DTWID: Project is done, check the release thread

[C30N9]

Lorenzo said:

I'm not sure. Which room are you speaking about?

[Xeros612]

Played through the "normal" E1 maps. (Read: 1-8)

Liking it so far. No glaring issues, not impossible to navigate (albeit a bit confusing in some of the later ones, until you walk yourself through with the automap), fun to play.

[Marnetmar]

Guys, play the DTWID alpha in Zdoom, open the console and type in 'Map E3M0' for a surprise!

You have been exposed, Xaser!

[Ghastly]

Marnetmar said:

Guys, play the DTWID alpha in Zdoom, open the console and type in 'Map E3M0' for a surprise!

You have been exposed, Xaser!

Is it a video of him playing Doom with his thumbs?

[Marnetmar]

Nah, it's just a secret map called Hell's Mosh Pit.

[Pedro VC]

I loved the wad, the autors were suceful in recreating the doom 1 atmosphere and the soundtrack (at most levels)is outstanding. Good Job!

Complaints:

E1M1 - A bit unimpressive for a first map
E1M5 - Homages very obvious, there are areas that reminds me of e1m5, e1m7, e1m4.....
E1M8 - Some bugs
E2M1 - Obvious insipiration
E2M3 - Very short map, have some bizarre structures also
E2M4 - Sometimes very frustrating, i had to use automap several times

I have not played E3 yet, but i really liked what i see unti now.

[Marnetmar]

A new E1M1 is in the works.

[Xaser]

After reading through things, I've got a few thoughts of my own on a couple of maps:

E1M1: Spaceport -- I do agree that it could use a bit of simplifying and maybe some edits to the start area to make it a bit more memorable. I like DooM_RO's suggestion about replacing the eastern section with a single room -- this could indeed work. I'll wait to see what Marnetmar comes up with, but I'm of the opinion that the map should be revised rather than replaced (given that we're talking about the same author for both).

E1M4: Alienation Zone -- I've got a bit of a soft spot for this map, but there have been a couple of concerns regarding its scale/style/whatnot. I'm thinking that maybe, if nothing else, the western area could do with a bit of expansion. It seems a bit cramped, and the skylight immediately beyond the blue door feels a bit out of place in its styling. Otherwise, I do really fancy it ('cept maybe that E1M4 tribute room... ;).

Regarding 40oz's E1 and E3 submissions -- My memory is a bit hazy now, but if I recall, my original thoughts behind not including them stemmed from a comment from 40 a while back that he only felt happy about his latest submission (Cooling Towers) and felt that the others were lacking / not id enough. Correct me if I'm remembering wrong / misquoting, though.

Having said that, I'm a bit mixed on his E1 submissions -- some areas hit the nail on the head, but on the whole, they feel to be missing something. Maybe it's the size -- they feel a bit large compared to their monster count (or maybe too big for E1 in general?). On the other hand, if an E4 is ever realized, I'd love to see a revised "Purgatorio" in it. :)

@40oz and Mr. Chris: I'm most certainly interested to see what revisions you've got in mind for E2M2 and E1M3. For the former, I agree that the start area could maybe use a bit of improvement. It seemed sufficiently id-enough, but felt disconnected with the rest of everything considering its large variance in style from the main area and the fact that they're separated only by a single, narrow hallway.

Also, hope I"m not spoiling things a bit, but St. Alfonzo has sent me a newer version of Kepler Dorsum, which is great. Certainly worth a see in the future. ;)


Now to respond directly a bit,

Mr. Chris said:

E2 needs more labs you say? There is my/Freeze's E2M4 level which works..

Cold Steel was an alpha candidate, but it was bumped when a few others were added. To be fair, it's a nice map, but the layout and styling doesn't really feel like an original Doom map. It's a great E2M4 tribute in its own right, but not something I'd see fitting alongside the IWAD maps.

Marnetmar said:

I think Me/Chris/PD1's E2M6 could fit in there as well.

Dark Passage? It's far too sprawling and maze-like in its current state. There are a couple of interesting areas, but they're all connected together with lots of nondescript hallways (which also seem to make up the largest portion of the map). What was there didn't exactly strike me with an id-like vibe, either. Most id maps, even the hallway-dominant ones like the original E2M6, had tons of areas with a good sense of 'identity' -- they looked unique, had plenty of landmarks, or at least were constructed in a memorable way. I don't see much of that here.

MegaDoomer said:

I see DPASS.zip in /incoming, and I'm assuming that is the map.

In that case I recommend against using separately released maps in the game.

In the cases where a DTWID map has also been submitted to /idgames separately, I am honoring the original fact that it was submitted to DTWID first, and not factoring in the submission for inclusion consideration (exception being my own E2M1, which will be featured in a future something and I only feel it's fair to release the slot to a worthy contender).

MegaDoomer said:

Any episode can always use more maps...after all, the nine best shall be the ones to make it!

Though this is certainly true, be warned that the Episode 1 market is quickly becoming saturated. It's going to be tough to replace what's there.

Marnetmar said:

Guys, play the DTWID alpha in Zdoom, open the console and type in 'Map E3M0' for a surprise!

You have been exposed, Xaser!

Nothing about me to be exposed. I didn't make it. ;)

[Marnetmar]

Ah I see.

What can I do to make Dark Passage better? Are there any hallway filled areas in particular that you think should be taken out?

[MegaDoomer]

Xaser said:

Though this is certainly true, be warned that the Episode 1 market is quickly becoming saturated. It's going to be tough to replace what's there.

I'm not sure I agree with that, but at the very least, I do not think the nine maps you've included are the best picks or in the best order.

I wouldn't necessarily call any of the E1 maps insufficient (that would probably only go to E2M3, E3M2, maybe E3M5, and E3M9 in the current alpha), but I definitely think it could use improvement or at least reordering. E1M1 is too large for a start map (though I hear a new one is in the works). E1M2 also seems way to extensive for such an early level. E1M3 is fine. E1M4-E1M7 all either lack difficutly settings (iori posted saying he's fixing that for E1M7 though) or have them only very weakly implemented. As for the maps otherwise, E1M4 is probably okay, but I remember clearly liking Lorenzo's other E1 submission, Pumping Station. E1M5-E1M9 seemed pretty good though. But I'd clearly get stewboy's map somewhere in the episode - maybe replacing E1M2? Also is there any reason you have in particular for including none of phobosdeimos1's maps? I find it a bit tough to believe his submissions here are lacking after playing Spire Complex.

I think we should handle this one episode at a time - get E1 entirely sufficient, and then work on E2. Oh, and maybe even upload E1 as a single episode to /idgames - ID did after all release the shareware version of Doom before the full one - don't forget that!

["JL" was too short]

Just want to say after having played all of E1 and a few maps of E2, that regardless of the nits still to be picked (and there are a few) all the maps are awesomely nostalgic and everyone who contributed should be proud of themselves.

That said, I agree with some comments, in particular I think someone said that E1M7 was too big and long. It's a convincing Episode 1 map but not a convincing id map, if you see the difference.

[Blastfrog]

E2M1 and E3M6 are way too homage-y.

Music grievances:

E2M2's music is rather crappy, to be honest. Probably the square wave, just doesn't fit, and the song is too repetitive and boring, not really atmospheric. Also, some of the songs sound fucking horrible in OPL, perhaps tweak the instruments until they sound good in both Roland synth and OPL.

There's also something else I wanted to say: while the music is very good, there are plenty of spots where it just doesn't sound like Doom music. Some of it doesn't quite have the style right, or the flow of the song. I suppose you could go by this if you ever plan to continue updating the music: if Bobby Prince wouldn't do it, don't.

Otherwise, you did a great job on the music!

Lastly, since you're done with this music, do you think you could throw together that midi based on un39.mid that I requested earlier? If not, that's cool. :)

[phobosdeimos1]

AMERICAN MCGEE HIMSELF Has given us this input:

"Hmmm... well, for one thing a LOT of time was spent on the details. In the depths of these developments myself, Romero and the other level editors would spend 12+ hours per day strapped to our desks and cranking out map content. We were seriously fast with the tools - and there was an internal rivalry (positive) that drove a lot of the excellence - each level designer trying to outdo the other on quality, design and fun factor. I often think the lack of that rivalry and time dedication is what leads to the visual/design differences between "professional" and "non-professional" maps. Really well made maps, no matter who is making them, require time, attention to detail and a plan that leads to a clearly defined goal.
 
In terms of specific feedback... I always started my maps with a design goal in mind. It might have been abstract like "a map designed specifically for really fast and fluid deathmatch" or functional like "a map designed to convey narrative, a shipping warehouse connected to a space dock where it's clear a lot of workers died". From that design goal would come the constraints that led initial selection of textures, materials and architectural design features. A pure DM map meant fewer textures with clear highlights on edges/geometric features, clean layout built for player movement/strategy and flow built around placement of items critical to DM. A narrative-driven map meant thinking about the utility of the space, how people would work/live in that environment, what story could be told through signs, decals and lighting; a sense of progression (start, middle, end) as player moved through the space and a consistent logic to the design choices (as if they entire area had been designed by a single architecture firm and built by a single construction firm).
 
Though these spaces we build are off-world and fantastic, the design choices made need to look/feel like they've come from NASA engineers or modern architects. Tadao Ando and Ron Cobb were my two biggest inspirations when it came to clean, functional but futuristic design when we were working on the DOOM series. Ando works with materials and light in a really simple, beautiful and functional way. Cobb is the master of "functional fictions" - the creation of futuristic machines that look like they'd really work. Heavy, simple, solid stuff.
 
And yes, I paid a lot of attention to stuff like texturing. It's the little details that sell the fiction. Choose a border texture for inset lights (always inset your lights!) and stick with it whenever you put a light into a certain type of material. Same goes with steps and height transitions. Never transition from one texture to another one the same plane - always create a height break or other 'explanation' for the transition (door, light, joint, structural seam, etc). Don't do these things after the fact - choose your materials first, based on your design goal. Same as if you were constructing a real house/building. And use the materials as if they were real (i.e. don't create 1 inch thin concrete hanging overhead with no support). Don't use big, busy textures in small spaces. That's one reason I tended to prefer metal, concrete and other "real" materials - because they made more visual sense and were easy to apply constraints to.
 
For me, it always came back to that... constraints. Nothing real exists without limitations and inventions forced by constraints. Things look real because there are limits to what we can do with materials and expectations for the way things should behave. Build your maps as if the spaces and uses within them are real - and the results will feel real.
 
Hope that helps :)
 
-a"

[MegaDoomer]

jerrysheppy said:

Just want to say after having played all of E1 and a few maps of E2, that regardless of the nits still to be picked (and there are a few) all the maps are awesomely nostalgic and everyone who contributed should be proud of themselves.

That said, I agree with some comments, in particular I think someone said that E1M7 was too big and long. It's a convincing Episode 1 map but not a convincing id map, if you see the difference.

That's another idea, and possibly also applies to the current E1M2 and E1M6 (for any slot in E1 as well). I'm sure there are enough E1 maps around to pick at least three smaller maps that fit the ID style very nicely. stewboy's map might be a lot more appropriate for E1M7 in this project, even if as an actual map it isn't as epic.

I don't think anything made for this should go to waste though - so I'd almost lean towards putting the best nine maps, all things considered (including the project's intent - that's very important), in E1 of DTWID, then do the same for E2 and E3 (though as in my previous post I don't think that should be the primary focus yet, get E1 out the door first just as ID did).

Then all the maps (for any episode) that were not included for whatever reason could be released in a separate wad, trying to fill each episode with the nine best maps that were nonetheless rejected from the main release for whatever reason, and continuing that process with more uploads until there's no maps left. (Kind of similar to what Doomworld did with 10 Sectors.) The names could be along the lines of DTWID Runners Up, DTWID Runners Up II, DTWID Runners Up III, etc. And when it inevitably gets to the point in which only E1 maps are left, just make every episode have the E1 sky and fitting music and fill it up until nothing's left. I'm guessing the main release and a first runner up will take care of everything submitted for E2 and E3 so far, so the second runner up would be a pack full of the remaining E1 maps.

[MegaDoomer]

Sorry for the double post, but:

I just got to say that, in general, especially after reading some of the posts that were made just as I made mine, I'm really starting to think this idea of using top "all things considered" candidates for the main release and then doing runners up so no map is left wasted (as there is obviously a HUGE difference between saying a map does not do a particularly great job at emulating the ID style dead on and saying the map should not be released to the archive in any form - the current E1M7 is a pristine example of this as it's too extensive to be a great ID emulation but it absolutely and positively is still a great map that should make it to /idgames) is the way to go.

I think that since E1 has the most submissions, that's only another reason to concentrate and get it out of the way first - as there are so many submissions for this episode and so many authors just generally using this style in their own maps that I find it near impossible to believe there aren't at least nine perfect fits. Then picking the candidates for E2 and E3 may be a little easier (even if one or both of these episodes fail to have nine perfectly ID-style submissions).

[Hellbent]

MegaDoomer said:

I think we should handle this one episode at a time - get E1 entirely sufficient, and then work on E2. Oh, and maybe even upload E1 as a single episode to /idgames - ID did after all release the shareware version of Doom before the full one - don't forget that!

This is actually an excellent point. Maybe we should just focus on getting e1 really top notch and getting that released and then work on the other two episodes.

[MegaDoomer]

Hellbent said:

This is actually an excellent point. Maybe we should just focus on getting e1 really top notch and getting that released and then work on the other two episodes.

Thanks for agreeing! :) - I honestly was doubtful this idea would catch on but it's really the best way to proceed IMO - both all things conidered and also specifically considering that ID released the shareware before the full game.

And given you're the one who started the project, I'm pretty sure it'll get approval considering you think it's an excellent thought yourself. :)

Maybe call the upload something like "Shareware the way ID Did". But obviously, any better ideas for a name of this preliminary/initial E1-only release would be welcome for consideration. :)

[-_DLD_-]

I honestly really liked E2M1. Even though it was homage-y, it felt like something new at the same time. I was playing through the map, expecting certain E2M1 things, which were there, but it was a fun experience nonetheless.

E2M2 was a lot of fun. I enjoyed poking around that level for sure.

E2M3 is way, way too short. The level could easily be tripled or quadrupled in size. I love the layout/visuals, though.

E2M4 (just finished it before stopping), was a great map. This next part is related to some of the secrets in the map, so I'm spoilering it for those that want to find out for themselves.

Spoiler

The weird walls kept making me think. Since I think I found them all (I got 100% secrets), I'm wondering, how do they corrispond to the level? Does each one open a segment of the "big secret" area(s)? Are they just spooky decoration?

[Xaser]

Hmm, I'm not entirely sold that focusing on just E1 is entirely necessary. We've got a pretty even distribution of authors across the episodes, and the polishing process for each episode should happen roughly at the same speed. And even though it is indeed what it did, separating E1 as a different release just seems like a gimmick, to me.

Curse my odd contrary opinions to most things. :P

@-DLD-: Thanks re: E2M1. It might not be exactly DTWID stuff, but it's found its home in something that it'll hopefully complement well. T'was certainly a fun little map to make. :)

[MegaDoomer]

Xaser said:

Hmm, I'm not entirely sold that focusing on just E1 is entirely necessary. We've got a pretty even distribution of authors across the episodes, and the polishing process for each episode should happen roughly at the same speed. And even though it is indeed what it did, separating E1 as a different release just seems like a gimmick, to me.

Curse my odd contrary opinions to most things. :P

@-DLD-: Thanks re: E2M1. It might not be exactly DTWID stuff, but it's found its home in something that it'll hopefully complement well. T'was certainly a fun little map to make. :)

You are cursed!

Nah, just kidding. Certainly have the right to your opinion. :) And the points you made are valid to at least some extent (although I don't agree with the gimmick thing, and it wouldn't be permanently separated - the file would be overwritten with the full DTWID when all three eps are done). But if Hellbent wants it there's a good chance it'll move forwards. I know & understand that's bad news from your perspective, unless you can adapt - but it's pretty hard to argue - he is after all the project's founder.

If it was mid fall already I'd suggest deadlining E1 to be ready for shipping by December 10 - what an awesome present it would be for Doom to get for becoming an adult! But as is, only in July, that would be wasting too much time, to take four months to just finalize one episode that already has a ton of maps made for it. Maybe deadline the full release to December 10?

[Xaser]

MegaDoomer said:

Maybe deadline the full release to December 10?

I'm totally for that. Actually, it seems daft to me to release the final product on any other day, now that you've mentioned it. ;P

[Moustachio]

Maybe, we could release the first three episodes earlier, but release an Ultimate Doom: The Way id Did on Dec. 10.

[elic]

Wouldn't releasing it on 12/10 piss off the people running the Cacowads?

[MegaDoomer]

Matt534Dog said:

Maybe, we could release the first three episodes earlier, but release an Ultimate Doom: The Way id Did on Dec. 10.

That's conditional upon the having the first three episodes ready well before December 10.

I still think E1 should be released when it's ready, the three-episode should be released on December 10 unless it is ready much sooner than that (over a couple weeks sooner), and the Ultimate Doom release, if the project goes this far, should be released on December 10 if the three-episode version got out earlier and when it's done otherwise.

Unless it is the final opportunity (all four episodes), I would not hold any release up more than about a half a month just to make the December 10th date. If it's ready Thanksgiving or later, then it could be appropriate to delay it for the big date, otherwise not except if it is a final four episode release.

["JL" was too short]

-_DLD_- said:

E2M4 (just finished it before stopping), was a great map. This next part is related to some of the secrets in the map, so I'm spoilering it for those that want to find out for themselves.

I just started E2M5, and so far E2M4 is the map I've been most impressed with. It really feels like it was made by someone who gets Episode 2. The details you referred to are a great touch even though I don't know any more than you do if they link to a super secret (I only got 3/8 of the secrets).

Also, I have to say that while the sudden-death trap at the start of E2M5 is amusing it doesn't seem one bit id-like (Barrels o' Fun notwithstanding). Lose it.

[MegaDoomer]

Processingcontrol said:

Wouldn't releasing it on 12/10 piss off the people running the Cacowads?

No, it would be a 2012 cacoward.

The "Doom year X" runs from 12/10/X-1 to 12/9/X.

Whatever version is released prior to December 10 could be considered for awards in 2011 and then, given sufficient quality of any added material, it could get another award in 2012 for the expanded content. Or the whole project could just get one award in 2012. Either is allowable as far as I know.

[MegaDoomer]

jerrysheppy said:

Also, I have to say that while the sudden-death trap at the start of E2M5 is amusing it doesn't seem one bit id-like (Barrels o' Fun notwithstanding). Lose it.

Although the focus should be on E1, I fully agree with that E2M5 thing.

Plus the map was submitted as an E3 map - it shouldn't be in E2 anyways!

[MegaDoomer]

Alright - I've come up with what I think would be the ideal plan!

1) Focus on E1 primarily at first. August or September would probably be the best months to get it out the door.

2) With multiple months in between, target finalizing E2 and E3 for December 10th - it will be such an incredible gift for reaching adulthood!

3) If interested in E4, plan for a release in late May or early June 2012. The reason being is that 18 is a common age to graduate high school at. So E4 could be Doom's HS graduation present. :)

[Xaser]

MegaDoomer said:

Although the focus should be on E1...

Discouraging comments for the other two episodes is highly counterproductive.

Also, I like that barrel trap. Feels nice & fresh. Might not have appeared in the IWAD, but it's not completely out of the realm of something Petersen might pull.

MegaDoomer said:

Plus the map was submitted as an E3 map - it shouldn't be in E2 anyways!

I stated my reasons for this a while back. Also relevant:

Phobus said:

...my map does seem to fit well in E2M5, and indeed E2 in general, as things stand. I'd say leave it for now.

[EDIT] There's an edit button, by the way...

[MegaDoomer]

Xaser said:

Discouraging comments for the other two episodes is highly counterproductive.

Also, I like that barrel trap. Feels nice & fresh. Might not have appeared in the IWAD, but it's not completely out of the realm of something Petersen might pull.


I stated my reasons for this a while back. Also relevant:




[EDIT] There's an edit button, by the way...

You're right about counter-productivity, I'm sure ID probably was doing a little work on other episodes even when still focusing on E1 anyways.

And if you and Phobus think it fits well in E2 - leave it there. I don't think the barrel trap is appropriate though.

And I posted what I think would be the "ideal schedule" of deadlines a few posts up..