DTWID: Project is done, check the release thread

[40oz]

pcorf said:

After the disgrace of WOS, I want to limit symmetry in my upcoming maps.

Oh come on man. No one's a one-hit-wonder. You cant make every release perfect and the more you make maps and release them and read your feedback the better you'll get. UAC Ultra won a cacoward this year and when I look at it now there are tons of things I wanna do differently if I had known then what I know now. There's a lot of stuff in it that I thought was awesome at the time but now I think are kinda shitty. However, I wouldn't have learned nearly as much as I did if I had chose not to release it out of fear of the responses it would get.

I think you should take mapping a little less seriously. Still maintain your attention to detail but bear in mind that people are only telling you whats bad about it so that you can be informed on how to do better. We see your potential and we like to see you continue mapping. I thought my id-maps were perfect when I first released them. There was nothing I wanted to change at the time I released em but upon, receiving negative feedback, which is what I was really sifting for, I found that it isn't perfect and sought to create a better one. I think the people here can speak on my behalf that my maps are definitely looking better since I started with this project.

[Death Egg]

Wait, how is WOS a disgrace in any way? That's one of the best megawads I've seen! (Unrelated, didn't pcorf say he might do a ZDoom-based sequel? )

[Reisal]

Here's just a few screens of the map I am working on...







Since the editor screenshot, I added another section to it.

[Hellbent]

Marcaek said:

When my new comp gets here maybe I'll try some Id-style mapping.

Looking good Mr. Chris. Is this for E1 or E2? If E1, I'm not sure about that floor. Also, no support3 in the Shareware E1 IWAD. I would say given the floor choice and support 3 this is an e2 map...?

I am playing around with some E1 ideas right now. One thing I like to do sometimes, especially when editing for E1, is to copy an area from a level that particularly inspires me and then paste it into the blank editor and use it as a reference for area and sector size, sector shape and heights as well as texture use, while I build a new area.

[DeathevokatioN]

TrueDude said:

Wait, how is WOS a disgrace in any way? That's one of the best megawads I've seen!

Same here, I didn't really enjoy the base maps of it, but the latter half is pure sex. I especially loved the levels that were themed after Heretic and Hexen as well as Map29! Some of the coolest maps are in that level set. Nothing wrong with a bit symmetry. :)

[Snakes]

The combination of blue flats and stone/hexagonal textures has always reminded me of E2M4 more than any other map, along with the use of comps. Hopefully, some of the gargoyle faces start popping up!

[Marnetmar]

Looks good and fun to play Mr Chris, my criticism is that it seems to use a bit too much of the blue computer textures and it's a bit too open.

Marcaek said:

About the long passage, try breaking it up with a small room or 2. Can we get a few screenshots of the inside of the passage? I might be able to recommend some additions, based on the hallway's appearance

I only really need to post one, because it pretty much looks like this through the entire way. It's a secret area anyway, you have to open a door remotely to get to it ;)

[Mr. Freeze]

Eh, what the hell.

If anyone needs a tuneup or a partner, I'm available. PM me if interested.

[pcorf]

TrueDude said:

Wait, how is WOS a disgrace in any way? That's one of the best megawads I've seen! (Unrelated, didn't pcorf say he might do a ZDoom-based sequel? )

I was thinking of a sequel but its not going to happen. But I'm probably going to work on a new episode of 9 maps over the next few months or so. Got 8 more to do. I'm thinking of naming the episode "Incineration" and it will be vanilla compatible.

Nah, the Hell maps are pretty good in WOS, esp MAP25 and MAP28. But all the comments I got regarding MAP06. I learned a new thing after releasing WOS and never even knew what the word symmetry meant. Now I do.

And with this project I may reconsider joining to make an E1 style level sometime down the track.

[Reisal]

Hellbent said:

*thumbs up smiley*

Looking good Mr. Chris. Is this for E1 or E2? If E1, I'm not sure about that floor. Also, no support3 in the Shareware E1 IWAD. I would say given the floor choice and support 3 this is an e2 map...?

Yes, this is an E2 map..more or less a mid-level E2 level btw. I take it you played my previous E2M4 map I linked to earlier?

Snakes said:

The combination of blue flats and stone/hexagonal textures has always reminded me of E2M4 more than any other map, along with the use of comps. Hopefully, some of the gargoyle faces start popping up!

Yes, this has some pretty strong E2M4 vibes and does have some gargoyle faces in it!

Mr. Freeze said:

Eh, what the hell.

If anyone needs a tuneup or a partner, I'm available. PM me if interested.

Sure, I wouldn't mind..as this could get the map done quicker.

[40oz]

pcorf said:

And with this project I may reconsider joining to make an E1 style level sometime down the track.

I think you totally should. I could tell from your map that it didn't do a whole lot to seperate your own typical mapping style from id's. However, you do many things in your mapping out of natural habit that are reflective of the things you'd see in an id map. I like your usage of linedef actions like raisng bridges and building stairs. I like your usage of secret areas too. Also take into consideration, if you don't think you can get the monster placement right, consider just making the map without the monsters and letting someone else take over?

[Hellbent]

Natural Tvventy how did you go about building the level? I'm curious about your process.

NaturalTvventy wrote on 12-20-10 21:00:
Oh let's see. I just started with the idea of creating the monster face and went from there. My best levels are those where I draw stuff with the map, because it keeps things set at a certain boundary, as well as automatically makes odd shapes around the edges. Anyways, I drew out the outline of the face with the eyeballs with a few sectors and then I went from there. I decided to break it up into three sections so that when the player walks through a key door they enter a different-looking area. First the cave area, then the bright trippy area, and then finally the hellskin part. I was usually one room ahead of myself in my mind, so I always am motivated to get done what I'm working on so I can start the next area.

It's great that you have in mind the next part while you are working on the present part. That is the best way to map I think. I think people who can do that are more likely to make a cohesive map since the current area is informing what the next area will be like.

I'm trying to keep with the principles I see in DOOM.WAD. Beyond the funky-shaped rooms and odd angles (something I always employ in my WADs) I also try for minimalistic detail. Many rooms are one sector only in the original DOOM. The DOOM team let the textures be the detail. I failed pretty hard at this concept with Forgotten Caverns, especially at the start. Too many sectors. But when I try to make one-sector rooms it all looks so bland to me. I don't know how ID did it.

I just realized this as well the extent to which id's detail was done through texture use: look at the raised walkway that leads to the yellow key on E1M7 for exapmle.

I also notice a minimal use of doors and lifts. I think that each of these should mean something. Modern wads have a gazillion switches and doors. It slows the gameplay way down. It really breaks up the flow of the level and makes it seem like everything is set in pieces. I try to avoid that when I can, so the player can run around the level uninterrupted.

Yes, id didn't make isolated rooms separated by doors. Look at E1M7, it's all just one area flowing into another. This is true for the hallways as well. Yes, there are tons of changes in ceiling heights in E1M7 as well. I don't know how to mimic it either. I think I will do some close analysis of the levels over break and see if I can't come up with some more insights on this.

This also brings up the point of block sound lines. I haven't put enough emphasis on their use. Sound travels through one block sound line, but is blocked by two. I think it would do well for mappers to try to gain a better understanding of how id used 'block sound' flags in each map.

I also believe that a level should have just as many interesting floor and ceiling changes as they do lifts and doors. Things like the walls opening up, the red rocks lowering after the yellow door, and the crusher/autoplatform area.

Well I'm going to play through e2 and see if I can get inspiration. Not sure what the next level will be. Maybe I'll make one level for each episode :) I really like this project. The funnest WADs I ever played were doom.wad and doom2.wad. It may be more nostalgia then actual quality, but I don't know. I can still blast through the game and still enjoy it more then any other custom WAD out there.

No, I agree, I keep coming back to the original wads. I often wonder if its nostalgia, familiarity or something else, but I think it's because these guys understood gameplay balance and ambience the best. Many subsequent level packs suffer from several things that doom maps generally avoid: 1, they are too uniform/repetitive in their design (like episode 4 for my feeling) or are too random in their diversity or too long/tedious (Final Doom's TNT comes to mind), and/or they lack the abstractness that both doom and doom 2 have in spades. That's the whole reason I wanted to do this project: to see if Doom really was special--or if it was only special because it was our first experience of a revolutionary game. My experience from working on this project is that there really is something to these levels. I think the difficulty of mimicking them without copying them is testament to this.

I would also add quiet areas to the list. I've been playing through e2 and there are tons of rooms and areas with no monsters. This I also think is quite important, as when every inch of a level has something to shoot nothing is surprising and I find the whole thing becomes a monotonous grind.

Yes, Alfonso pointed this out, too. I think this is really important as well.

[Mr. Freeze]

What are we doing in terms of music? I know that Doom's unreleased music was mentioned before, and I'd be willing to write/edit some tracks myself.

[Hellbent]

Mr. Freeze said:

What are we doing in terms of music? I know that Doom's unreleased music was mentioned before, and I'd be willing to write/edit some tracks myself.

That would be great!

[Mr. Freeze]

Hellbent said:

That would be great!

Do you know where said tracks are?

[Hellbent]

Mr. Freeze said:

Do you know where said tracks are?

I don't, but I hope someone on here will chime in where they can be downloaded from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXuQT7wh0aw

[Reisal]

I find my map collaboration with Freeze fits the level slot perfectly as the original fits the music well.

[40oz]

Mr. Freeze said:

Do you know where said tracks are?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=unreleased+doom+music&l=1

[Mr. Freeze]

Got the tracks off of Romero's blog. Some good stuff here, tbh.

If we're doing a full episode replacement, that means I'll have to put together at least 30 tracks ._.

Well, I know what I'll be doing for the next few months. I'll post them here as I complete them.

[Hellbent]

[AveryMaurice]

Can't believe I haven't seen this until now, I loved the original Doom maps and look forward to this greatly. Good luck you guys.

[Marcaek]

I would also add quiet areas to the list. I've been playing through e2 and there are tons of rooms and areas with no monsters.

This, combined with the music, is one of the things that makes E2M4 so memorable. I always thought E2M4 was one of the most atmospheric Doom levels. It's a creepy place :)

Marnetmar, that hallway could use a small, taller room with some wall consoles. Stick one in there and use COMP2 with LITE4 for the console recesses.

EDIT:Started a E2M1-style level, planning on adding an observatory where the 'bump' in the first big room is:

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/465/mce2m1.png

Also, some shots of another E1 style map sitting on my HD:


http://img5.imageshack.us/i/screenshotdoom201012211.png/
http://img204.imageshack.us/i/screenshotdoom201012211.png/
http://img80.imageshack.us/i/screenshotdoom201012211.png/

[Hellbent]

Marcaek said:
This, combined with the music, is one of the things that makes E2M4 so memorable. I always thought E2M4 was one of the most atmospheric Doom levels. It's a creepy place :)

Yes.

Marnetmar, that hallway could use a small, taller room with some wall consoles. Stick one in there and use COMP2 with LITE4 for the console recesses.

You mean to break up the length of the hallway? If so, then also the 'room' should be brightly lit.

[Mechadon]

This project is looking to be pretty awesome. I really like the concept; it seems to be producing some very classic-styled maps and architecture. I'd jump in and contribute if I weren't so busy. That and I'm not sure how well I'd be able to execute this style of mapping. I wish you guys luck and I'm looking forward to a release :)

[Walter confetti]

Marcaek said:

some maps pictures

Ehy... doesn't look so bad!

Just erase that light stuff from the room in 3rd shot, and put some lite96 like in this example, also change the CEMENTx textures in the room of 4th room, cement is unseen until e2m2!

Study carefully the DOOM.WAD when you mapping, i'll did in this way when i make my maps... and talking about my maps, e3m1 (i've got a title idea today... Evil Breach?) will be good again? Or, if not, i will change\delete homages present in the map...

Also got another idea of a "infernal village" in e3m2 (no title yet) after the red brick maze at beginning (it will involve also the original section of that way too similar e3m2 canyon) but is all in my mind... sure is hard try to mimic ID style!

[Marcaek]

That E1 map isn't purely E1, if I do anything with it I'm just using the first room.

Here's my E2M1 map, pretty basic, open to suggestion:

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/25837261/MCdtwid_e2m1.wad

Try it on Nightmare :P

[NaturalTvventy]

Marcaek said:

That E1 map isn't purely E1, if I do anything with it I'm just using the first room.

Here's my E2M1 map, pretty basic, open to suggestion:

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/25837261/MCdtwid_e2m1.wad

Try it on Nightmare :P

My thoughts -

It felt like a good base but there's a lot that could be improved. Esthetically my biggest suggestion would be to raise the ceiling in most of the map. Most of those rooms are quite wide, and the ceiling feels unnaturally low. The wider the room, the taller the ceiling should be, and your ceilings could use a good 128 bump at least.

Either that or maybe even better, shrink the areas. There's a ton of room to move. It feels like there's far too much empty space. I'd try to tighten it up a good deal myself.

My other main advice would be to vary the light level a lot more. I like to be able to see at least two strongly contrasting light levels anywhere I look in a level. This one hovers around 160 pretty steadily throughout. For sure mix it up.

Gameplay wise I'd say it's too much of an obvious rip of e3m1. The texturing is very similar. The very first view feels nearly identical. And the wall lowering at the end to reveal cacos makes it even more obvious.

It's rather linear too, and the weapons you pick up are just along the way without any sort of effort being put into getting them. The chaingun and the plasma should require more brainpower to find.

I say keep working on it, add some new textures, smaller rooms, and a few other paths to explore.

NT

[NaturalTvventy]

One quick suggestion...

I've been playing through a lot of people's levels tonight. One thing I noticed is that when people are using SP_DUDE and the like it is oftentimes just a normal wall in a room. ID always had these textures at a distance from the player. It was usually viewed through a window, or up high away from the player's field of view unless the player is a fair distance away. This was to lessen the appearance that these poor bastards are just painted onto the walls in 2 dimensions. I suggest employing the same technique in your WADs if you do indeed use these textures.

NT

[Hellbent]

Okay, I've finally broken down and started work on what should have been produced at the outset of this project: a break down of the major tropes used in Doom that need detailed analysis. Here are the topics I will address over the coming days and weeks and months. As always, I hope you guys continue to jump in on the conversation with your great insights!

Chapter 1: Not many doors...

Chapter 2: Texturing is the detail...

Chapter 3: Contrast also keeps it from being bland...

Chapter 4: Monsters in their places; how block sound linedefs are used in the absence of doors....

Chapter 5: Absence of Monsters enhances the mood...

Chapter 6: Separation of areas...

Chapter 7: When floors rise from the mire and other rising entities...

Chapter 8: 'Special' linedef types...

Chapter 9: Teleports...

Chapter 10: Secrets...

Chapter 11: Common texture combinations that define each episode...

These are the topics I think are really important and need close attention to when making your maps.

Chapter 1: Not many doors.

So, as has been pointed out recently and once at the beginning of this thread by Essel, Doom levels generally don't have many doors! There are some exceptions, like E3M5, but they are done in this level in a unique way. First, the doors are not normal door textures, and two, there is a rhyme/reason to where those doors occur in the map, right?

Let's first take a look at non-special doors in Doom and what function they perform.

Not counting doors opened remotely by a switch, secret doors, doors opened by keys, exit doors or doors that otherwise operate in a non-direct fashion, let's look at how many plain ol' regular operating doors doom levels have. Remember, this list only discusses doors opened in a direct fashion (ie, has a door texture and you press space on it):

Episode 1.

• E1M1: 1 normal ol' regular door: it divides the beginning area from the rest of the level.
  
  
• E1M2: two doors that give access to the same area and which have an important purpose: two stairwells leading up to the red key.
  
  
• E1M3: door opens to reveal the level and a sudden onslaught of pain. Another door opens without much fanfair. It separates the horseshoe around the slime pit from the rest of the level and gives you a chance to explode some zombies; it pretty much mirrors the function of the blue key door at the other end of the horseshoe. One more door performs apparently little function and merely breaks up the passageway. It's main function is probably to keep the monsters behind it from being activated until the door is opened.
  
  Notice how at the far end of the bridge over the slime that there is no door: take note of how Romero separated the bridge area from the area that is beyond the bridge. (More on separation of areas in Chapter 5).
  
  
• E1M4: The first regular door's function is once again to open up to the level. The doors to the blue key and chaingun function more as a special door than a regular ol' door as they are WR activated and don't 'lead anywhere'. The only other regular door in this entire level is the one that reveals to you the last room in the level before the exit chamber (the one off of the famous blue room with the boxes of rockets). I think for its lack of doors and therefor high use of block sounds and deaf monsters--this would be a good level to study.
  
  
• E1M5: Only one regular operating door. Separates the beginning part of the level from the central part of the level (the horseshoe around the slime). Again, a good level to study for types of doors, general lack of doors, how areas are connected without the use of doors, and block sounds. Notice how stairs often connect one area to another.
  
  
• E1M6: Again, only one 'normal' door. It also divides the beginning of the level from the rest of the level. What are we noticing here? Are doors thrown in trivially? No, doors are not errantly used; they are well thought out where they will be placed and how they will operate and what effect they will have on the gameplay and the player's experience.
  
  
• E1M7: Often hailed as the holy grail of episode 1. Like E1M6, it also has one door near the end of the level that is opened by a remote switch (E1M6's switch is located at the top of the level if you recall). And like E1M3 and E1M4, has a normal door separating a small quiet start room from the ravenous rage of the hellspawn just beyond. This is the only normal humdrum door in the entire level! All other doors are either secret doors or are locked with keys. So what have we learned about Episode 1? Regular ol' doors are few and far betwween!
  
  
• E1M8 One regular old door. It's function is to create suspense and finality as you walk down the last passageway before the final confrontation.
  
  

What other observations? The later levels (E1M6 and E1M7) have doors that block you from progressing late in the level and require hitting a remote switch to open. The beginning levels (E1M2, E1M3) have doors that open by remote switches, but open near the beginning of the level and open to non-essential parts of the level (in E1M2 it's a secret area, in E1M3 it's a quasi secret area that leads to bonafide secret areas). This can be taken as a form of contrast that extends beyond light and dark, low and high, earth and fire, silence and pandemonium.

Episode 2

• E2M1: No 'normal' doors at all. Teleports are introduced to the player and are the primary separators of areas and gameplay.
  
  
• E2M2: Only one normal door that gains you access to a non essential area that is connected to two secret areas, both which require a yellow key to access: the one you can see through the window is accessed elsewhere through a yellow door and the yellow door in the room.
  
  
• E2M3: An area at the start of the level is separated by a normal door which gives access to some essentials for the journey ahead.

I think by now the point is made about normal doors. Why so much attention on doors? Because it's important to think about when doors are used; what function they perform and how they affect the flow and transition of the map. Also, it means that there are lots of areas that have transitions that don't rely on doors. E2M2 is a great example of this. It's also a good level to look at how block sounds are used and how they make for dynamic monster behavior.

Other things worth noting about doors.

E2M5 has no doors that require keys. It is the only level in the game as such, except of course E1M1.

Episode 3 textures a lot of non-secret doors with non-door textures, particularly E3M4 (tekwall 4 is used a lot) and E3M5 (metal1 is used a lot).

[DeathevokatioN]

Finding different coloured textures that contrast nicely with eachother is easily the most underated form of detailing. It can make a room look great, no matter how little detailed it is.