOT1 in the exit room.

You can't actually finish the map as the exit door (Linedefs 166 and 245) are SR Door Open instead of DR Door Open.


When I first started this, I almost quit the level and double-checked I hadn't loaded the original. At first it seemed like you'd just gone through and fixed the basic things that were wrong with the map. Some parts are detailed very well (like the room in the first screenshot) but this is hardly "to modern standards":

Perhaps you have chosen to work more strictly to what the original author put down, but alot of these maps are expanding areas to make battles better and in some cases chopping the whole level to bits and improving it immensely. Maybe this is something you wish to address, maybe not.

[maggot202]

Well, that was a harsh review. Some of my thoughts.

Super Jamie said:

The textures on this teleporter (Sector 55) do not scroll evenly left/right and are not aligned. SUPPORT3 cuts off in the middle. The Pain Elemental here is pointless, he can't fire anything and there's only room for him to spawn one Lost Soul on death if he's lucky.

I, too, found weird the texture scrolling. I'd fix it. I don't know if you had bad (good?) luck or it was because i tested this map on gzdoom, but the pain elemental was able to throw me my fair share of lost souls, even spawning three of them when destroyed. The thing that bugged me on this place was the red torch, it blocked the player (not completely, but it was noticeable). I would either widen the corridor or remove the torch.

Super Jamie said:

This is dumb.

C'mon... a little LOL here and there never killed anyone.

Super Jamie said:

You can't actually finish the map as the exit door (Linedefs 166 and 245) are SR Door Open instead of DR Door Open.

Here i could open the door with no problem. I'm guessing it was because i tested it with gzdoom, so i had no problems with the shotgun issue you mentioned earlier. Maybe Mr. Freeze tested it with this same engine and not some boom branch?

Super Jamie said:
When I first started this, I almost quit the level and double-checked I hadn't loaded the original. At first it seemed like you'd just gone through and fixed the basic things that were wrong with the map. Some parts are detailed very well (like the room in the first screenshot) but this is hardly "to modern standards":

Perhaps you have chosen to work more strictly to what the original author put down, but alot of these maps are expanding areas to make battles better and in some cases chopping the whole level to bits and improving it immensely. Maybe this is something you wish to address, maybe not.

Sadly, i have to agree. This map looked a little plain to me. The map itself shows promise, but it needs more detailing. Maybe you need to play some more maps? Get inspired? (i'd suggest architecture masterpieces, like Zpack, ultimate simplicity, Ultimate torment and torture, and the such). Good luck partner, this may seem harsh, but try to look it in a bright light and get better at mapping. Give it another shot and give this project the best map remake ever.

[Super Mighty G]

Okay, here's what I hope to be the final version of my remake. I won't be doing any more detailing. If I keep going back to it I'll never finish it. So any more changes I have to make will be strictly bug related.

Download: http://www.mediafire.com/?hmmzmmmmmhm

Please let me know what you think, and comment on the secrets if you can.

[maggot202]

U.O.D. said:

Okay, here's what I hope to be the final version of my remake. I won't be doing any more detailing. If I keep going back to it I'll never finish it. So any more changes I have to make will be strictly bug related.

Download: http://www.mediafire.com/?hmmzmmmmmhm

Please let me know what you think, and comment on the secrets if you can.

Here are two linedefs that have weird textures:

Linedefs 3963 and 5800. Should be replaced by doortrak?

Linedef 3915. Also, may i suggest a better alignment of linedef 1106?

This is where i stopped playing, partly because it's late, and partly because i didn't know what to do (it was only via doom builder that i noticed the switch behind the nukage fall).

[Snarboo]

I've marked your map as ready for testing UOD. I'll be sure to test your map and maggot's soon.

[Super Jamie]

MAP32 - SUBWAY - UOD

This was really nice man. At first the style appears sensible though simplistic, however as the level progresses there is a lot of great precise detail and attractive lighting. Some parts such as the cacos rising out of the nukage look very impressive. The difficulty follows a good progression and gets pretty hard after a while. You've done a HUGE expansion compared to the original so I can only imagine how much time you've put into this. Well done!


This lift (Sector 318) is not immediately obvious as a lift. I wouldn't mention it except there's armor down there which you almost definitely want the player to pick up. Maybe something like SLIME15 or STEP2 would be a more appropriate floor flat?


I strangely couldn't pick up these shells. I tried thingbumping them and everything.


I got stuck here (Sector 853) and couldn't understand why. I'd definitely put a teleporter out of here so the player doesn't die frustrated. The room where the switch for this bridge is (Sector 390) is quite missable. You could swap the tags on Linedef 1320 and 4738, so you HAVE to go back to the switch room to enter the bridge, and the switch nearby actually raises the bridge. Maybe a better idea is to teleport the player say from Sector 1260 to Sector 101, so if they miss the switch at least won't be wandering round for ages wondering how the hell to get past that bit.

About the only other thing I thought odd was that you can shoot through the windows of the train, and other places where there are transparencies. This isn't exactly a bug so I assume you don't want to fix it, it's not really a big deal anyway. There are a few ways to make a blocking window in Boom if you feel like it, this is probably the best.

Again congratulations on a job well done, another impressive tuneup which does modern mappers proud.

[Snarboo]

Super Jamie said:

This lift (Sector 318) is not immediately obvious as a lift. I wouldn't mention it except there's armor down there which you almost definitely want the player to pick up. Maybe something like SLIME15 or STEP2 would be a more appropriate floor flat?

It might be enough to simply lower the lift's floor a little so it stands out as I noticed the lift's floor texture looks different than the surrounding hallway.

[tatsurd-cacocaco]

traversd and Super Jamie, thank you for much valuable reviews.
I will reflect some your opinions in the next version up.

[Mr. Freeze]

I'll send another link to HHH1 later today. Fucken mediafire.

[Super Mighty G]

Super Jamie said:

MAP32 - SUBWAY - UOD

This was really nice man. At first the style appears sensible though simplistic, however as the level progresses there is a lot of great precise detail and attractive lighting. Some parts such as the cacos rising out of the nukage look very impressive. The difficulty follows a good progression and gets pretty hard after a while. You've done a HUGE expansion compared to the original so I can only imagine how much time you've put into this. Well done!


This lift (Sector 318) is not immediately obvious as a lift. I wouldn't mention it except there's armor down there which you almost definitely want the player to pick up. Maybe something like SLIME15 or STEP2 would be a more appropriate floor flat?


I strangely couldn't pick up these shells. I tried thingbumping them and everything.


I got stuck here (Sector 853) and couldn't understand why. I'd definitely put a teleporter out of here so the player doesn't die frustrated. The room where the switch for this bridge is (Sector 390) is quite missable. You could swap the tags on Linedef 1320 and 4738, so you HAVE to go back to the switch room to enter the bridge, and the switch nearby actually raises the bridge. Maybe a better idea is to teleport the player say from Sector 1260 to Sector 101, so if they miss the switch at least won't be wandering round for ages wondering how the hell to get past that bit.

About the only other thing I thought odd was that you can shoot through the windows of the train, and other places where there are transparencies. This isn't exactly a bug so I assume you don't want to fix it, it's not really a big deal anyway. There are a few ways to make a blocking window in Boom if you feel like it, this is probably the best.

Again congratulations on a job well done, another impressive tuneup which does modern mappers proud.

Thank you for the comments. The first two things can be easily fixed. The important thing you mentioned is the switch that lifts the bridge.

My aim was to make the level non-linear. I thought by having the telepoter near the bridge crossing point that goes up to the top floor would be enough of a hint, but clearly it wasn't. I'll have to come up with something. It's difficult to find the balance between non-linearity and holding the player's hand.

As for the windows, I thought about making them bullet-proof but it looked a little awkward up close and I was too lazy to think of a better way. Also the sergeants being able to shoot at you from the subway cars was what I wanted. It's not realistic, yeah, but when has Doom been about realism, you know?

Again, thanks.

[Super Jamie]

U.O.D. said:

My aim was to make the level non-linear. I thought by having the telepoter near the bridge crossing point that goes up to the top floor would be enough of a hint, but clearly it wasn't. I'll have to come up with something. It's difficult to find the balance between non-linearity and holding the player's hand.

I did find the teleporter to upstairs (and loved the transparent slimefall back down) though it just seemed like a separate area to me. Where you teleport in, the ledge above seems inaccessible. Looking now I see I completely missed the ICKWALL lift at Sector 572. I think just changing Linedef 3016 to PLAT or SUPPORT would be enough of a hint.

I agree it is difficult. Playing these original old maps I see there is a huge difference between 94 level design which I assume emulates the IWAD style of meandering levels where you can easily pick a wrong route or skip 2/3rds of the floorplan on a speedrun, and modern design which tends to be mostly linear and "handholding" as you say. I wonder at what point authors lost that talent?

Cool about the train windows, gameplay over realism anyday :)

[Super Mighty G]

Super Jamie said:

I did find the teleporter to upstairs (and loved the transparent slimefall back down) though it just seemed like a separate area to me. Where you teleport in, the ledge above seems inaccessible. Looking now I see I completely missed the ICKWALL lift at Sector 572. I think just changing Linedef 3016 to PLAT or SUPPORT would be enough of a hint.

Oh, I'm glad you mentioned that. If making that lift more obvious would be enough that makes things easier.

[printz]

esselfortium said:

Or, better yet....a BEX patch could be included that makes cyberdemons and barons call A_KeenDeath on one of their death frames, and use a voodoo-doll setup (yay Boom!) to make that fast-door-open trigger cause the desired floor-lowering or whatever.

What's the consensus on this? A universal monster death switch would surely be useful for mappin'.

[Gez]

Super Jamie said:

<screenshot that reads: SHEL 50/50>

I strangely couldn't pick up these shells. I tried thingbumping them and everything.

Strangely, you said? :p

[Super Jamie]

Gez said:

Strangely, you said? :p

Hahaha, I am dumb.

[traversd]

Hi All,

Here is an update of td-Wille1m1.

http://t.underworldgamers.com/wp-content/uploads/td-wille1m11.zip

Just about spent I gotta say. I changed some of the gameplay mechanisms a bit in giving the map a boom make-over. I feel like I'm now traveling down the well beat path of learning Boom types by making possibly over complicated setups. I used my first voodoo doll script (origwad had voodoo's but only for items).

My biggest concern with the level was and is still the amount of brick9. I've added some additional brick1 and big brik plus some floor changes as well to hopefully make it ok. I guess if a building is gonna be made out of brick it'll usually be the one type *L* but still. I've set the sky to sky3 which also helps break up the brown theme a bit.

I did a heap of work/learning with transfer heights. I'm pretty happy with how it's come out too (the blood pools). It was a real headache to get it working with moving sectors.

I tested on glprboom+ and gzdoom.

I'm keen to see if my trick with the red key can be broken (ie: the player can get the red key before they really should).

I haven't done any further playtests on other maps. Will have to take a break for a week or so I think to catch up on other stuff.

Cheers,
-t

[Super Jamie]

MAP19 - WILLE1M1 - traversd
Absolutely awesome. I actually remember playing the original WILLE1M1 many years ago and being less than impressed at the basic design and stupidly difficult traps.

You've turned the level right around! It's visually stunning, I didn't think the bricks were too much as they're broken up with metals, lightsourcing and detailing very well. It actually reminded me of the Ropy levels, which are also rad.

The difficulty totally kicked my ass. The inescapable traps of the original are gone, replaced with the good sort of "easier said than done" encounters which saw me start using savegames after my third try at the red key room :P

The amount of Boom features you've used is impressive, the transfers, stairbuilding multiple times and how much the architecture changes throughout the course of the level without getting you stuck is particularly clever. I tried several times to get the Red Key early but couldn't. The only suggestions I can even think to make are:


I noticed you randomised alignment on many of the stairs in the map, but not these ones (they're the same lines viewed from a different angle) Linedef 2288 etc. I didn't even realise this during play, only walking around with Lite-Amps intentionally looking for mistakes or odd things that caught my eye.


The two Red Key doors (Sector 6 and Sector 70) should have CEIL5_2 for their instead of FLAT5_5.

I notice you've even balanced for difficulty and included Deathmatch starts, I can't help but think this would be a fun layout to play multiplayer on. Wonderful job dude, almost perfect.

[maggot202]

MAP19 - WILLE1M1 - traversd

While trying to reverse-engineer some of the cool tricks you pulled off in this map, i noticed two things:

Pic. This trick doesn't seem to work (prboom-plus v2.5.0.3).

It does work almost flawlessly in gzdoom (1.2.0), but only until an inquisitive player stands beneath the tricky sector and stares right up. This is what the player sees.

I'll let you know if i find other things while deconstructing your impressive work.

[maggot202]

Super Jamie said:

MAP14 - Melange - maggot202

Wow man! You've taken a very bare layout and made it look like absolutely stunning, most definitely given the gameplay a much needed boost too.

I agree the SSG would overpower the player way too much, good move taking that out. The Rocket Launcher is fine, though I would just stick to giving an individual Rocket with it instead of the Box of Rockets. The battles are not that difficult, you want it to be a slight help, not make the player practically invulnerable for the final encounter.

No visual errors found, though the Blue Door could be a little wider and the passage at Sector 386 a little shorter to increase the difficulty of that encounter. It's really easy to just sit at the end of the passage and snipe with the chaingun or shotgun.

Sector 464 and 465 are marked Secret and shouldn't be.

Thing 137 and 138 are a Rocket Launcher and Box of Rockets just sitting out in the void doing nothing :)

Another great tuneup, very well done!

I've uploaded a newer version of melange, taking into account what you've said. Also, i believe all windows are bullet-proofed now. There is also a new little surprise at the beggining :).
I believe that now i can say that this version is final.

[Snarboo]

Alright guys, a general update: I'm leaving tomorrow to Virginia to visit family until the 21st. I'm going to try and take a portable harddrive loaded with my iwads and the maps currently submitted. I can't make any promises that I will have time to test, but I will do my best.

[pavera]

After Jamie's playtest review of my tuneup, I've decided that the version on the front page is no longer going to be the final version. I wasn't totally satisfied with it before, but I didn't feel like sending in a new one.. but Jamie's kinda convinced me.

So I'll probably be uploading an updated version of my map within the next couple days.

[traversd]

Thanks SJ and Maggot202 for the comments.

Were the amounts of ammo and health Ok?

I've changed the two ceilings as pointed out and "randomed" the stair textures in most of the map.

I did see how glprboom+ rendered the overhead windows myself when testing which was disappointing but I think what I've done with the upper untextured linedef's should (I say should because I've only ran the map in glp and gzd) be the right "hack" to get what I was looking for (it just doesn't seem to render well in glp). I'll keep looking to see if I can fix it for that port? Jus thinking about it now the middle sector may need to be the ceiling tex, not a sky one.

In regards to looking up directly under the windows - I'm happy to let that one slide ;o)

I'm glad the boom stuff (red key and blood pools) worked as planned. In terms of getting something out of this map, besides the standard joy of mapping ;o) , learning and getting the boom stuff to work is a huge plus for me as I missed all the boom stuff back in the day.

At some point I'll post another update with the above changes and anything else that people might find. I've also updated td-ORIGWAD slightly and will post that in a couple of weeks. Like Snarboo I'm going away to see some family.

WTF is with roof racks seriously? *L* Every time I thought I was finished the "last" clasp or the "last" bolt would never fit and I have to rip'em off and start again! I finally got them on tonight after much consternation *L* And I've still got to install the cargo pod.

Cheers
-t

[Super Jamie]

traversd said:

Were the amounts of ammo and health Ok?

Playing on UV I thought so.

I found ammo to be spread out evenly enough that the player is forced to keep moving and sometimes forced to use a weapon they may not prefer for the situation, which added to the challenge in a positive way. The amount of rockets is just enough to keep that outdoor battle under control (though it did take me a few attempts) without being a nerf. I would actually say the ammo balance is devilishly perfect.

Health wise I went to 4% and back again during runs where I didn't die. With care it's possible to stay alive long enough to get enough health in the event you take a hit, and there's always the berserk and soulsphere. The times I did die I was easily surrounded by a trap (red key grab, outdoor area, etc) and would have perished even if the ground was plastered with medkits. No complaints.

And as I'm sure you know, in software mode the Addictiv-style fake-3D windows work fine. Somewhat ironic, as you can't actually see up there in PrBoom, and probably have no reason to look up there in ZDoom!

Also, purchase a larger car :)

[maggot202]

traversd said:

WTF is with roof racks seriously? *L* Every time I thought I was finished the "last" clasp or the "last" bolt would never fit and I have to rip'em off and start again! I finally got them on tonight after much consternation *L* And I've still got to install the cargo pod.

Cheers
-t

Nothing that a good amount of rope, duct tape and maybe some wire won't fix, partner :)

[Snarboo]

I'm posting to let you guys know that I extended my trip from the 21st of January to the 4th of February. I brought an external hard drive with me so I can install Doom and start testing again. I'm aiming to get started on the weekend, but it depends on how busy I am here.

[Walter confetti]

just a pair of pics of revamping pie-rmx:

http://img195.imageshack.us/i/doom03.png/
http://img8.imageshack.us/i/doom04.png/