My collection of hardworked records for various IWADs and PWADs (such as HN13-223)

[TendaMonsta]

I just started watching these and I'm really enjoying them. I may not watch all of them, but I really enjoy your strategies. I can't really say much because I'm not much of a talker (typist), but thank you for notifying me about your demos because it was a real treat to see another keyboarder like ggg, revved, ryback and vdgg. Also the Kapustin bros.

[SAV88]

dew said:

i gotta admit i'm not a fan of requiem.. the wad is sweet to play, but doesn't have demoing qualities, certainly not fit for c-n.

It's your personal point of view. Different world-class doomers prefer different styles of gameplay. Some people prefer classic little fights with lightweight opposition (like in Doom episode 1) and record excellently optimized demos for such levels. Some enjoy quick violent slaughters (Plutonia, Scythe, etc). Some like to play complexly designed Requiem/MM2-type levels with measured medium-weight monster-sets and balanced medium-power weaponry. One of them is VDGG, who is not a fan of Scythe. And some people specialize on heavy BFG/RL battles with overwhelming hordes (a wonderful example is ToD's performance in AV261242.LMP).

I enjoy every of these four types of UV Max gameplay. And all Requiem maps that I did UV Maxes for are very well-fitting for this category, IMO. They are even very suitable for recording true Compet-N-style demos in UV Speed genre, just more challenging than normal. As I wrote in RQ15-156.TXT, i enjoy watching classic Mini-Speedruns, but personally prefer more extreme Mega-Speedruns. The Green Herring is right, it's good to be daring even on long dangerous levels (some great examples are Kimo's H226-218, Anima's H223-258 and Oyvind's MM15-255).

[TendaMonsta]

Do you have a youtube account SAV88?

[SAV88]

@TendaMonsta:
No, I don't convert demos into videos. I personally find them much more enjoyable to watch in the standard, native video mode of a DOS executable or PrBoom. Pity that Okuplok didn't upload his breaktaking HR2 MAP32 UV Max in 10:55 to DSDA as a LMP file. Same for Kimo's HR2 MAP12 speedrun in 0:38.

[Qaatar]

SAV88 said:

@TendaMonsta:
Pity that Okuplok didn't upload his breaktaking HR2 MAP32 UV Max in 10:55 to DSDA as a LMP file.

That's a shame. With enough effort, I think ToD might be able to do a 9:xx though.

[TimeOfDeath]

SAV88 said:

HR2 MAP32 UV Max in 10:55

huh? Did he make another youtube account?

[TendaMonsta]

He brought his old account back. He's had it for awhile actually. You should check it out!

[SAV88]

TimeOfDeath said:

huh? Did he make another youtube account?

Yes, he returned to Youtube as "Okuplok90". This particular demo is here.

[TimeOfDeath]

I can't use youtube or any flash with my dial-up connection. Do you guys know if he has the lmp?

[Qaatar]

That's the problem...he hasn't shared the lmp to my knowledge. If he had, a lot of us would have known about it, but it's only on Youtube apparently.

I don't check every Doomer's video on Youtube, so I only found out about it when SAV88 mentioned it in his post yesterday.

[kimo_xvirus]

SAV88 said:

Same for Kimo's HR2 MAP12 speedrun in 0:38.

Sadly I lost that demo. I've tried several times to improve it with a more daring route (running back on bridge after getting the yellow key instead of waiting for the wall to lower, and less waiting before the final switch) but I didn't exit once.

As for Okuplok, he doesn't want to share his demos here saying he will be accused. I tried to convince him till he told me vaguely that he will post them one day :X

[Qaatar]

kimo_xvirus said:

As for Okuplok, he doesn't want to share his demos here saying he will be accused. I tried to convince him till he told vaguely me he will post them one day :X

Pretty sure no one gives a shit about the drama anymore. It's obviously up to him if he wants to post them, but I highly doubt that anyone will complain that he's cheating now.

[kimo_xvirus]

Tell that to him

[Qaatar]

I've never spoken to the guy...you obviously know him. Hell, I wasn't even part of the drama to begin with.

[tatsurd-cacocaco]

Well, he seem to distance himself from demos community and DSDA after the incident. I only hope that time will do the rest.

Qaatar said:

I highly doubt that anyone will complain that he's cheating now.

Sadly, as far as I read the thread, some people still seem to doubt him.

[TendaMonsta]

If I were him I'd just say screw it. I'm sending the demo in anyway because I (not to long ago) realized that people are very judgmental and there is nothing you can possibly do to stop it. People will have their own opinions and thoughts even though they could be false...I just don't get why he can't just send it in and be proud of all the work he did.

[Use]

tatsurd-cacocaco said:

Sadly, as far as I read the thread, some people still seem to doubt him.

Some people might, but like most things they probably found something else to do and promptly forgot about it. Besides he posted a new demo in that thread and everything seemed to cool down.

Anyway welcome aboard SAV88, looking forward to more Scythe demos! Any plans to record some Boom specific titles? I'm sure there's a couple 'Community Chest' like projects around here that would benefit from your attention..*wink* hehe.

[SAV88]

To TendaMonsta, Kimo, Qaatar, Tatsurd: not much to add. I also trust Okuplok's demos, heartily support him and think he should have no scruples about returning to community.

Use3D said:

Anyway welcome aboard SAV88, looking forward to more Scythe demos! Any plans to record some Boom specific titles? I'm sure there's a couple 'Community Chest' like projects around here that would benefit from your attention..*wink* hehe.

Thanks! I might give attention to some worthy Boom specific maps in the future, but at the moment I'm planning to continue improving the times for more classic mapsets (such as my most favorite WAD, Hell Revealed). There are tremendous loads of room for improvement in various Compet-N-style categories.

[TendaMonsta]

Keep the demos coming. Hell it makes me want to do some more speedruns!

May I upload some of your demos to youtube SAV88?

[Qaatar]

TendaMonsta said:

May I upload some of your demos to youtube SAV88?

I realize that you are trying to be courteous with your question, but I think that it's a silly one. Unless SAV88 plans to upload them himself (which he stated that he doesn't), why shouldn't you? The very reason people share demos publicly is to get others to watch them.

Demos, once shared, become public domain in my opinion. As long as you properly and clearly credit the demo to SAV88, I don't see any problem.

I suppose that I'm a little defensive here, as I do the same thing on my channel, and I've never asked Stx-Vile, Belial, Henning, etc. for permission. However, I don't feel that I need to, as long as I give clear and proper credit.

[Grazza]

Actually, that can be argued either way. Is a demo a creative work (like a piece of creative writing or a piece of music), and thus the intellectual property of its creator, or is it a factual record of events (in the same way as the bare undeniable facts of a sporting contest, or the bare moves of a chess game) and thus not subject to copyright protection?

Given that lack of clarity, it is certainly wise to ask permission before doing anything with other people's demos, other than watching them. Whether it is strictly necessary, or simply respectful, is less clear. It's not as if there will ever be a legal test-case to clear that question up. :)

The text-files that normally accompany lmps don't tend to address this, or to grant any permissions explicitly.

[SAV88]

Qaatar said:

Unless SAV88 plans to upload them himself (which he stated that he doesn't), why shouldn't you? The very reason people share demos publicly is to get others to watch them.

Demos, once shared, become public domain in my opinion. As long as you properly and clearly credit the demo to SAV88, I don't see any problem.

That's right. I won't mind if you distribute my demos as videos, TendaMonsta. And it would be nice if you also include copies of my textfiles in the info-blocks for corresponding demos.

[didierbertrand]

[Qaatar]

Grazza said:

Given that lack of clarity, it is certainly wise to ask permission before doing anything with other people's demos, other than watching them. Whether it is strictly necessary, or simply respectful, is less clear. It's not as if there will ever be a legal test-case to clear that question up. :)

There are certainly differing perspectives one can take on this issue, but to me, I view it from a consequentialist perspective. What exactly is the problem with sharing the demo on a more widely viewed public forum (i.e. Youtube), given my parameters on proper citation, even if it is intellectual property? For one thing, I don't believe that this has any potential impact on broader reaching consequences, so all problems are only localized for this specific issue. There clearly is no misrepresentation of authorship, nor are there any potential problems that can arise out of maliciousness of the viewership. Furthermore, there is no possible way that I am profiting from this either financially or otherwise.

I made the mistake of leaving the emails of the authors in the text files when I first started posting demos, but dew kindly pointed out to me that it's very unwise, and I quickly edited the descriptions to snip the emails. Otherwise, I believe that posting demos on Youtube for a wider audience is actually doing the demo recorders a favor, as it allows a larger audience to further appreciate their talents.

The only objection I can think of, is if the demo recorder in question, for some specific reason, does not like the general Youtube audience. I can't possibly think of a reason why other than perhaps elitism, but that's another issue, and I would like to think that none of the authors whose demos I've uploaded would have an objection based on that rather far-fetched conjecture.

[Pirx]

wow. i hope i can watch them all soon. the fact you did these with keyboard only makes your achievement even more impressive. it shows how important clever route planning is for a speedrun, before all other things.

[SAV88]

Thank you, Skulltag developer!

Torr Samaho said:

it shows how important clever route planning is for a speedrun, before all other things.

That's right. In late 2004 and early 2005, when I started playing in the UV Max, UV-Fast, UV Speed and NM Speed categories, I just mindlessly ran through a map without any serious plan. Now my time-hunt on a level is unthinkable without thorough preparation with savegames. I try different sequences of moves and shots, estimate their efficiency and success rate. And even after starting to actually record a demo, I continue practising the task. After 5-20 hours of recording attempts, the run seeps into my subconscious and I become able to execute it more easily and with less shaky playing. That's why many of my runs (such as one of my personal favorites, GRA1-557.LMP) have long stories of getting the time down (sometimes they are detailedly described in my textfiles). For example, on November 10 I had 14:52 on MM28 UV-Fast, but on November 12 I improved it to 13:39, and I felt that November 10 is a far past :-)

[Gez]

SAV88 said:

Thank you, Skulltag developer!

Do not confuse Torr Samaho with Torr_Samaho! :p

(Torr, you should make yourself a signature saying that you're not the Skulltag Torr.)

[Pirx]

lol, not this again. i just happened to read the same stuff as the skulltag programmer, and had no idea there´s another one using the same nick, of all people in the small doom community. i guess the dw staff can change people´s nicks?

[SAV88]

Torr Samaho said:

i guess the dw staff can change people´s nicks?

Here is the answer.

[Pirx]

ok, i see.

anyway, that´s a lot of dedication, SAV88. 5-20 hours of recording attempts... i wonder how much time people spend on average with their recordings.