1994 tune-up challenge (*updated /idgames link*)

[Phobus]

Triple Post, but for good reason:

Infinity Plus, RC1: http://www.phobus.servegame.com/doom/ph_v5mal_RC1.zip

Tested in ZDoom 2.5.0 in SP, Co-op and DM. Has all difficulty modes as well. I'm unaware of there being any bugs, so please do test and provide any feedback.

I've finally stopped stalling the project, woo! \o/

[Snarboo]

Awesome news, Phobus! Now to ask a mod/admin to edit the first post since it's been two year since the post was made.

[traversd]

Checking out the map now.

BTW did MajorRawne submit an update to MAP12?

-t

[Snarboo]

First post has now been updated with your submission, Phobus.

traversd said:

BTW did MajorRawne submit an update to MAP12?

I don't remember. It should have been but I'll run through the current release tomorrow.

[GreyGhost]

Snarboo said:

Now to ask a mod/admin to edit the first post since it's been two year since the post was made.

Two years already! Doesn't time fly when you're having fun. :)

Now that Phobus has given his map a name, I've updated the interpic graphic for it.


(300x180 - 54k)

@Phobus - if there's another part of the original map you think would look better in the interpic, let me know.

[traversd]

GreyGhost said:

Two years already! Doesn't time fly when you're having fun. :)

Now that Phobus has given his map a name, I've updated the interpic graphic for it.


(300x180 - 54k)

@Phobus - if there's another part of the original map you think would look better in the interpic, let me know.

I reckon it looks sweet Greyghost. I have downloaded for inclusion in the master file.

[Phobus]

That's easily the best looking part of the original map and quite recognisable in my version too.

traversd and I are currently having some back-and-forth tweaking my map for an RC2, I'm just going to check out what he's done and get back to him on it.

[Fletcher`]

So whose idea was it to change the warning symbol on the texture BRNPOIS? It managed to mess up a couple walls where the patch itself is now 'underwater'.

[Snarboo]

rf` said:

So whose idea was it to change the warning symbol on the texture BRNPOIS? It managed to mess up a couple walls where the patch itself is now 'underwater'.

It was mine. You'll notice that most of the Ultimate Doom textures are from Freedoom. This was a reasonable compromise after the issue of including all of UD's textures in the wad was raised. I also modified the Freedoom BRNPOIS patch very slightly.

Can you take some screenshots of the problem areas you have noticed? It would go a long towards helping resolve this problem.

[Fletcher`]

Wasn't Esselfortium working on replacements for the doom1 textures? The freedoom textures are terrible and clash with doom2's textures.

[Snarboo]

He was at one time but I never followed him up on it. I can always contact him.

[Phobus]

Right, traversd and I are now finished getting my map as good as we can, so he should be getting it to Snarboo as a final version sooner or later, and then everybody can have at it and see what they think. Think its going in as MAP16.

[Snarboo]

After two years in development, the first Release Candidate for the 1994 Tune-up Challenge has been released! As always, there are probably bugs still to be found, but this a huge step in getting this puppy on /idgames.

[printz]

What's the /idgames boilerplate name going to be like? TUNEUP.ZIP? 1994TU.ZIP?

[traversd]

printz said:

1994TU.ZIP?

I would go with this.

[Phobus]

Going into MAP02 on ZDoom, my brother discovered that the Intermission name graphic was missing for that map.

EDIT: Apparantly its for every map he's played. I'll see about checking this out myself at some point.

[tatsurd-cacocaco]

Nice works, guys!

However, I thought some things.
First, there aren't custom music in map 1, 3, 4. Maps which have no custom music follow in early stages. It seem to lack the impact. It also includes the reason why some original music don't fit a map very much. Certainly custom music are optional for authors, but they can't expect what slot their map were placed.

Secondly, I made outland for ep1 maps. If it can't be moved to episode 1, I want to change the sky (the transfer the sky). Can I do it?

Finally, traversd's WILLE1M1 also seem to be for ep1, though it is a hard map. I recommend to set custom music, change the sky, or move to ep1. Even if bug hunt or something move to the later maps, it might be no problem.

They are only my opinions.

[Memfis]

I certainly agree that first maps need custom music. At least change D_RUNNIN, nobody likes it.

[Snarboo]

tatsurd-cacocaco said:

First, there aren't custom music in map 1, 3, 4. Maps which have no custom music follow in early stages. It seem to lack the impact. It also includes the reason why some original music don't fit a map very much.

I definitely agree custom music would be more fitting. I doubt the authors would mind if custom music was used, even if it's taken from one of the Doom IWADs.

Secondly, I made outland for ep1 maps. If it can't be moved to episode 1, I want to change the sky (the transfer the sky). Can I do it?

If you would like to edit your map, you may, but traversd would probably be willing to do it, too.

Finally, traversd's WILLE1M1 also seem to be for ep1, though it is a hard map. I recommend to set custom music, change the sky, or move to ep1. Even if bug hunt or something move to the later maps, it might be no problem.

I'll leave this up to traversd since it's his map.

[Fletcher`]

I honestly thought I made a title for my map. I'm going to have to think of something other than wetwrkd2, because that's just retarded. :P

[traversd]

Phobus said:

Going into MAP02 on ZDoom, my brother discovered that the Intermission name graphic was missing for that map.

EDIT: Apparantly its for every map he's played. I'll see about checking this out myself at some point.

It's quite possible I broke this or missed something. Greyghost is the projects 'expert' on this so I'll ask him to make sure it's working as intended.

EDIT: this has made me realise I haven't updated the DEHACKED lump for automap names :/ sorry. Will fix for final release.

Travers

[traversd]

tatsurd-cacocaco said:

Nice works, guys!

However, I thought some things.
First, there aren't custom music in map 1, 3, 4. Maps which have no custom music follow in early stages. It seem to lack the impact. It also includes the reason why some original music don't fit a map very much. Certainly custom music are optional for authors, but they can't expect what slot their map were placed.

Secondly, I made outland for ep1 maps. If it can't be moved to episode 1, I want to change the sky (the transfer the sky). Can I do it?

Finally, traversd's WILLE1M1 also seem to be for ep1, though it is a hard map. I recommend to set custom music, change the sky, or move to ep1. Even if bug hunt or something move to the later maps, it might be no problem.

They are only my opinions.

Good points re: music Tatsurd-Cacocaco.

Anyone know if there is nice "doomy" music tracks on idgames that allow "re-use"? I'm not too familiar with all this. D_RUNNIN is the soundtrack to my life. Personally I do want to put some different music for map31 as the wolf3d music needs to go ;)

RE:Outland. I can change the sky for you mate if you want. Just let me know what texture to use. If it was moved, which slot do you think it would suit? (see list below)

RE: map progression. I'm happy to look at changing slots etc where possible. I should explain how/why I've come to the current setup.

Because all the maps in general were made in isolation and generally speaking were not made to suit any particular slot I managed to pair them down into small sub groups (so ignoring the std doom2 episode flow of techbases, earth/cities, hell a bit). As it currently stands I've got everything grouped first by difficulty, and then by theme (as best as I could). So basically progression moves to and from hell over the course of the whole map-list but in groups of maps. The last 9 maps all had very hellish themes which worked well. Here is the map list and how I'm seeing theme(major theme/minor theme) and difficulty currently:

MAP01: SWEET.WAD (techbase, easy)
MAP02: TTADOM11.WAD (techbase, easy)
MAP03: VIPER.WAD (techbase, easy)
MAP04: HHH-21.WAD (techbase/hell, easy)
MAP05: BCS01.WAD (techbase, easy)
MAP06: HHH-22.WAD (hell/techbase, easy)
MAP07: EXECUTE.WAD (hell, med)
MAP08: HELIPAD.WAD (techbase, med)
MAP09: XENO11.WAD (techbase, med)
MAP10: MELANGE.WAD (techbase, med)
MAP11: ELEMENTS.WAD (hell, med)
MAP12: WOODHAL2.WAD (hell, med)
MAP13: BCS03.WAD (hell, med)
MAP14: COMCON.WAD (techbase, med)
MAP15: TECHBASE.WAD (techbase, med)
MAP16: VAMPIR5.WAD (techbase, med)
MAP17: TUNNEL11.WAD (techbase, med)
MAP18: SUBWAY.WAD (techbase, med)
MAP19: UNDERSEA.WAD (techbase, med)
MAP20: OUTLAND.WAD (techbase, med)
MAP21: ULTIMA.WAD (hell, hard)
MAP22: NEFCAT.WAD (hell, hard)
MAP23: WILLE1M1.WAD (hell, hard)
MAP24: FORTCSTL.WAD (hell, hard)
MAP25: FORTBORG.WAD (hell, hard)
MAP26: ABDITN.WAD (city/hell, v.hard)
MAP27: WETWRKD2.WAD (hell&techbase split pretty even I think, v.hard)
MAP28: ICENITE2.WAD (hell, v.hard)
MAP29: HELLCAST.WAD (hell, v.hard)
MAP30: PUREEVIL.WAD (hell, hard/v.hard)
MAP31: ORIGWAD.PWD (techbase, med)
MAP32: PIE.WAD (techbase/hell, hard)

ORIGWAD and PIE were originally made to suit the secret slots so once we got a full 32 compliment Snarboo and I decided to move PIE back to slot 32.

WILLE1M1 could move down the order to say slot 14 (maps 11-13 are hellish so it would suit there). I would then move map 14 (currently comcon) to map16 and push everything up the list to fill the gap at slot 23. I guess the question is, as you say, is it too hard for slot 14? Yeh it's my map, but I'm not too fussed where it lands per se. I'm just looking to make the map set as flowing/coherent as possible ;o)

TC's OUTLAND could possibly swap places with another of the techbase maps grouped from map14 through to its slot map20. But again, the difficulty is a concern I think.

Thanks for the feedback TC. Have a think about OUTLAND and let me know.

Travers

[traversd]

traversd said:

MAP15: I had to make the 2nd exit hard to find, you should try and find it in the original *L*

I meant to update this post the other week as I thought it an interesting/funny note to the map's development (ie:probably not interesting to anyone at all other than myself);)

The original TECHBASE.WAD has 2 exits although it's arguablly not on purpose. A seemingly random linedef has type 11 (S1-exit) about halfway through the maps progression. The original author may have put this in whilst working on the map and forgot to remove it... hard to say.

When I saw this quirk I noticed there wasn't any specific map15 candidate at the time so looked to keep this "feature" in the map. Plus I'd never made a map with a secret exit before and this seemed like a solid reason *L*

The entrance to the secret exit is in the same location as the linedef was in the original map.

Travers

[GreyGhost]

Phobus said:

Going into MAP02 on ZDoom, my brother discovered that the Intermission name graphic was missing for that map.

EDIT: Apparantly its for every map he's played. I'll see about checking this out myself at some point.

If you mean the lack of ENTERING "Mapname" graphics - that's deliberate. The mapname graphics weren't behaving as expected in that situation, so I decided to hide them until a solution could be found.


EDIT - I think I've solved that problem (sometimes all that's needed is to prod me with a sharp stick) and all going well I'll upload a patch later tonight.

[tatsurd-cacocaco]

Thanks for your opinions, traversd

It's not wrong, but dividing only two types (techbase and hell) is a little forcible. Some maps for ep3 aren't hellish maps strictly, but they are suitable for ep3 because these maps are huge, have many strong enemies, have ominous forms, and so on. However, your WILLE1M1 is a gothic map which have orthodox and real form. Certainly it is not techbase map, but it is difficult to say that it is a hellish map.

I think it is nearly impossible to integrate all maps well on a community project. Your WILLE1M1 is a hard map, but why is this map hard? This is because that there aren't enough strong weapons in the map, but this map doesn't have strong enemies. Yes, this is just a Doom 1 style map, and it's fun and nice. However, the balance will be collapsed if a player who has a rocket or a plasma with enough ammo (or a BFG) enters the map. Also, the situation would happen easily in a slot for ep3. As a result. this map is hard for only a pistol start. I can say the same thing to my OUTLAND. I narrowed enemies and weapons in the map. WILLE1M1 and OUTLAND are not easy maps, but I think they should move to the early slot.

By the way, I also notice a new thing. If you can miss a BFG in the map 7, you can get it until map 22 as far as I know.

[traversd]

tatsurd-cacocaco said:

Thanks for your opinions, traversd

It's not wrong, but dividing only two types (techbase and hell) is a little forcible. Some maps for ep3 aren't hellish maps strictly, but they are suitable for ep3 because these maps are huge, have many strong enemies, have ominous forms, and so on. However, your WILLE1M1 is a gothic map which have orthodox and real form. Certainly it is not techbase map, but it is difficult to say that it is a hellish map.

Exactly right. In a broad sense the themes were largely techbase (as you say more orthodox and structured) and hellish (abstract in form) with some slight deviations.

I think it is nearly impossible to integrate all maps well on a community project. Your WILLE1M1 is a hard map, but why is this map hard? This is because that there aren't enough strong weapons in the map, but this map doesn't have strong enemies. Yes, this is just a Doom 1 style map, and it's fun and nice. However, the balance will be collapsed if a player who has a rocket or a plasma with enough ammo (or a BFG) enters the map. Also, the situation would happen easily in a slot for ep3. As a result. this map is hard for only a pistol start. I can say the same thing to my OUTLAND. I narrowed enemies and weapons in the map. WILLE1M1 and OUTLAND are not easy maps, but I think they should move to the early slot.

Do you think WILLE1M1 to MAP14 and OUTLAND to MAP16 would work? MAP15 is a lock and techbase style so it as least forms the start of a techbase group (at present it is 2nd in the group to MAP14). I would then essentially move everything up in the order to fill the gaps of MAP20 and MAP23. If needed I can still implement the sky transfer for you.

By the way, I also notice a new thing. If you can miss a BFG in the map 7, you can get it until map 22 as far as I know.

yeh, I guess another result of the maps developed in isolation. Not a bad thing, just happened that way. I had a look and (unless I'm mistaken about NETCAT.WAD at map22) the BFG is only collectible on maps 7, 25, 27, 28 & 30 (I must admit I thought map29 had one!). So the mapset is pretty BFG-less overall. I guess that probably raises the question, should it be in MAP07? I put it there as a bit of a gift for finding the secret. Happy to remove it if it makes sense. Looking at all the maps through they don't appear to need a BFG so adding it into a few maps would probably be to the detriment of the map progression perhaps?

So.. a semi-formal feedback form for those watching the thread ;o)

1. Remove BFG from MAP07? [yes]/[no]
2. Move MAP23 to MAP14, move MAP20 to MAP16, move everything else bar MAP15 up the order? [yes]/[no] (this might not be needed if we remove the BFG?)

Thanks again for the feedback Tatsurd-Cacocaco. big help mate :)

Travers

PS great news Greyghost.

[traversd]

The above post had made me question NEFCAT.WAD's north-east section (outside the castle). Can it be reached by the player? If not then there is a cyberdemon that is not able to be killed (it is sitting in a teleport chamber awaiting the player to trigger it's release in the same north-east area).

Travers

[GreyGhost]

Try this - I've added a script (ENTER) and graphic (ENTERING*) to handle the ENTERING "Mapname" screen and updated the MAPINFO lump, which is back in sync with the mapname graphics. It's been tested with G/ZDoom and Skulltag but not extensively, so let me know if any problems are encountered.


* a renamed WIENTER lump which scales to match the intermission screen.

[tatsurd-cacocaco]

traversd said:

Do you think WILLE1M1 to MAP14 and OUTLAND to MAP16 would work? MAP15 is a lock and techbase style so it as least forms the start of a techbase group (at present it is 2nd in the group to MAP14). I would then essentially move everything up in the order to fill the gaps of MAP20 and MAP23. If needed I can still implement the sky transfer for you.

The idea is much better than now, though I think they should be placed to around map 8 - 11. Actually, I made BCS03 for a harder map than OUTLAND. Moving XENO11 to 2nd techbase group seems to be not bad.

traversd said:

yeh, I guess another result of the maps developed in isolation. Not a bad thing, just happened that way. I had a look and (unless I'm mistaken about NETCAT.WAD at map22) the BFG is only collectible on maps 7, 25, 27, 28 & 30 (I must admit I thought map29 had one!). So the mapset is pretty BFG-less overall. I guess that probably raises the question, should it be in MAP07? I put it there as a bit of a gift for finding the secret. Happy to remove it if it makes sense. Looking at all the maps through they don't appear to need a BFG so adding it into a few maps would probably be to the detriment of the map progression perhaps?

IMO, you should remove BFG from map 7. Like I said, the existence of BFG will break the balance on WILLE1M1 or OUTLAND, but it will not the balance breaker on maps which have many strong enemies, like some maps for the later ep2 or maps for ep3. It is not so bad to place in one or two maps for the later ep2, but it is also not so bad to keep the feature (the mapset is pretty BFG-less overal). If you add BFG on a few maps, the BFG should not be hidden to secrets but be too plain for a player to miss it.

traversd said:

If needed I can still implement the sky transfer for you.

Thanks, but I will also fix a bug for coop. I will update it soon. Excluding it, My maps probably don't have any bugs. A cause of a bug for coop is mainly a closing trap or a W1/S1/G1 system. We mush check carefully.


Finally, they are only my opinion, and I entrust the final decision to you. Thank you for listening to my babble.

[Snarboo]

traversd said:

1. Remove BFG from MAP07?

The maps were intended to be played from a pistol start, so I'm not sure how I feel about this one. However, given that the maps are meant to flow together and how early it appears in the wad, I'll leave this up to you.

2. Move MAP23 to MAP14, move MAP20 to MAP16, move everything else bar MAP15 up the order?

Having just played through these maps on UV, I don't like the suggested change in map order.

However, I feel Map 14 and Map 20 are interchangeable. They are similar in terms of difficulty and theme, with Map 14 being slightly more hellish. Map 16 and Map 23 feel appropriate for their slots, honestly.