Scythe2 - final version released.

[Erik]

The fact is, the last 3 maps of Scythe 2 are nearing completion. Some of the old 29 maps has bugs or other problems associated with them. Updating these maps would however:

a) take time.

b) make old demos incompatible with them.

So, should I update them? Also, if you know exactly what the problems are, go ahead and post them here.



Edit: Also looks like I found a bug in prboom's screenshot routine...


Edit: The final version is on the archives.

[Julian]

Well, you could call the new megawad Scythe2+ and voilà.

Seems to be a good idea to try & solve existing bugs. Question is: how many of those bugs were used in demos?

[TheDarkArchon]

I say update them: it would seem silly to have an updated re-release that kept known bugs and issues in.

[pcorf]

You could move Map27: Afterlife into the Map30 slot and make a new Map27, Map28 and Map29.

Or keep Map27 as it is and make 3 new maps, 28,29 and 30 with Map30 containing no Icon of Sin but another surprise.

Or just keep it as it is.

[Erik]

pcorf said:

You could move Map27: Afterlife into the Map30 slot and make a new Map27, Map28 and Map29.

Or keep Map27 as it is and make 3 new maps, 28,29 and 30 with Map30 containing no Icon of Sin but another surprise.

Or just keep it as it is.

The new map30 is already completed. And there is a surprise...

[tatsurd-cacocaco]

Oh, it's big news. I have been waiting for completed scythe 2 for a long time.

[scwiba]

My vote is no. There's the issue of demo compatibility, and I have a soft spot for bugs. I find them sort of charming.

Either way, this is wonderful news.

[ReFracture]

Oh fuck yeah. Very nice.

A bug is a bug. I say they should all be squashed, but only after you feel you are done with those other three maps.

I say update it. If people really want to watch old demos, they can keep the old build of Scythe2 handy. Just name the finished wad scythe2final or something.

My knowledge of Scythe2's maps is not intimate enough that I could really point out any bugs, sorry. Been a year or two since my last play through.

[entryway]

Erik said:

Edit: Also looks like I found a bug in prboom's screenshot routine...

Yeah, it is prboom, because small yellow digits are deformed. Use prboom+

[Captain Toenail]

The large lift in map17 before the Cyberdemon fight needs to be set so that it will lower again to allow for other players to go up during coop play - glad to hear you are making more maps for this it's one of my favourite wads

[Do0minat0r]

Wow. I've played Scythe 2 long ago (and it was great, just as everyone else says; all but 2 maps were good [and 1 other map was good but seemed out of place] IMO - see P.S. below for details), and I had totally forgotten about the final 3 maps ever being completed. In fact, I thought Erik was LOOONG gone from the community. But to the point: I loved Scythe 2, and I am so happy to see that the final 3 maps will finally be here! In terms of updates, my strong suggestion would be to release the full product as soon as the 3 maps are done so that we can all enjoy it ASAP and not to mention, can also spot any bugs in those maps as well. Then, after we have time to spot any bugs, work on updating any maps that need them when you have time, and then release it under a slightly different name (my suggestion: Scythe 2 Gold Edition, scythe2g.wad). That way we can enjoy the demos we created of the maps.

BTW, I'm voting yes in the poll, but as I said I really recommend releasing the full product of 32 maps as soon as possible and calling the updated product under the slightly different name.

P.S. I would recommend redoing Map09, Map16, and Map26 (for the "Gold Edition" release). Those were the three levels in the pack I had any notable complaints with. Map09 just seems dissapointingly simple, and I just didn't like the concept of Map16 (mostly no monsters and then suddenly a plasma guy appears), while Map26 really had nothing wrong with it, but it seemed like something out of the first Scythe and felt incredibly simple and out of place compared to the massive maps surrounding it. I also wasn't totally enthused about Map31, but it's a secret level and it certainly is different, and there is nothing technically wrong with it. Also for the Gold Edition or whatever you call it, I would recommend redoing the intermission screens and putting the map names into the automap; most megawads nowadays come complete with that. And maybe for an added kick, put in a ZDoom lump so that on Map32, if played with ZDoom, the sky is the same E1 sky that Map01 of Scythe had, instead of the red hellish sky that Map21-32 of Scythe 2 currently follows. Again, these are all just my suggestions as to how things can be perfected.

Oh, and is One Bloody Night Episode 2 really dead, or is that actually going to be finished/released too?

[skepticist]

I think you should leave these maps as they are. Instead of tuning up old maps it`s better to concetrate on new ones. And there`s alot of great demos created for scythe2, it will be a shame if they will go out of sync. It may be not as important to regular players, but all speedrunners who have been involved in demorecording for scythe2 must be respected.

[chexwarrior]

I say go ahead and update the maps. If we waited this long for the new maps we can wait for the rest to be bug fixed.

[Khaoscythe]

It'd be best to fix the bugs eventually...though keeping the original 'buggy' Scythe 2 in circulation.

[esselfortium]

This is awesome news. I'd definitely fix any bugs in the original maps if they come to your attention; old demos can be played with the old version.

[HackNeyed]

Update and rename to keep the old one around for demo compat!

[Stupid Bunny]

Sweet. I'm stoked. The only thing I can think of right now is that MAP25's exit is impossible to access without idclip or whatever.

EDIT: Also, I agree that you should keep the original release of Scythe II online and release the new one separately, rather than simply updating the Scythe II file on the archives. It's important to keep the original around, for posterity/demo compatibility.

[SyntherAugustus]

What, you mean the last few maps are being complete!? Cool beans.

[Doom Marine]

Great news, I can't wait to see the rest of your hell maps.

[Jimmy]

I think the most obvious bug in Scythe 2 is the one in MAP17 that ruins co-op gameplay, however, someone already made a fix for that.
http://skulltag.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19824

The big lift before the cyberdemon does not return down in the original and creates a HOM, breaking coop mode, the fix makes the lift return back down again to allow all players to proceed. map17 is still flawed in coop though, the large rope bridge is actually a giant invisible platform, so when this raises it blocks other players anyway, the only way round this is to rocket-jump tot he bottom of the canyon.

[myk]

The demos thread notes a few issues that get in the way of Doom (but limit removing) compatibility. I could go over it and send you a report with more details (or at least so that you don't have to hunt through the thread).

[printz]

Julian Hope said:

Question is: how many of those bugs were used in demos?

No matter how a map is resaved, the chances of keeping its demos on sync are thin.

I say update and rename. New demos shall be recorded on the new wad.

[xit-vono]

I support updating the wad so that all the maps are doom2.exe compatible (though limit removing of course). I think this would encourage demo recording, and also there are some boom quirks that I find annoying, such as monsters getting stuck on eachother, and getting pushed off ledges. Do you think that would be feasible?

[HackNeyed]

entryway said:

Yeah, it is prboom, because small yellow digits are deformed. Use prboom+

While it is true that PrBoom+ handles square resolutions better then PrBoom (800x600 is perfect in PrBoom+ where as 1024x768 is almost perfect in PrBoom). I play at 320x200 and 640x400 because, unfortunately 320x240 and 640x480 are only less deformed in PrBoom+ which makes me sad because PrBoom+ has screen multiplication like Chocolate Doom to bring the low resolutions up to native LCD scale for a sharp clean look. But unlike Chocolate Doom, PrBoom-Plus' aspect correction is not as complete to allow "classic" BOOM maps (or DOOM maps) the same classic square treatment.

Although I don't see how this is "a bug in prboom's screenshot routine..." Was there something else wrong with the picture?

[Dreadopp]

I also voted yes. I really liked Scythe 2. :)

[myk]

HackNeyed said:
I play at 320x200 and 640x400 because, unfortunately 320x240 and 640x480 are only less deformed

To have the feature you're asking for PrBoom+ should have a screen multiply option based around the original "16/10" aspect. Currently it seems to just allow fake lower resolution, which looks bad to start from. Like you could have "320x240" on a system that runs only 640x480 or more, but it'll still be a bit flawed. Since LCDs have an optimal resolution of 1280x1024, you can apply something like 320x256 x4, which fills the screen but looks like shit, 320x240 x4, that doesn't look very good (and is a bit flat) or 320x200 x4, which looks flawless but very flattened.

On my system, with a 17" LCD, 320x200 and 640x400 are smoothed and stretched nicely and look good.

[HackNeyed]

myk said:

On my system, with a 17" LCD, 320x200 and 640x400 are smoothed and stretched nicely and look good.

Exactly. On a widescreen (mine are 1280x800 and 1024x600 and my desktop was 1920x1200) the original "16/10" aspect looks great if you don't mind shorter fatter former humans and demons. I don't really mind it so much and enjoy the full use of the 'wide' screen so that is why I play at those resolutions, besides, for Quake/Quake II it's all my netbook can handle sometimes. Even with ZDoom at higher resolutions I'll keep the "16/10" aspect and turn off its widescreen 'fix' and in Chocolate Doom I disable aspect correction to keep all inline with my primary engine PrBoom+. I would just like the option for that clean square nostalgia look and feel in my primary engine and for BOOM maps. :)

[myk]

Don't your widescreen monitors have a plain screen mode that leaves dark areas to the sides? A guy I play online with said his has such a feature when I asked him whether it was skewing the view of the original executables.

[Stever1009]

I found a bug in map 31: the door to the secret exit doesn't open and no matter what I do, it just won't open at all.

[ReFracture]

myk said:

Don't your widescreen monitors have a plain screen mode that leaves dark areas to the sides? A guy I play online with said his has such a feature when I asked him whether it was skewing the view of the original executables.

When I want to play doom in it's low res glory, I set dosbox and vanilla doom up at my display's native resolution with the aspect ratio correction enabled. Looks pretty damn good.