DTWID: Project is done, check the release thread

[Reisal]

Marcaek said:

Once that and the other issues I mentioned are fixed, it'll be perfect.

The starting shotgun ammo was meant to be used on those two barons, and the end barons were moved to the third trap in RC2 so it's not possible for them to corner you.

The ammo is a bit tightish at start so it forces the player to switch between pistol and shotgun up until the chaingun (whether the secret one or one in round room), then the ammo level is a little more common.

Also, the ending room that I obviously ripped in design like the original E2M4 will be changed in RC3/final version.

[C30N9]

E1M1 Finished.
Shall I upload it here for public? (I don't prefer) Or PM?

[Marnetmar]

C30N9 said:

E1M1 Finished.
Shall I upload it here for public? (I don't prefer) Or PM?

Mar doesn't care as long as Mar gets to play it.

Edit

Layout's about 70% done...

[C30N9]

Marnetmar+Hellbent, check PMs

[Walter confetti]

i'll already take e3m1, and for the maps i work, i'll think to take some early map slot for city of corspses(2nd hell map), and for that e2 stuff... i'll take e2m9, if you're don't work on it already....

[Reisal]

C30N9 said:

E1M1 Finished.
Shall I upload it here for public? (I don't prefer) Or PM?

I uploaded my RC versions of E2M4 for review and optional testing by other members, so I don't see anything against showing other project members completed work or release candidates.

[NaturalTvventy]

Slime trails is basically done...

d/l ->

http://www.mediafire.com/?tfnaj2q5v1rx67i

Ya need the textures loaded too ->

http://www.mediafire.com/?c25blmk3wrjr9ek

Level set as e1m1, though I built it as if it's going into slot e1m2 (no pinkies yet). Let me know what you think!

Needs another secret or two. Will work it in before the final version.

NT

Screens:

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/emilharold/Screenshot_Doom_20110102_164343.png

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/emilharold/Screenshot_Doom_20110102_164418.png

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/emilharold/Screenshot_Doom_20110102_164433.png

[Marnetmar]

Oh Hellbent, about that letter you thought up for Romero, I don't think you should start it with "Doom the way id did is..." because it sounds like you're just some advertiser. Why not just start it with "Yo John" or something? He's a human, not Jesus.

(...Don't tell him I said that...)

[Reisal]

Hellbent, do you know who is doing what (precise) maps so far and what maps have not been claimed?

Also, how are the exit modifications going on my/Freeze's map collab for E2M4? Do you think it's too difficult?

[Hellbent]

Mr. Chris said:

Hellbent, do you know who is doing what (precise) maps so far and what maps have not been claimed?

Also, how are the exit modifications going on my/Freeze's map collab for E2M4? Do you think it's too difficult?

I haven't gotten to your exit yet Mr. Chris :-/ I will try to get to it tomorrow.

As far as map slots, yeah, that's a bit unclear due to the nature of the project which has been described as make a map that would fit between existing maps that would seem like a lost level from the original game; an intriguing concept but one that poses problems for a project that ultimately has turned into an entire first three episode replacement where definitive (precise) map slots ultimately need to be decided upon. I'm not sure how these two concepts can be compatible. I have been trying to think up how to handle map slots in light of this.

The project has really taken off in the last week or two, especially last few days, and I would hate to discourage people from mapping in light of this enthusiasm, especially since I think we are always improving and getting closer to the id ideal.

Given this fact, and that we already have about 30 submissions, I think it's only inevitable to accept the fact that not all the maps up to this point will make it into the final project, and that many of them will have to be regarded as learning experiences, and many will need overhaul. Eventually, a more organized approach to map slots will have to be assumed and the original concept of making a map that would fit between two existing maps in an episode will have to be abandoned, at least practically, while the spirit of the idea can still be referenced to as a guide. For now, though, I think we should keep steam rolling ahead with the gathering momentum.

I was sort of thinking that we'll just keep churning out maps and taking what we've learned and continue giving feedback until the maps are really supercalifragilous. Many of you who have made more than one map have shown improvement with your maps. Most notably to me is C3N09. So I am wary of telling people they cannot map for a certain mapslot because someone else has already done it. I know people don't like the idea that their first try won't be in the final release, but if we had just allowed C3N09's first attempt to be in the first release, and not have made several maps, the final product would not be as good. C3N09's latest maps are much better than his earlier maps. What I am saying is, I don't think we're at the final release stage of quality of the maps, and so we shouldn't be concerned about making maps for map slots that already exist. That doesn't mean none of the maps so are won't be included, it just means it's hard to say which ones at this point will be, and so we shouldn't limit our inspiration to make the map we want to map because of fear that the map slot is already taken. Remember, all the maps that don't make the cut for the final release in this project can be compiled in a separate doomy wad.

I have made many starts at maps but haven't kept them. The E3M5ish map I started at the beginning of this project I am happy to acknowledge will not be included in its present form if at all. I don't mind making failed attempts. I enjoy making the maps, and I know that my failed attempt can still be released and enjoyed by people. I understand there is a process inherent in this project. We should be less concerned with what map slots are still available and more concerned with how to make our maps better. I know I have been coming up short in this department: in giving real helpful feedback. I am afraid to give too much criticism and I am not the most diplomatic critic of doom maps. Others have been giving great feedback, so at this point I think where I am not sure my feedback will be helpful, best for me to hold my tongue.

One way I know how to give feedback is to show by example: that is, edit the maps that are submitted with changes that I think would bring them closer to the id ideal. I have been doing this with several of the maps, but I am not very good myself at achieving the level of quality I want in this project, so I have been slow in returning my 'critiques' to their owners. I was thinking I would include them in the alpha, and get feedback from others.

I know this is not the response you all wanted to the question of map slots. At this time I do not know a better response that has the best interest of the final product of this project in mind. Restricting map slots at this point just doesn't make sense. Just about every map slot has been mapped for, but that doesn't mean we should stop mapping and compile what we've got, since I don't feel that this project is done. Since people have demonstrated they are more comfortable creating new maps than major overhauls of existing maps, I think the best way to continue forward is to just keep churning out maps and giving each other the best feedback we can.

It is hard to give precise feedback. So much of what makes Doom DooM is so hard to quantify. In light of this, I think the best thing we can do is to keep studying the maps, keep offering insights. I will try to get more up on my 'chapter by chapter' analysis that I started recently. This would probably be a good time to message Romero since this thing is really taking off right now. I will try to get that Alpha done ASAP.

In the meantime, here is another draft for Romero. Again, please give feedback/suggestions/criticisms! Thanks to Marnetmar for the feedback.

"Hi John, many diehard Doomers are working round the clock on a community project that attempts to emulate the original doom maps in look, atmosphere, design and gameplay. We would love any feedback or insights you can provide us about the designing of the original Doom episodes (especially episode 1) to help us make maps that could be mistaken for original Doom maps. Of course, if you feel like taking a trip down memory lane and want to try your hand at making a classic E1 map, we would be thrilled!"

Nice looking shots, NT.

[Xaser]

Hmm, I went and started a map. So far it's shaping out to be a mix of E2M1+E1M1-style architecture with E2M1-ish texturing. I've got a temp. name -- Arc Labs -- that I might keep because I kinda like it.

[C30N9]

I thought about publishing here
http://www.filefront.com/17740865/e1full.wad

NOTE: this e1m1 with the gameplay e1m1, what i mean is this is so small.

Marnetmar's Opinion:

Very fun to play! I do have some criticism though:

1. I think you used a little too much curvature in your lines, that's not a good thing if you want to recreate the look and feel of E1.
2. I'd replace the dead imp at the beginning with something human (that's also dead, heh)
3. I'm not too fond of the "ledge" at the beginning of the map, I also thought the beginning room of the map was a bit bland.

[purist]

If the project aim is to create a group of "lost id levels" rather than an alternative Doom megawad it would make sense to just zip them up as individual maps. You could have any amount of levels then and they wouldn't have to conform to episodes or mapslots either.

[ellmo]

purist said:

If the project aim is to create a group of "lost id levels" rather than an alternative Doom megawad it would make sense to just zip them up as individual maps. You could have any amount of levels then and they wouldn't have to conform to episodes or mapslots either.

But it's so much more tedious to play maps if they'e not in any order or sorted into episodes.

I was just thinking though - maybe if we have enough maps, and some of them are in good vanilla-quality, but don't really fit into any of the original episodes - we still can have a fourth episode? We won't try to mimic Thy flesh consumed however, just treat E4 as a backup, and maybe we can fill it with quality maps that didn't fit anywhere else, or maps that would otherwise duplicate some of the slots from three previous episodes?

What do you guys think?

C30N9 said:

I thought about publishing here
http://www.filefront.com/17740865/e1full.wad

NOTE: this e1m1 with the gameplay e1m1, what i mean is this is so small.

ellmo's opinion:

Very nice level, I love how you use LITEBLU3 in-between hallways. The simple secret door to go outside feels really E1-ish. I don't have any issues with the stating ledge - it has this "you'll get there eventually" feeling.

As for criticism:
I was hoping for less action and more spookiness in the first 20 seconds or so. I think the two zombiemen right before you, when you start the episode, spoil the atmosphere, not to mention it's exactly like Doom2 opening. Also the zombieman on the ledge, I'd remove him. Notice how E1 levels rarely have any monsters right of the bat. IMHO - it would be best to add another room prior to your current starting room, and make the player start there, then the zombiemen in the current starting room don't have to face the other way, because they won't notice the player straight from the start.

EDIT: Oh, also chainsaw and megaarmor for a starting level is too much (yes I know there's a megaarmor in E1M1, but still - it feelsl ike too much)

[ellmo]

double post, delete please

[Reisal]

I do have an idea for maps that do not make it into the main four episodes...perhaps compile a "leftovers episode" so they don't completely go to waste?

Of course this would be more or less exclusive for ZDoom ports, but it's a good idea for maps that do not make it so they're not put to waste.

[40oz]

I'm siding with Hellbent on this one. I suppose it's in a way unfortunate that a lot of these maps may not land in the final product. It's a pretty high level of quality control but at the same time it feels very necessary for this type of project. A problem that turns me off from many community-based projects is that the members kinda take over the project by expecting that every map they make will land in the final project (and they usually do) which makes for an inconsistent mess of good and bad maps. The goal of this project is touch on an acceptable level of consistency in order to appear as though it was made in 1993 by idsoftware. In short, we have to all map like John Romero and Sandy Petersen, so that we can map like each other.

Doom 1 has many maps but many of them follow very strict unwritten rules. Despite how much progress has been made so far, I feel like we've only scratched the surface of what it's goal set out to do. This thread feels like the preliminary project page. It's still practice and I feel like many of our mapping styles vary too much to make a final consistent product, so choosing mapslots is completely out of the question at this point. Everyone should simply be practicing mapping so that we can boil down to a consistent doomy style. This may mean that everyone may have to make 5 or more maps, unless you already grasp exactly what were going for (so far, hardly anyone, including myself has done it). If you're not into that then this project isn't for you.

[ellmo]

40oz said:

I'm siding with Hellbent on this one. I suppose it's in a way unfortunate that a lot of these maps may not land in the final product. It's a pretty high level of quality control but at the same time it feels very necessary for this type of project. A problem that turns me off from many community-based projects is that the members kinda take over the project by expecting that every map they make will land in the final project (and they usually do) which makes for an inconsistent mess of good and bad maps.

This is a very good and valid point. I agree with you there completely. The rest of the maps can still be released separately, or - as I and mr. Chris said - a fourth episode, whichever option suits the project leader best.

40oz said:

should simply be practicing mapping so that we can boil down to a consistent doomy style. This may mean that everyone may have to make 5 or more maps, unless you already grasp exactly what were going for (so far, hardly anyone, including myself has done it). If you're not into that then this project isn't for you.

This might change when some kind of an internal alpha-test is compiled and I believe Hellbent wants to work on something like that.
When you guys have a set / episode of maps (and not just a handful of single wad entries), it should be much easier to pinpoint all inconsistencies and help each other to deal with them.

[40oz]

C30N9: I liked you map! I can tell its for E1M1 without reading about that ahead of time.

Marnetmar, the zombiemen on the ledge you didnt like, are you referring to the shotgun guys that you can snipe from the windows? Because I thought that was awesome.

There were some qualms I had with the map's looks that seperate it from looking Doomy. The curved stairs in the chainsaw room were okay but textured kinda weird. idsoftware usually always uses step textures on their stairs, and the floor textures change, which makes it look like a seperate structure and not just damaged, disheveled floor.

There are no real outdoor objects to use in the E1 episode besides items, so candelabras outside near the megaarmor was a little weird.

I think ellmo was right that you experience a little too much for it being a first map. The megaarmor is a little too easy to get, theres a lot of action AND stuff to look at, but it should be more focused on stuff to look at, and less on action. The chainsaw should be much more well hidden in a later map. It didn't feel much like a 'discovery' to me. Also the medikit on the pillar that you lower down with the switch didn't feel much like a reward. It doesn't make sense to me that something as common a medikit would have to be suspended out of reach. I think a shotgun would have been better suited for that, but only if that room were a little more difficult to get to.

[Reisal]

40oz: Did you take a look at RC2 of my map yet? What do you think of it and the general build of the architecture?

[ellmo]

40oz said:

Marnetmar, the zombiemen on the ledge you didnt like, are you referring to the shotgun guys that you can snipe from the windows?

Can't say for Marnetmar, but I thought he meant this one (and so did I):



But if the beginning of the map was moved to an adjacent room, I'd be perfectly ok with this - but of course it's just my subjective opinion.

[40oz]

NaturalTvventy: Your map is really cool by itself but there are some pretty big things that make it unfit for Doom 1.

The map has a pretty cool layout. It was difficult for me to figure out at first but I eventually got it. No big deal but there was way too much nukage that I was required to walk over. It didn't kill me but environmental hazards are stagnant regardless of the skill level being played, so I expect a new doomer to be overwhelmed by that area in the map.

Theres a lot of abstract architecture which is cool in some areas and unreal in others. I think what your map suffers from pretty badly is how much texture variation is in it. Many of the rooms in Doom 1 use 1-3 textures at the most, while many of the rooms in your map use 10 or more. There's way too much 'visual noise' which makes almost every one of the rooms in your maps have no identity and makes seeing where you need to go really difficult. The new textures definitely aren't helping. I think you need to restrict your rooms to only a few select textures because having SLADWALL, PIPEWALL, TEKWALL, and COMPWALL all in one room really makes a mess.

I see your usage of support textures which is nice but I don't see them being used where they should be. Support textures generally seperate changes in ceiling height and/or changes in wall textures. Also I noticed none of the walls with PLAT1 textures did anything, which was confusing to me since all PLAT1 textured sectors were lifts in Doom.

A lot of areas were really cool. I especially liked the blue key room, and that bridge you activate with the switch was pretty sweet given the line actions you were working with. However, stuff like that seems really advanced and complex for something like Doom, which reduced it's 1993 feel.

[Alfonzo]

e1m1 is, in one sense, one of the most difficult maps to create for this project, as you're dealing with a player new not only to Doom, but probably to first person shooters in general. The player is likely still boggling at his actually being able to control a virtual character as opposed to almost anything else. I mean, this character is you. He has no name because unlike the games of today, the fascination of embodying or taking control of a virtual being through a set of keyboard issued commands is incredible enough a reality to overthrow the interests of what that character's story arc or background might be, or what motivations he might have. He has your motivation, and your interests. Pressing the forward key is likely going to bring more joy to the first-time FPSer than the observing of gameplay constants, balance or anything else at all, and I think this is something to keep in mind when dealing with the very early levels of e1. Here's a brief pinup of how the levels develop in light of this observation:

e1m1: Kinetic, wide and open, with room for error and misstep. The first room introduces the player into the environment, and provides plenty of room to run amok in before the first door is activated and the challenge really begins. There are barrels in order to demonstrate the game's physics and gameplay elements, and there's height variation, to impress upon the player a sense of space and exploration; two key dynamics. The player is rewarded for ascending the first set of stairs to the west with some body armor, for instance, which is to show that exploration in this game is beneficial to the player, and that using the game's more impressive features will grant access to these rewards.

Another very important room is the nukage room, which features a zig-zag walkway across the hazard. The player is almost certainly still getting to grips with the controls, and might even have some difficulty in navigating the curiously misshapen crossing. And with those imps heaving balls of flame from one corner of the ceiling, one might be pressured into veering off-course. Lifts, switches and doors make for an interactive, stunning first impression, and the player is rewarded in two separate instances for use of speed and keyboard mastery (secrets).

e1m2: The key is introduced and the length of the map increases, lending further to that sense of space and exploration. At the same time however the player is made to fear certain areas of the map - which is an interesting contrast - by use of flashing corridors and open nukage pools. At this stage however, these areas aren't necessary to explore, so the player is given the opportunity to postpone his fear and reach for the exit switch instead.

e1m3: By e1m3, the player is thrust into danger and fear without any option for avoidance, such as with the blue key trap. In addition, the sense of space is lessened somewhat, and the player (who by now probably has a reasonable grasp of the controls) is given less room to move about in. Both the starting room and outdoor inescapable nukage pits punish the player for any lack of control, and the heightened monster count pressures the player into making errors. The rewards for exploration are even greater than before, however, and it is at this stage of the game that the player realizes the need to discover secrets and gain an advantage in combat, else he might fall victim to the game's increasingly hostile methods.

The first few levels make for an interesting study in game psychology and map design, and if there were ever a need for the particularities of these stages of the game to be fully explored, this project would be the best possible reason to do so.

[40oz]

Mr. Chris: Yours and Mr Freeze's map are definitely one of the better E2 maps I've seen. The texture theme is very consistent and looks like Deimos Lab without being a knock off of Deimos Lab. Very well done. I especially liked the thing placement in much of the map. The floor lamps did a good job indicating where to go, and the monsters felt pretty well placed. There were a couple things I'd suggest though. I think the part early in the map where you fight two hell barons with a shotgun was pretty hairy. All the shotgun shells given to you right away seemed kinda phoned in. I'd suggest spreading those shotgun shells out and making those hell barons into cacodemons or a pack of lost souls or something. I thought the yellow key trap was really harsh too, the spectres were one thing but the demons and imps blocked my footing from standing on anything that wasnt nukage which was pretty difficult compared to the rest of the map which was pretty tame. Also given the time of day I was playing your map in, when I got to the really dark room with rays of light, there was a lot of glare on my screen and i spent like a good minute and a half figuring that room out, then came across a Partial Invisiblity which made navigation even harder. How about a Light Amplification visor instead?

The structure of the map felt a little too orthogonal and flat in many parts, which kinda makes since given that it is inspired by Deimos Lab, but I would like to see E2 get the same kinda love and devotion that E1 did. I'm not sure if orthogonal was the right word because you do use varying angles in many parts, i guess just because the general layout out of the hallways, I feel like the general cardinal direction the player needs to move in in any part of the map is either north or south, and east or west, and rarely any other direction. There were few stairs and the stairs that were there didnt get you very high or very low.

For the most part I think the map is very good. I've got other tiny nitpicky stuff if you're interested in hearing but for the most part your map is very good.

[Reisal]

@40oz: I and Freeze very much appreciate the feedback, and I am more than happy to hear about your nitpicky things in PM. The very first baron pair show up only on UV, as they are cacos on HNTR/HMP/ITYTD skills.

On the dark room, I think I might as well change it to a light-amp but myself I didn't have much trouble navigating (using OpenGL mode) but I can see your trouble if you were using ZDoom or PRBoom.

The exit will definitely will be changing to something that isn't a rip-off of E2M4's exit courtesy of Hellbent.

Also, how many of the secrets did you find? If you found the chaingun and invis in the dark room, that's one of five.

PS: I uploaded two new maps this past week, one being this, it's an E1M1 type map and the other is pending in /incoming, which has a MAP01 feeling to it.

[C30N9]

I only found the plasma gun secret.
Adding to the small things, why the yellow key door is marked with a ceiling texture? It looked very wierd.

However, i did feel it as e2m4

[Hellbent]

I just realized the plasma rifle in Episode 2 is only ever found in a secret. My friend just completed episode 2. He had cheated earlier straight to Babel and was struggling to defeat the cyb with only the rocket. He then got to Babel after playing through the episode. He was like
"oh no, not this again!" I was like,
"at least you have the plasma gun now, right?" He's like
"I don't have the plasma gun."
I then thought about this for a second and realized that in order for him to have gotten the plasma gun he would have had to have found a secret. He is not good at finding secrets and so hadn't found any of the plasma rifles in the episode.

EDIT: Feedback on my latest draft to John?

"Hey John,
I am working on a community doom project that has generated a lot of enthusiasm and maps. We are trying to recreate Doom just the way you and Sandy Petersen made them in atmosphere, gameplay, design, level of detail etc (but completely original levels). I am currently putting together an alpha of the maps we have produced so far and would love your insights on the development of Doom that led you and Petersen to create such abstract, absorbing and atmospheric maps that make up Doom so that we can improve our maps."

EDIT: Map limitations. Is it just me, or are E2 maps generally the largest/most lines? Episode 3 seems more simple; more uniform texturing--smaller/simpler maps (not less abstract, just less lines). Your thoughts/observations on the structure of the maps of the different episodes? Are there some generalizations about each episode that can be made? For example: compare E2M7 to E3M7. E3M7 is much less intricate than E2M7.

[ellmo]

Hellbent said:

Is it just me, or are E2 maps generally the largest/most lines

Yeah, they are quite big compared to E1 / E3 maps. In some cases you can complete the map without exploring most of it (i.e. E2M5), so you might say there's a lot of non-critical architecture, I think that's also one of key things to notice about E2.

[Hellbent]

Yeah, and E2M5 has no keys! My friend who is playing through Doom right now got to the end of that level and was like "what? that's it?" He just happened to take a very direct route to the exit without meaning to.

I was thinking for a secret level maybe an interesting concept would be a level that has 3 keys/doors but none of them are required to beat the level. They would be there as secret areas leading to strange/cool areas and weapons/power ups. I dunno.. maybe a dumb idea. One thing I always liked about Doom was finding the doors that weren't necessary but were secrets, like on E1M3 (the yellow key door) and on E2M2 (the yellow key doors again).

[C30N9]

Yeah the Sub-Rooms are counted as a main thing in a doom 1 level. These levels especially E2, i love exiting after exploring everything. What i hate that i'm not good at adding sub-rooms! My last level (E1M1) had one Sub-Room (thankfully) depending on the Sub-Room of the original.

E1M2 has a full computer station which is Sub.
E1M3 the same.
E2M2 is one of the Sub insane levels, that makes it big. The primary always in E2 is small but not cleared, while the sub makes it maze like.
E2M3 doesn't have much.
E2M4 also.
E2M5 the second insane sub, so much.
E2M6 poor of sub-rooms.
E2M7 this is the most insane sub-rooms, it's like every door has a sub.

That's what Peterson was good at. Even check his Doom 2 levels, it have subs too (some).