DTWID: Project is done, check the release thread

[Xaser]

Erm... what do you mean by "sub room"? Are you trying to refer to optional areas?

And yeah, E2 was chock-full of them. E2M1 started it off with a bang by making an entire key not only completely optional but secret as well.

[Marnetmar]

Speaking of subrooms, Hellbent, here's something you might wanna add to your OP: Making a "start here, end there" map layout and then adding a bunch of other subrooms and hallways is a really BAD way to make your map non-linear. It won't work.

[C30N9]

By sub i mean secondary.
Anyway, e2m2 has 2 secret yellow key doors!

[Marcaek]

Just to be clear, does anyone have a problem with the maps I uploaded? I'm very close to finishing another E2 map and I'd like to know beforehand if there's any mistakes I missed, so that I can prevent them from showing up again.

[Reisal]

C30N9 said:

I only found the plasma gun secret.
Adding to the small things, why the yellow key door is marked with a ceiling texture? It looked very wierd.

I wasn't sure what other texture to use, even FLAT5_5 would have looked out of place so I used the next best base equivalent.

..or did you mean the floor texture FLAT20? I use that as a median/divider texture when switching between floors of significant difference, much the way SUPPORT2 and SUPPORT3 are used for walls.

[NaturalTvventy]

Thanks for the feedback 40oz. A reply to some of your comments...

40oz said:

Also I noticed none of the walls with PLAT1 textures did anything, which was confusing to me since all PLAT1 textured sectors were lifts in Doom.

Hmm odd. All those lines are set as lifts. I can certainly see how the map would seem rather flawed if they don't work! It must be the port you're playing it on. I don't use sector tags with my lift action lines. In zdoom, and I'm pretty sure vanilla DOOM, if there is no sector tag designated it just uses the second sidedef as reference. An easy fix, if there are some ports that don't understand untagged lift line types.

40oz said:

there was way too much nukage that I was required to walk over.

You don't HAVE to walk over much at all. Only the little jolt to the blue key is required (as long as the lifts are working). And, of course there's a rad suit in the monster closet in that room. So we can chalk it up to 'learning how the rad suit works'.

Granted, there's a lot of nukage on this one. I'd call it the nukage level if it was in the original set. But that's pretty e1 in my book. I'm pretty sure on every level save e1m8 you have the option to take a dive into the glowing stuff if you want to see the whole map. This one's just playing on that theme.

40oz said:

I think what your map suffers from pretty badly is how much texture variation is in it. Many of the rooms in Doom 1 use 1-3 textures at the most, while many of the rooms in your map use 10 or more.

Ya really like this one don't ya? Here's a little experiment I did... first I went and found THE busiest screenshot I could find on my map and labeled the various types of textures...

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/emilharold/Screenshot_Doom_20110103_175111-1.png

Then I picked a view I'm sure we are all familiar with and did the same thing...

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/emilharold/Screenshot_Doom_20110103_175004-1.png

Gee, 6 texture types rather then 5. MY EYES ARE BLEEDING!!

Ah, I kid. I suppose if you wanted to be nit picky you could say I used 3 types of BROWN and 3 types of LITE or that I shouldn't count STEP or whatev's but those to me all belong in a family and and can be mixed and matched plenty and still be visually appealing. Plus the field of view is much wider in my shot. This is a very strange thing you are seeing I think. Take another look at DOOM and see if my work is really that cluttered.

40oz said:

Support textures generally seperate changes in ceiling height and/or changes in wall textures.

Isn't that how I used it? Generally?

40oz said:

A lot of areas were really cool. I especially liked the blue key room, and that bridge you activate with the switch was pretty sweet given the line actions you were working with. However, stuff like that seems really advanced and complex for something like Doom, which reduced it's 1993 feel.

The floor thing we haven't seen in original DOOM, but I wouldn't put it too far out of the realm of possibilities. I guess I was going off the general notion that each DOOM level feels somewhat unique, and that the end floor movements are part of what makes this level have it's own feel. Frankly a lot of what I've seen on here has just been rehashes of existing DOOM areas and themes. That's not what a lost DOOM level would entail at all, which is what this project is supposed to represent, so I've heard.

But if you still stand behind your statements and feel like this level isn't DTWID material then that's the way it goes I guess. We just have different ideas of what this project is about. It sounds like there's too many maps to start with anyways. I just better not see any misused SUPPORT2s in the final project!

NT

[Hellbent]

NT, you could try loading doom1.wad iwad instead of the doom.wad iwad into your editor (the doom1.wad iwad is the shareware wad and only has episode 1 textures) and then correct all the missing textures with ones found in the shareware iwad. I thought some of the texture choices kept the level from feeling e1 authentic. The map overall is very good. I like the layout and non-linearity of it.

As far as slime being everywhere in episode 1, that isn't really true. Slime in your level is pretty ubiquitous. It is literally everywhere. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, but it is a bit noticeably more than any other doom map. If anything, your map is a bit reminiscent of episode 2 with the blue panels and the large amounts of slime (the way E2M4 had large amounts of slime in the blue area and the beginning of E2M6 had a lot of slime). But both those levels do not have slime throughout the level the way it is in your level. Just an observation, not really a criticism at this point.

I'd be curious to see how this latest map of yours feels when keeping strict to episode 1 textures.

[Grain of Salt]

NaturalTvventy said:

Hmm odd. All those lines are set as lifts. I can certainly see how the map would seem rather flawed if they don't work! It must be the port you're playing it on. I don't use sector tags with my lift action lines. In zdoom, and I'm pretty sure vanilla DOOM, if there is no sector tag designated it just uses the second sidedef as reference.

I'm almost certain that's just ZDoom. I used that shortcut once, and it failed in every other port I used.

[NaturalTvventy]

Hellbent said:

NT, you could try loading doom1.wad iwad instead of the doom.wad iwad into your editor (the doom1.wad iwad is the shareware wad and only has episode 1 textures) and then correct all the missing textures with ones found in the shareware iwad. I thought some of the texture choices kept the level from feeling e1 authentic. The map overall is very good. I like the layout and non-linearity of it.

The only two textures I use that's not in shareware are PIPE6 which is the same as PIPE2 except with the green slime trim, and LITEMET or whatever, which is the METAL texture with the light thrown on. Is this really a big deal? VERY similar to textures that already appear in the first episode of DOOM. In other places I'm using textures that didn't even make it into the original game for chrimody's sake. Taking out the LITEMET I can see but without the green trim the nukage areas would look kind'a bad. And they are so similar to existing textures it seems silly to remove them based on some ideal (ESPECIALLY with the alpha textures being used).

Hellbent said:

As far as slime being everywhere in episode 1, that isn't really true. Slime in your level is pretty ubiquitous. It is literally everywhere. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, but it is a bit noticeably more than any other doom map. If anything, your map is a bit reminiscent of episode 2 with the blue panels and the large amounts of slime (the way E2M4 had large amounts of slime in the blue area and the beginning of E2M6 had a lot of slime). But both those levels do not have slime throughout the level the way it is in your level. Just an observation, not really a criticism at this point.

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/emilharold/Screenshot_Doom_20110103_200007.png

Lots of blue panels. I used it in two rooms instead of 1. Too much??

Yes it's got lots of slime. Like I've said, it's the slime level of E1. That's the way I see it. If that's too far out of bounds of this project then this level is a bit beyond changing and will have to not be included.

Grain of Salt said:

I'm almost certain that's just ZDoom. I used that shortcut once, and it failed in every other port I used.

Shitballs! I swear I remember using untagged lifts in my youth. Ah well, created memory. It's been fixed.

NT

[Marcaek]

E2M3 ready for review: removed

Spent the last week trimming and tweaking this. It has crashed when loading the next map, not sure if anyone else will experience it, but if they do I'd appreciate some help in fixing it. There's some Tutti but it's in finishable state right now.

[Reisal]

I'm pretty sure that E1M1 map I made could double as E2M1 if I retexture it, right?

[Hellbent]

NT: interesting points you make. The way you used the textures make it seem Episode 2ish to me. It's not just about what textures you use, but how you use them; and yes, how much you use them. I don't think pipe textures were used at great length in episode 1, or were used to create e2-like slime areas. To my eyes, you are using pipe textures in an episode 2 style, not the way they were used in Episode 1 (although I suppose you have a screenshot to show me I'm wrong on this point too!) I don't want to discourage you anymore with my comments tho. It's a very good map. I may just need to get used to it. Originality, after-all, is a good thing.

[Xaser]

I think I'm going to have to disagree about some of the critiques regarding NT's map : I felt it was very authentic, especially in terms of layout and flow. It's very open, not just a set of closed rooms, in a way that just screams E1. Everything else (textures and line actions and such) are only nitpick issues in my eyes -- still important enough to bring up, but not enough to always bring a map down. And for that matter, I didn't think the alpha textures felt out of place at all. They were used well, and that's what counts the most.

If there was anything at all that detracted from the id feel, I'd have to say that (of all things) it was the octagonal 'columns' bordering the TEKWALL* alcoves that felt a bit out of place. They seem a bit too 'round' -- id likely would've made them a bit more angular in such a context.

Also, what's wrong with the use of slime? It's used more thoroughly here than in any other E1 map, but I don't see why that's a problem. I know this project is "Doom the way id did," but it seems a bit too harsh to restrict a motif just because it wasn't so prevalent in the original maps. As long as it's used well and still feels like Doom -- which it does here to me.


Regarding the use of E2/E3 textures in E1: I've never seen any reason to assume that id determined exactly which textures to use in E1 before it was created. Though there had to have been some common sense rules in place (e.g. "don't use Hellish textures in the first episode") that did affect the texturing, it's clear that the contents of TEXTURE1 were decided after the maps were finished and the shareware episode was finalized (the separation of the STAR* textures between the two TEXTURE sets is evidence of this). Simply put, they're not in TEXTURE1 because id didn't use them in E1, not the other way around. ;)

I bring this up because I've seen (not specifically here, mind you) too many negative comments about intended E1-style maps because the author used a texture or two that didn't appear in E1, regardless of whether the textures even fit well (more often than not, they did). I understand the thought that textures like SKSPINE1 or GSTONE1 are going to detract from the E1 feel, but when the complaints start to apply to LITESTON or NUKEPOIS (or even SUPPORT3 -- that one's a bit of a controversy point), they've generally gone too far into the nitpick realm. :P

Eh, a bit of a tangent, that. I just see no need to comb through any map to specifically weed out textures that didn't appear in x question. The only real texturing question I've seen about NT's map is regarding the blue areas, and they're done in such a way that they remind me more of E1M1's computer room than E2M4 anyway.

[EDIT] And the pipes, but they'd need to be a bit more bloody to look like E2, in my eyes. That texture can fit either way so long as it's not the dominant room feature (since that's an E2M4 characteristic).

[NaturalTvventy]

Hellbent said:

NT: interesting points you make. The way you used the textures make it seem Episode 2ish to me. It's not just about what textures you use, but how you use them; and yes, how much you use them. I don't think pipe textures were used at great length in episode 1, or were used to create e2-like slime areas. To my eyes, you are using pipe textures in an episode 2 style, not the way they were used in Episode 1 (although I suppose you have a screenshot to show me I'm wrong on this point too!) I don't want to discourage you anymore with my comments tho. It's a very good map. I may just need to get used to it. Originality, after-all, is a good thing.

Heh nah come to think of it now I don't even know where any PIPE textures were used in e1. i just saw PIPE2 in TEXTURE1 and proceeded to fill my map full of pipes. I agree with Xaser's point though that they could have very easily wound up there. They flow so well with BROWN1 etc. I dunno - I could swap 'em out with NUKESLAD or BROWN1, but I think the PIPE looks much better, especially because of the trim and the theme of the level. I shall leave the final call to you HB. This is a group project after all.

The support is very much appreciated Xaser. I agree that the flow of the map is most important.

...and just because I can my friend....

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/emilharold/Screenshot_Doom_20110103_212554.png

Oh Noes Octagonal columns!!

NT

EDIT: So when are you guys gonna rip my e2 map a new one eh? If you want overuse of artistic license that's the place to look!

[Xaser]

But that's just one! ;)


....Eh, I actually just put five in a room in the map I'm working on. so phooey. :(

[NaturalTvventy]

Xaser said:

But that's just one! ;)


....Eh, I actually just put five in a room in the map I'm working on. so phooey. :(

dude it's like 3 or 4 in that room! There are two in that screenshot for goodness sake, and I only use 2 total! :P

[Reisal]

I think some are being a bit overcritical of NT's map, but that's just my thoughts.

[Xaser]

I probably should've clarified what I meant earlier. I was referring to these areas:



Hence why 'columns' was in semi-quotes. I wasn't sure what to refer to them as.

[NaturalTvventy]

Oh THOSE...

Yea those were originally a bit more funk-a-doo (see screen I posted on page 20) but then someone complained about wackiness so I rounded 'em out. They look better how they are now though, trust me.

[Grain of Salt]

Xaser said:

Hence why 'columns' was in semi-quotes. I wasn't sure what to refer to them as.

A buttress?

NaturalTvventy said:

Shitballs! I swear I remember using untagged lifts in my youth. Ah well, created memory. It's been fixed.

It's been a long time since I've been able to run vanilla, but I seem to remember that if you try to use an untagged action in vanilla, it applies it to the sectors tagged zero... which is every sector without a tag. It basically wrecks the map in about three seconds.

[NaturalTvventy]

New version of my e1 level, now with functional lifts, and barrels! (How'd I forget those on THIS level??) Some texture and item changes as well, such as an extra rad suit at the start of the slime trails.
http://www.mediafire.com/?tfnaj2q5v1rx67i

Also fixed version of e2 -
http://www.mediafire.com/?ovk3z7yyqmgcndn

Still need the textures for 'em -
http://www.mediafire.com/?c25blmk3wrjr9ek

Good night, and good luck.

NT

[DeathevokatioN]

I just had a quick run through NTs level and it's a very very cool map! TBH It actually feels more like an Ultimate DooM E1 map than most of the maps I've played in this thread, in that it has "crazy" angles and stuff BUUUT it still has a sense of place and a character of it's own like the original ID maps did, and unlike a lot of maps I'm seeing in this thread. :/

[tempun]

Mr. Chris said:

I do have an idea for maps that do not make it into the main four episodes...perhaps compile a "leftovers episode" so they don't completely go to waste?

I think original E4 *was* a leftover episode. (E4M3,E4M4)

[ellmo]

NaturalTvventy said:

New version of my e1 level (...)
http://www.mediafire.com/?tfnaj2q5v1rx67i

Also fixed version of e2 -
http://www.mediafire.com/?ovk3z7yyqmgcndn

Still need the textures for 'em -
http://www.mediafire.com/?c25blmk3wrjr9ek

I'd ignore your maps completely after reading "you need textures for them" if it wasn't for the fact that the E1 map is really good. Why in God's name do you insist on using textures that id never put in the game?

But to the point:
The E1 map looks absolutely great, it felt like E1M6 or E1M7. The only minor things I'm not sure about are the "nukage steps", the scrolling columns in the big nukage pool, but all in all the map seems to fit really good. I'm going to give it a more thorough look when I have the time.

The E2-one I didn't like. It felt too orthogonal, had too much detail, and was very heavy on dark, -vine textures. It kinda didn't feel like any E2 map and the new textures didn't help it.

[Lutz]

Screens from a potential E3 level (ignore the gross mis-alignments in #3):

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x404/chris_lutz/Doom%20Screenshots/Screenshot_Doom_20110103_152117.png
http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x404/chris_lutz/Doom%20Screenshots/Screenshot_Doom_20110103_152139.png
http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x404/chris_lutz/Doom%20Screenshots/Screenshot_Doom_20110103_231113.png

Comments are encouraged.

[ellmo]

Lutz said:

Screens from a potential E3 level (ignore the gross mis-alignments in #3)

Yaay, Limbo + Mt. Erebus! Looking good.


Updated screens on my mid/late E2 map:






The lights in shot#3 blink, so there's better atmosphere that a screenshot cannot show.

I'll upload the map as soon as the layout is finished. I'll ad monsters and items later.

[NaturalTvventy]

DeathevokatioN said:

I just had a quick run through NTs level and it's a very very cool map! TBH It actually feels more like an Ultimate DooM E1 map than most of the maps I've played in this thread, in that it has "crazy" angles and stuff BUUUT it still has a sense of place and a character of it's own like the original ID maps did, and unlike a lot of maps I'm seeing in this thread. :/

which one did you play? Glad you liked it.

ellmo said:

I'd ignore your maps completely after reading "you need textures for them" if it wasn't for the fact that the E1 map is really good. Why in God's name do you insist on using textures that id never put in the game?

But to the point:
The E1 map looks absolutely great, it felt like E1M6 or E1M7. The only minor things I'm not sure about are the "nukage steps", the scrolling columns in the big nukage pool, but all in all the map seems to fit really good. I'm going to give it a more thorough look when I have the time.

The E2-one I didn't like. It felt too orthogonal, had too much detail, and was very heavy on dark, -vine textures. It kinda didn't feel like any E2 map and the new textures didn't help it.

Thanks for the playthroughs. A bit late to the party my friend :) There's been much talk about using textures from the alpha versions of DOOM. See above.

Yea I took some creative libraries that you don't see in the original e1, like the steps and the spinning columns.

As far as the e2 level's orthogonality, e2 in general is by far the blockiest. Detail of mine is a bit much in places. I just can't help it!

Your screens look solid for sure! Good use of lighting, and the size of the hallways etc is just right. I look forward to a playtest.

Lutz said:

Screens from a potential E3 level (ignore the gross mis-alignments in #3):

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x404/chris_lutz/Doom%20Screenshots/Screenshot_Doom_20110103_152117.png
http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x404/chris_lutz/Doom%20Screenshots/Screenshot_Doom_20110103_152139.png
http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x404/chris_lutz/Doom%20Screenshots/Screenshot_Doom_20110103_231113.png

Comments are encouraged.

Needs more fully functioning gears, and maybe a tank or two :) Nah, looks stellar man.

NT

[ellmo]

NaturalTvventy said:

A bit late to the party my friend :) There's been much talk about using textures from the alpha versions of DOOM. See above.

Oh, I'm sorry, wasn't aware of that. I must've missed this information somewhere in the last 20 pages :)

As far as the e2 level's orthogonality, e2 in general is by far the blockiest. Detail of mine is a bit much in places. I just can't help it!

Hm, you might be right about it being the blockiest. There's an abundance of 90deg angles in most of the maps, true, but there's something I don't like about your approach. Maybe it's because it's dark and open. Really can't say now, my radar is off :) I hate to provide no creative criticism on this, sounds a bit as if I was saying "I don't like it because I don't like it", I'll try to be more specific when I give the map another go.

Your screens look solid for sure! Good use of lighting, and the size of the hallways etc is just right. I look forward to a playtest.

Thank you.
I'm a little worried this map may be a too-obvious homage to E2M6, that's why I'm trying to include architecture based on characteristic places in E2M4 and E2M5.

[Hellbent]

Those all look pretty darn authenticatious Lutz. Just want to remind people of this post: http://www.doomworld.com/vb/post/921642 Looks real good Lutz.

I love the combination of textures in the second pic ellmo. The skin indented behind the support2 is grooovy.

Mr. Chris, I am having a hard time locating your RC2 of your E2M4ish so I can finally begin work on the exit. Where in the blue blazes is it? Thanks!

NT/Xaser: Before I embark on my latest rant, I'd just like to say I appreciate your comments Xaser. But I think there is an important point to be made here about this project that applies to everyone. (Again, please counter my arguments as you see fit). Episode 1 was very consistent in its texture use, how it used textures and the type of architecture it used. As the episode progressed the architecture evolved slightly and the texture use slightly. But all in all, the whole thing is very consistent. This is because it was made by one author with a particular mapping style. Someone at the beginning of this project quoted Romero or Petersen to have said: "there are no rules" as a quid pro quo to the guidelines I was outlining to follow in order to mimic the original maps. But there clearly were. And the rules were to make a believable and consistent gameplay experience with a certain kind of atmosphere. Romero could get away with having 'no rules' because he was making up his own rules and he was making all the maps for the episode (except for E1M4, which brings up an interesting point of optimism that I will tie in at the end of this rant). If NT made the whole episode, it would also be consistent the way E1 is, because, like Romero, NT has a distinct mapping style: I see recurring themes and motifs in all his maps. If Alfonso made all the maps for Episode 2, it would also be consistent the way Petersen's E2 was, because Alfonso has a distinct mapping style as well. So here I shed light on an issue that presents a great challenge to the project: that it is asking of the mappers a great deal to map in an otherwise unnatural manner for the mappers: to abandon their own mapping style, to remove their egos from the project, to map for the greater good of the project, rather than as an opportunity to express their unique and creative interpretation of DooM. It's very difficult to mimic someone else's mapping style. I can't imagine trying to mimic NT's mapping style: it would be very hard! He has a very distinct style--you see it in all his maps--and for this project a bit too signature NT to be believable as maps made by Romero or Petersen. I think this is a very fair and apt observation and criticism. No one can fault you NT! It's just the nature of this project and it just shows ...again.... how much more difficult it is to pull off this project's original idea. I didn't realize how hard it would be to mimic Romero and Petersen. But how many Talented Mr. Ripley's are there? Not an easy task. Romero had a vision for E1 and he didn't have to follow any one else's rules--he made up his own rules to make the episode he wanted which was consonant with id's overall vision for the game (moody, atmospheric, fast paced, non-tedious-free flowing gameplay etc. etc.). So yes, for Romero and Petersen saying no rules as a cardinal rule was just fine and dandy. But since this project is about bringing together a bunch of different mappers with different styles, sensibilities, ideas, creativity etc., we have to somehow get everyone on the same page and to map all like Romero and Petersen! To do this, I think ultimately we will have to put in place rather strict rules to channel everyone's creativity into a similar vein of id purity. This does not mean the maps are all going to be carbon copies of each other... we need to tighten the consistency factor down on this project.

Clearly this is a very ambitious project. And yet... I don't think it is an insurmountable challenge. E1M4, in my mind, blends into episode 1 seamlessly as if Romero had made it himself. In fact, I keep thinking it's a Romero map, yet it is not, it was made by Petersen. The progress and evolution this project has made is testament to the possibility of what we can accomplish. Again, it comes down to the willingness of the mappers and their sharing in a collective vision.

Maybe this was why Episode 4 resorted to monochromatic themes for the levels (wood/marble), because it proved just too damn difficult to get everyone to map in the creative, abstract and evocative manner in which Petersen made his maps. It's a real testament to him that he was able to make those abstract, texturally flamboyant E2 maps and then match Romero's style with his E1M4 contribution. The man doesn't get enough credit.

All this rhetoric builds up to the point I want to make as it relates to NT's map: I think your E1M1 map sets the tone for a different episode than what Romero's did, mainly because of the heavy use of pipe textures and your unique style that you bring to the table. However, you get props for keeping an open layout with few doors (like E1M4).

[Reisal]

@Hellbent: here , I did look for it on the previous page as I do remember linking you to it in a quoted reply of yours.