1994 tune-up challenge (*updated /idgames link*)

[betabox]

Megamur said:

Heck, I love playing `94 maps, and I'll be the first to say that a lot of them are just insufferable. I don't see what's wrong with the text file admitting the obvious.

Isn't the term of <<'94 maps>> generally associated with today's levels that have enough of the flaws often seen in maps from 1994? And if that's so, I think you mean you like old, vanilla maps (ones that are good, of course).

[Grazza]

What the term means seems to vary greatly depending on how stupid the person using it happens to be.

[Megamur]

buttspit said:

Isn't the term of <<'94 maps>> generally associated with today's levels that have enough of the flaws often seen in maps from 1994? And if that's so, I think you mean you like old, vanilla maps (ones that are good, of course).

When I say "`94 maps," I literally mean "maps created in 1994." I honestly do play maps with `94 timestamps on a regular basis, and a lot of them really do suck. However, I can't help but be charmed by their crudeness and pioneer spirit. And it's exciting to find the occasional diamond in the rough.

[betabox]

Grazza said:

What the term means seems to vary greatly depending on how stupid the person using it happens to be.

That's not a good thing when it comes to a LOT of people :P (myself excluded)

[TimeOfDeath666]

Well, maybe I took the opening line in the description too seriously. I never considered it as a stereotype.

If this wad helps more people play oldschool maps, then that's cool with me. Except it's kinda weird, cuz if the only way they'd play oldschool maps is if they have modern looks, then they still won't play oldschool maps. :)

[Megamur]

I'm not sure if anyone noticed or mentioned it before, but it seems you can become permanently trapped in Map06.

If you fall off the collapsing staircase before lowering all the stairs (leaving the sector 13 stair attached to sector 14), then raise the platforms in sectors 16 & 17, then fall into the southern part of the sludge pool, that's...pretty much it for the map. You can still press on the side of sector 14 to get it to lower, but with the stairs in the way, the opening is too small to actually climb onto it. I could find no way back up and had to NOCLIP may way back onto the main path. The original map had tunnels connected to the the sludge pool that allowed you to escape, which are inexplicably gone now. A bit sad to see that the original `94 map took more care to not leave the player stranded than the remake.

[Snarboo]

I thought that at first, too, Megamur, but it turns out the platform in the center of the acid pool is a lift. It could have been telegraphed better but it's there.

Edit: Oh I see what you're saying now. I originally considered putting teleporters in the map but I decided against it when I discovered the lift. I'll probably fix that then reupload the wad sometime this week.

Edit 2: I fixed that issue as well as including a small fix that traversd made for Map 9. The updated file should be out sometime this week.

[j4rio]

You can also get stuck in map 15.

here, demo
http://www.mediafire.com/?s1ncre6365p7x0d

[tatsurd-cacocaco]

Snarboo, my demos in the wad will be desync if you change maps or nodebuilder (map5, 9, and 15), so I have to record them again. Please send me the update version in PM or something before release. It is very important what version it is on multiplay and recording demos. Frequent updates only confuse users. The next version therefore should be the final version.

[Snarboo]

Can do, tatsurd!

Edit: If anyone else finds a bug that prevents progress, post it ASAP! I want to keep post release updates to a minimum.

[traversd]

j4rio said:

You can also get stuck in map 15.

here, demo
http://www.mediafire.com/?s1ncre6365p7x0d

*L*

Thanks j4rio. I got a bit of a chuckle out of that. I've had a look and why it's doing that is not overly apparent. I would have thought that if the side trim sectors did not lower then neither would the middle one. It seems you need to time everything just right on the "up" action so perhaps it's got something to do with sector number ordering?

Would you begrudge me if I said "well played, just you wait till next time"... and left it as is?

;o)

Travers

[maggot202]

Wow, so it's finally done :)
Congratulations to everyone who worked on this, it was a great effort, and i'm proud to be a part of it.
Cheers guys, i owe you a beer, if we ever meet :D

[Snarboo]

An update on the patch: I've decided to hold off unless more issues come in. While getting stuck on Map 6 is bad, I don't want to rush the update out without thinking things through, only for more problems to come in at the last minute.

[Megamur]

Might as well wait and see if I bump into anything else in my playthrough. :)

[Megamur]

Also possible to get permanently stuck on Map32, in the spiderdemon room. The sector 1462 & 1471 crates will stop you dead in your tracks if you drop down to the floor in the middle of them, pinning you against sectors 1555 & 1556. Not that it's a huge problem--with all the mega-baddies in the room, you'll likely be dead pretty soon--but it is a bit annoying. Could've been intentional, for all I know.

[Snarboo]

Alright, that issue has been fixed for the next version. I'll wait for a few more issues to come in before I reupload the project.

[damerell]

traversd said of WOODHAL2 / RAWNWOOD:
I did this because the first room feels very "sitting duck/ambush" in it's layout but originally, as you say, the player can run straight through the room and pick them off later on.

In fact the original intention was that a clever player could run straight through the room where less clever players would stick around and get themselves tied up in knots; as such I was a bit taken aback when that was entirely turned on its head by not letting the player out until the monsters on the ledge are dead.

It is nice to see the old place get a lick of paint... although I confess, even if I had known then what I know now, I wouldn't have done everything you have done.

If you're curious (assuming MajorRawne is reading this) as to what the entirely pointless run through three doors beyond the maze was all about, I planned to build an area beyond that and, er, didn't.

I certainly don't object to anyone describing my 1994 map as "terrible". I don't like a lot of modern WAD design and, looking back, that first/second map of mine was still pretty bad. Back then I think we were mostly impressed that we could design Doom levels _at all_.

[Phobus]

damerell said:

Back then I think we were mostly impressed that we could design Doom levels _at all_.

This probably sums up the first 10 years of my Doom modding experience.

[hex11]

damerell said:

I certainly don't object to anyone describing my 1994 map as "terrible". I don't like a lot of modern WAD design and, looking back, that first/second map of mine was still pretty bad. Back then I think we were mostly impressed that we could design Doom levels _at all_.

A lot of modern map design is overdone. It reminds me a bit of the changes in tone between AD&D 1e and 2e: no longer were people content with having just a dungeon with some cool rooms to run around in and only a skimpy excuse of background to go adventuring. They now expected sophisticated plot arcs, detailed NPCs, realistic dungeon ecologies and all that jazz. In the 1e days we were content just to roll some dice, order pizza, go down in dungeons designed by mad archwizards and slay foul monsters.

[MajorRawne]

Hi everyone, wow, I'm glad this is finally "done". I am doing the review for /Newstuff.

I'll post more detailed thoughts about the wad as I play through the maps and trust me, I'm going to be kind about any mistakes I find; I've already spotted a number of things in Rawnwood which I should have taken responsibility to fix, not left to someone else.

Rawnwood became such a huge project and I was spending hours every day on it, watching Youtube tutorials for Doom Builder 2, cursing XWE for apparently not saving new sky and wall textures into my wad, and generally trying to make things look right. I made it way too complicated for a noob such as myself.

Then I got Losered for some back seat modding and was in the Loser section for so long I just lost interest in Doomworld, then Doom altogether. (2 weeks for a newbie in desperate need of mapping assistance is a killer - just wanted to put that out there.)

I then got a job where I work stupid hours, so I don't often get long stretches of time to work on my maps.

I'd definitely like to amend some of the errors in Rawnwood but I will need a pretty patient and knowledgeable guide if anyone wants to help. I know Traversd put a lot of effort into amending this map so maybe he can help me?

For future mapping projects I will also need some help with XWE for inserting new monsters, textures and music. Can someone recommend a good Javascript guide as well, since I want to program in-game messages and interactive computers, that kind of thing. (Or at least point me to some maps which feature these things so I can examine them in Doom Builder.)

[printz]

I don't really agree with you being reviewer, considering you DID contribute a map to it.

I really prefer someone from the outside doing a harsh, neutral and objective review coming out of the chronicles that Doomworld is well known (and feared) for.

[Gez]

MajorRawne said:

For future mapping projects I will also need some help with XWE

Here.

MajorRawne said:

Can someone recommend a good Javascript guide as well, since I want to program in-game messages and interactive computers, that kind of thing.

I'm afraid I can't think of any available Doom map with javascript code in it. Maybe in the future it will exist.

[GreyGhost]

MajorRawne said:

Can someone recommend a good Javascript guide as well, since I want to program in-game messages and interactive computers, that kind of thing.

Welcome back. Unless Maes is working on a scripting system for Mocha Doom that I haven't heard about - I'd suggest you read up on DECORATE and ACS.

I agree with printz, it's not a good idea to review your own work.

[damerell]

MajorRawne said:

Rawnwood became such a huge project and I was spending hours every day on it, watching Youtube tutorials for Doom Builder 2, cursing XWE for apparently not saving new sky and wall textures into my wad, and generally trying to make things look right. I made it way too complicated for a noob such as myself.

It sounds like you spent a lot more time on it than I ever did. Which I suppose is sort of the point, isn't it? :-)

[MajorRawne]

Wow... hello Damerell, thanks for making Woodhalls, never thought I'd actually speak to someone who mapped in 1994! Hopefully you think I've done some kind of justice to your map, at least in spirit if not in execution :)

GreyGhost and Gez - am reading up on those things now, haven't used Slade yet but have installed it. Thanks for the tips. Yes it's ACS I need, not Java.

[Gez]

GreyGhost said:

Welcome back. Unless Maes is working on a scripting system for Mocha Doom that I haven't heard about

JavaScript has no relation to Java other than "Java" was very trendy at the time so "JavaScript" was a better buzzword than "ECMAScript" which is the actual official name of the thing.

And if anything, it's Eternity Engine that would let you javascript your maps eventually. (Quasar's Aeon scripting system is based on a JS VM.)

[damerell]

MajorRawne said:

Wow... hello Damerell, thanks for making Woodhalls, never thought I'd actually speak to someone who mapped in 1994! Hopefully you think I've done some kind of justice to your map, at least in spirit if not in execution :)

Unless I'm greatly mistaken, I'm the only original author who's posted to this thread. :-)

I wrote a little above. I'm mostly just glad someone thought it was worth dragging it out and dusting it off. What you've done isn't entirely what I'd do, but then, we're different people.

Particularly I was pleased you preserved much of the sense of coming back repeatedly and slightly unexpectedly to the central hall to find another door opened. I think that was something that worked well in the original.

[MajorRawne]

Damerell, I've often wondered where the map's original author would be now and if he still remembered his map or even thought about Doom. I have actually had your map since about 2001 when I bought a Doom editor CD which came with a thousand custom levels. Yours was one of the only ones that stuck in my memory. So it's kind of weird to be speaking to you now. If you're interested, the disc was called "The Ultimate Add-On".

As far as the direction of the map goes, I'm sort of disappointed that you and I have different visions, but in a way it's cool; two men separated by time and geography, taking the same map in totally different directions. That's the grand spirit this megawad has captured, and I think there needs to be a follow-up. Anyone else up for a 94TU wad, or a 95TU one?

Maybe you could submit a Woodhalls 3 as a bonus level - the only contribution from an original author? Now THAT would be something special.

[Snarboo]

MajorRawne said:

That's the grand spirit this megawad has captured, and I think there needs to be a follow-up. Anyone else up for a 94TU wad, or a 95TU one?

I've been kicking around ideas for a potential sequel project in my head. Nothing set in stone, but so far my ideas should alleviate some of the "growing pains" this project had.

However, while I appreciate your enthusiasm, Rawne, I would prefer you not review this project for /newstuff. I agree with printz and GreyGhost on this: there's a conflict of interest here since you submitted a map for this project, and I believe anyone reviewing this should be as unbiased as possible.

Ninja Edit:
I'm glad to see someone who created one of the original maps posting in this thread! I never thought anyone from that time would still be around in the Doom community today, and it's interesting hearing your impressions, damerell. :)

[RjY]

A handful of small issues in the version in /idgames, even though it's probably far too late for bug reports

map02:
• The map tries to lock you into the final room by closing sector 190. However it is easy to run back out under it as it closes, and there's no way to reopen it. I suggest making it close faster.

map12:
• In software mode the railings along linedefs 3157, 3173 etc. (on both sides) sink into the floor.

map32:
• There is an extra secret sector 1634 in the floor of the main secret sector 1657. It's not difficult to run over it accidentally and still get 100% secrets, but still.

map17:
• Walking over linedef 760 does a sector special transfer and turns sector 135 into an extra secret.
• A chaingunner in a thin curved corridor (thing 400) appears stuck in the wall.

map22:
• Flat bleeds out of linedef 601 into sector 108. Seems to be a node building error.
• Some of the bodies hanging around the castle towers are solid and block you (e.g. thing 551)
• Some of the silent teleporter lines on the small fortress around the red key seem to leave you facing the wrong direction.
• It is rather easy to block the teleport of the three monsters to sectors 2537-9.
• The monster teleporter holding area sector 2187 could do with a redesign as the monsters in it can take forever to teleport out.

map27:
• Troopers up in sectors 592 and 593 are stuck in the wall.